There are many examples of 400hp stock port FDs


Look up some old best motoring videos fds on stock internals.

search rx7club.com plenty of 400hp examples on stock port engines

 

Stock port is not the same as from the factory. Even the 20B Cosmo was only 300HP.

 

Yes, and every one of those will meet emissions, noise, and fuel economy standards for 1972.

 

OMFG.

Quick question for you.

Did you actually read my post?
Did you understand the words that were written?

How many of the vehicles you want me to look at were released at the 400 hp mark, BY MAZDA, from the factory, when you could originally buy them at a dealership?

HOW MANY?

I was not asking how many cars people took a ball peen hammer and a chisel to, and made 400 hp with, I asked for STOCK, brand new, just rolled off the assembly line condition.

And you knew this, but you ignored it, just so you could post.

Why?

Did you think your retort was going to make me say "Oh my, I didn't know that Mazda released cars that HAD 400 hp from the factory. You are so much smarter than me, please be my best buddy."

Nope, no chance of that happening.
I just can't understand what you were thinking when you decided to post your "proof".

You are going to be so disappointed when Mazda doesn't release a car with 400 hp. I'm so sorry for you.

BC.

 

I agree they have never competed in the pony car market, that is obvious.

Bottom end of market contains 1 commercially successful entrant: the Miata. The BRZ/FRS twins sell in small numbers, like less than 1k each and I betcha won't get a second gen. I doubt it's been a financially successful venture for them.

Your horsepower numbers are ignoring the march of time. Your numbers would have been competitive in 2012, or maybe today. Not 2020. 300hp is the base hp number for a base Boxster, today, base price $56k and a base price Boxster does not exsist. They are all 65k+

For the RX to compete, it will have to offer equal or better specs than established brands at that price.

The majority of car purchasers have proven that the 'driving experience' is not particularly valuable to them. This is why 'drivers cars' die: for the same $$, you can 'have more' and go faster and/or have a bigger car. American car buyers have cast this vote many times. That's why I offered the examples of S2k, Elise, Rx8, 4c, etc. Superb drivers cars, dead or dying. The Miata is the only enduring exception, and it's sales numbers are way down. Look at BMW, the traitors! their car driving experience is now pretty sucky. Car buyers pay for space, speed, bragging rights, brand perception.

For the RX to be a commercial success it must offer these qualities. We assume (hope) Mazda will make it a 'driver's car'.

I stick by the 400hp target as a 'must have' not for the experience, but for the marketing. I personally would go as high as about $50k; beyond that I'd hold out for a proven, 5th gen (by then) midengine, superb Cayman.

 

A huge number of Porsche's that are sold every year are fully custom ordered units, by the customer. Just about all of the units that you see sitting on the dealer lot are ones that dealer itself specs out in order to have a variety of options in order to meet the typical off the street buyer's wants and needs.

If you want a bare Cayman with no or very few options, you either have to locate one of the very few ones that a dealer orders, scattered all across the country, or you have to custom order your car to your spartan spec.

As a member of a few Porsche Cayman/Boxster forums, there are quite a few spartan build cars on the forums, and those owners are just as proud of their cars as the ones who stuff their car full of options. They also tend to keep their cars longer than the average Cayman owner, too.

I believe if you actually look at the combined sales of the BRZ and FR-s, you will see that they have been outselling the MX-5 in the US market since their arrival to the market.

Mazda builds their entire lineup for those few car buyers who wants a "driver's car" in their driveway, compared to their competition. The whole purpose of the Miata is to be a drivers car in its purest form.

Well, that, and the fact that the average buyer of a Miata is older, more educated, and wealthier than your average BRZ buyer, and that what they really want for their mid life crisis machine is a convertible, but that's all besides the point.

The Miata actually went backwards with HP from NC to ND, and yet their overall performance numbers went up. You make the car light enough, with a responsive chassis, and a 275 hp car can out perform a 300 hp car.

This has been, and always will be the Mazda way of building a sports car.

Marketing?
This is Mazda we're talking about.
The one car company who has never been able to put together a decent marketing message in I seriously don't know how long.

Try and think of all the times in Mazda's history where their marketing message was "We make the most hp out of all of our competition".

Now compare that with how often they talk about being a "Driver's Car" car company.

Now tell me, do you REALLY BELIEVE hp will ever be a focus point of marketing a product of theirs?

Mazda will sell a driver's car, you can count on that.
But, it doesn't need to be a 400 hp machine in order to do it.

And if you look at the way Mazda has done business over their history, you will know that they are not going to change the way they do things at this time.

Not for marketing, and not for HP junkies.

BC.

 

And I completely forgot to mention this one last fact:

The Porsche Cayman is the penultimate Driver's Car.
In it's top form, the GT-4, it does not make 400 hp.
And the top form also STARTS at $85k (hahahahahahahahhhhahaaaa!).

Porsche's bread and butter car, the 911, makes 370 hp, and starts at $89,400.

Mazda isn't making a 400 hp car.
The hp target is somewhere between 250 and 275.

Light weight will help them compete against a base Cayman with 300 hp in overall performance.
A nicer interior will help them compete against the FR-S and BRZ, and the sad sack 4C with 200 to 240 hp.
A nicer exterior design will help them compete against the BMW 2 series.

BC.

 

^ Agreed. You obviously "get" Mazda's motoring philosophy, particularly as it pertains to sports cars. Sadly, most here don't.

 

my understanding is they broke 300hp from the 16x form engine like 3-5 years ago. I don't forsee that being a problem from whatever they produce with that engine size.

 

Too bad that they never decided to put that into production.
Nor the Furai as a Halo car, to compete against the Ford GT, Nissan GTR, etc.

There are very few car companies that spend research and development dollars on an entire engine design, who then just decide to leave a perfectly operational engine shelved. The 16X must not have met some criteria they felt was critical 10 years ago.

Besides, SkyActiv is a different design philosophy.
HP most likely isn't their target anymore, torque, economy and reduced emissions is. If it revs slower, runs cleaner, but makes more torque, and lasts longer, that's a true win situation for Mazda.

BC.

 

Again I think you ignore the march of time. We're not analyzing what would be competitive today, we're guessing about the future.
What will be the 2020 Cayman/Boxster/911 hp numbers?
The FD at the time of it's release had similar numbers and better performance than the direct competition. If Mazda is truly making a Halo car, they'll have to do that again. I could be wrong. But I bet I'm right.
Crisp $20 says it's within 10% of 400hp what's your wager?

 

I'll take that bet. Like taking candy from a baby.

I still win if there is no RX by 2020.

 

I want in on this action.

 

Wager is offered to BC, you'll have to go find your own candy-carrying baby of course, no RX, no bet!

Sadly, I'm almost willing to bet there will be no RX at all by 2020... but I don't like to bet on sad things.

 

The problem with all the arguments against a 400hp engine from Mazda are the previous rotaries were smaller. An increase in displacement means an increase in HP. They got 230 hp on a N/A 1.3 liter, so I have no problem believing they can get 300hp out of a NA 1.6 liter. Add a turbo to that and they can put out 400hp easily. Now I don't think they will. I think it will be 350hp and a big jump in torque. They seem to want to work on drivability more than top end power. Reduce weight, around ~300 lb-ft of torque, 350 hp and you will have an amazing car.

 

 

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the "SkyActiv-R" has its roots in the 16x. In fact, I'd bet it's a marketing rebrand with a few advances.

Also: the Furai? That was a concept car based on a Le Mans LMP2 chassis with a 20B running on E100. No way that's going into production.

 

DON'T YOU CRUSH MY DREAMS!

 

you misunderstand. i wrote "16x form" for a reason. they have never stopped trying to put that "form" into production. there have been changes over time based on their testing and engineering and goals. the current form with the swapped placement of intake and exhaust is built on the taller narrower "stroker" 16x form.

true. did you see the pics of the RX-Vision dash? that redline is not accidental



and i should point out they engineers have been told it doesn't HAVE to be a 2 rotor...

and the race cars like the Star/Pro Mazda Series and Bob Bondurant School cars were actually dynoing out at 250- 260 at the crank.

 

718 cayman/boxster will be done in 2019 so 2020 will be a new model and probably a new engine and standard to chase so even at the base level now in 2020 9 times out of 10 its going to be higher than the current base level so a 275hp car will not get the job done if it's under powered I don't care how great the driving dynamics (but miata, that's another story) are its still going to be niche market. I don't see why mazda wouldn't want to make sales and broaden the appeal of a rotary sports car.

 

Because the rotary reputation is **** with all potential buyers except a few purists. They had their chance at redemption with the RX-8 and blew it.

 

Good sales and broad appeal won't happen with a Porsche price tag.

 

10% under 400 hp is 360 hp.
That's a pretty wide margin.

But for $20, I will state the engine, if it's a N/A twin rotor, and installed in a mass produced sports car for $45k and under, and hits the world market by October 15th 2020, will not be over 375 hp. Can't be a Japan only one-off pre-production machine.
No precedent in Mazda's history, and I will back that up.

BC.

 

****? Uh, no. In fact, people who really know cars – professional people who love cars and make their living knowing the ins and outs and subtleties of cars – love the RX-8:

Life After 8000 RPM: Lotus Elise and Mazda RX-8 - Automobile Magazine

And that's a fact. Sorry if it doesn't jive with your "rotary is ****" view of the world. Fortunately, folks like you won't be the ones determining the future of the rotary engine.

 

In other news toyota is back at it MK5 supra? Yes!

2018 2019 Toyota Supra Forum FT-1 Concept MKV Generation: Supramkv.com