dmp

Keep in mind, there's a good chance if Mazda sold a '300hp' rx8, it'd only put about 220hp to the wheels.

Sephiroth

^ Thats bs. Not sure where you are basing your claims, but no car is going to have that much drivetrain loss, period. The current RX-8 puts down 190- 200ish at the wheels, there is no reason to think a 300hp RX-8 will put down less than 250.

dmp

Except the current RX8s do not dyno at 200-ish. They dyno around 170-180...based on a 238hp rating. IF RX8s dyno'd at 200whp, I'd be relatively sure Mazda had a good handle on just how much HP their Renesis makes. I believe they came to the 238hp rating, not by testing, but by averages, and math and formula. NA and NB Miatas lose ~26hp thru their drivetrain. The RX8's drivetrain isn't much different, and it would seem RX8s lose close to 60hp in some cases - that or the engine isn't making 238hp.

Sephiroth

RX-8s do not actually put down 170. Don't take dynos as gospel, 60hp loss through the drivetrain is impossible.

dmp

Search this forum, and you'll find MANY RX8s dyno less than 185whp. I agree, 60hp loss seems impossible. Even my car's 52hp loss seems impossible. What are the alternatives then?

1) The average RX8 DOES have 50-60hp losses thru the drivetrain.
2) The car MAKES 238hp, but that 238hp can't be measured on a dyno due to other reasons (ECU pulling power?)
3) The Renesis in the average RX8 makes substantially less than the avertised 238hp

TODreamer

I dont think it will happen.

RX8s generally arent much of a money maker... they dont sell and the reason why they dont sell is not because its underpowered.. its because its an "enthusiasts car".. the avergage person hears that it has a rotary which is "different" and they're not touching it....the rotary is good but it needs more R&D and work put in in order to make a believer out of the average dude

So from a biz standpoint... why bother with an MS version? They'll lose even more money

Sephiroth

You can look at all the dynos you want. Dynos never tell the whole story. Since you know how to search, you can find the answer.

QBallz

The Renesis just doesn't make 238hp, my guess would be more around 200-210hp. I would say that option #2 is partially correct, the ECU is pulling power by having a super crappy tune.

dmp

Steiner

Is the MS3 supposed to be FWD or AWD?

TODreamer

I'm certain it will be FWD.... which would make it a good slugger with the SRT4

VikingDJ

Definitely #3. I know my RX8 did not have 238hp, but it didn't really bother me much. I also agree that #2 has truth to it. The car should dyno at 200whp, and not 170-185 like most cars get. the S2K is rated at 240hp, and puts out 200+whp on a constant basis. Indeed, 50-60 hp loss through drivetrain is impossible, which can only mean that on many RX8s, they are not producing their advertised 238hp. Plain and simple, for many rx8s, the engine is currently undertuned, and underachieving.

Japan8

Yes and the Renesis is NA side port rotary. The 13B-REW was twin turbo charged peripherial port rotary. The Zero-overlap created by the use of side-ports helped greatly with the emissions situation, however, don't forget about things like cat light off time and the fact that emissions standards are only getting tighter.

Japan8

Yes there is only one rotary engine production line. The original one... where engines are still assembled by hand. You make a business case for upgrading/automating the line and Mazda/Ford will probably jump on it.

As far as the seals go... I do wish people would use the search function. The Renesis has BETTER, STRONGER seals than the 13B-REW (FD). The design and materials used are better. Different seals aren't needed. The lack of peripherial ports also helps with not blowing an apex seal on detonation.

Cooling hasn't been a major issue on the RX-8 and it wasn't on the later models of the FD... as they had upgraded the cooling system and fixed the problems with the turbos.

There will not be two ***-hauling AWD sedans. The Mazdaspeed 3 will be FWD and it's engine will be de-tuned. It will not be a Evo/STi killer... especially after the EvoX comes out. It WILL be a SRT-4/Cobalt-SS killer.

MS MX-5? Not for awhile. Others tied to beat the Miata with faster cars... bigger engines or FI. It wasn't enough... the Miata is still here and they are all gone. How long did it take for a MS Miata to come out? Ok then. Besides... there are already MS parts out for the MX-5... just like the RX-8... bodykit, suspension, exhaust, interior bits...

The MS8 may yet come. It'll come when it comes. If a DI version of the Renesis is due out... they sure as hell aren't going to ALSO put FI on it until it's been well-tested. DI first. FI later in the MS model. DI in 2007 and maybe FI MS model in 2008... just in time for the new-gen RX-8 in 2009/2010. Pattern seem familiar? yep... just like the Protege/Mazda3, Miata/MX-5, and now the Mazda6. Get the picture?

Skunk

Slow your roll, tiger. I never suggested that they need a new or automated assembly line. I just pointed out the unlikeliness of them building a normal and FI-ready performance engine on the same line. Hence why I imagine if they do such a thing, it'll be after the current RX-8 as we know it now goes out of production.

I know what changes they made to the RENESIS, and if you re-read my post you'll see I was pointing out the changes they would need to make from the *13B-REW*. And while they did eventually fix the FD's cooling system, the late-generation turbos still always had issues. Not that the US ever saw those changes.

I didn't know that the side-porting improved the reliability of the apex seals on detonation. I've still seen plenty of blown RENESIS engines so i imagine it didn't help that much.

Well I stand corrected on the MS3 having AWD. I imagine it will fair *very* well against the Cobalt SS/Ion Redline/TRD tC. Shouldn't be a direct competitor to the SRT-4 since that car is going out of production and the replacement won't be in the same class.

Nobody has ever made a direct competitor to the Miata as far as i know. The Solstice/Sky compete with the Miata on it's own ground. Same price range, class, performance, etc. Like I said, when the SS/Redline versions come out later this year I think it may light a fire under Mazda's ***. I think Mazda will want to put something out there to match them.

That's what I've been saying all along, I don't think it will happen until the next generation RX8 (or RX-7/RX-9 as the case may be) comes out.

The pattern is familiar, I just think Mazda has better business sense than to blindly follow that model when GM is stepping on the Miata's toes.

Japan8

Actually, if they could make the sales, I think an automated or more moderized assembly line would help to improve quality and consistency with the engine. It'd also probably help to lower the cost of production per engine (less expensive rotary powered cars ).

I'm not fully versed on the changes and results, but it seems that the final years of the FD in Japan were fairly problem free.

I understand where you're coming from, but the FD stuff isn't in production. The Renesis stuff is. Changes should be discussed from that point since that it what is available on-hand, brand new from the assembly line. That and the fact that the REW DOESN'T pass emissions today and the Renesis does.

Ask Rotarygod. As Mazdamaniac. Ask Charles Hill. Search for threads on it in the "Aftermarket and Mazdaspeed parts forum". It has been mentioned many times. Engines that have blown up... FI'd ones was due to tuning issues and the number of them is still slim. NA engines? Even Mazda seems to be researching that issue which has primarily been limited to one region or a particular production group of cars.

Ah... I did forget about the death of the SRT-4. Don't forget the Civic Si as another competitor. It'll do VERY well against this car too.

There was a convertible in the Mercury line that was a car Ford brought up from Ford of Australia.... called it the Capri I believe. There was also the more recent MR-2 Spyder.


We are in complete agreement here...

DARKMAZ8

Anyone know if the ms6 drivetrain can be swapped into the ms3?

therm8

Capri was fwd. The similar Lotus Elan was fwd also.

slimon

It would be cool if this can happen.

RX-Hachi

They've done it before; building both Turbo and NA versions of the rotary for the 1st gen RX-7 (turbo was not released in the US) and the 2nd gen RX-7. They could do it again if they choose to.

There have been others over the years to challenge the Miata. Toyota's MR-S comes to mind as a fairly recent entry. The new MG was reborn due to the Miata's success. In the early '90's, I recall Mercury having some kind of cheap roadster car, can't remember what it was called now. But it quickly faded away. But you're right, the Solstice/Sky is probably the Miata's first serious threat since the Z3. The Z3 wasn't a direct competitor, but it had Miata owners worried.

However, ever since the Miata was introduced in '90, people have cried for more power. Cars like the S2000, Z3/Z4, and Boxster all with much more power (but none have sold better than the MX-5.) Mazda has been very slow to respond and even the previous MS Miata didn't go as far as many thought it should have. So I don't think a 260 HP Turbo Solstice is going give them any reason to rush out with a new MS MX-5 anytime soon. We'll hopefully see our MS 8 first, but who knows when that will be.

Skunk

Hey that would work out better for you and me. I'd be all for it, but like you said, good luck convincing the head sheds.

It was my understanding that while the late generations turbos were better than the USDM, the car always suffered from vacuum line problems. I don 't live in Japan and this is just word of mouth, so eh.

I know it would have made more sense than that but I was sort of replying to someone else in the thread who mentioned improvements they'd need to make from the REW.

I said i didn't know that, not that I didn't believe you. I've still seen popped motors, so I imagine the design will always be prone to apex seal failure on detonation, even if that helps.

The Capri was FF I think. The S2000, Z3, etc. are very comparible cars but they are way out of the Miata's price bracket. The Mr. 2's lack of storage scared most potential buyers off. The Solstice and Sky are close enough to the Miata that potential buyers are really going to look closely at both cars. Right now, the new MX-5 just *slightly* edges them out. Slightly more storage, easier to use top, slightly better handling. But very, very soon you'll be able to find a Solstice GXP for about the same price as a loaded Miata. And that is going to be a little troublesome for the Miata. And it's going to pretty much blow the S2000 out of the water (though that car is about due next year anyway).

shaolin

Geez...this is semantics. You guys are arguing over a bunch of BULLSHIT that nobody but Mazda knows.

This whole thread is a waste of bandwidth...it's nothing but speculation.

mike1324a

And you point? Problem?

Japan8

^^ ditto... if you don't like it... unsubscribe from the thread and don't read it. Problem solved.

rotary crazy

nope, the 99 to 2002 cars turbo systen was simplify and use less than 1/2 the vacun lines.