MIffed at MazdaSpeed6
12-04-2005 | 07:11 PM
#76
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 229
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From: Portsmouth NH
I'll have a better idea tomorrow with ye old butt dyno. I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed but my 8 sure feels gutless when it's hot out, espically with the AC on blowing less hot air. I can bet an 8's a hell of a lot slower than mid 6's if one was so inclined to abuse an 8 when hot out.
12-04-2005 | 07:22 PM
#77
1st time rotorhead
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 449
Likes: 0
From: Closter, NJ
Originally Posted by Steiner
Danica will buy some bigger hoots after a few trips to the winner's circle and a little more prize money. I'd still hit it "as is" though. 
12-04-2005 | 08:58 PM
#78
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 839
Likes: 2
Well the info from the MPS 6 indicates it might be utilizing the same radiator as the 6i. And on the standard 6, the timing retards (like the 8) at 200, 210,220F and above.
Unlike the 6i though, the coolant in the MPS 6 is also tasked with cooling the turbo, transfer case, and engine oil.
I'm hoping its just a mistake and that the technical highlights booklet left out the radiator upgrade. This could explain why some of the owners in hotter climates haven't been as wow'd with the pickup. Could also be the whole dealers screwing up with 87 and 93 octane (instant 80 whp or so loss if you run 87).
I'm quite interested in myself, so just sharing data and trying to figure things out.
BTW if for some reason you feel you might not need your car for a few months, CP-E in MD is looking for a donor car for creation of a turboback exhaust and FMIC to possibly get rid of the massively heavy hood.
http://www.cp-e.com
Unlike the 6i though, the coolant in the MPS 6 is also tasked with cooling the turbo, transfer case, and engine oil.
I'm hoping its just a mistake and that the technical highlights booklet left out the radiator upgrade. This could explain why some of the owners in hotter climates haven't been as wow'd with the pickup. Could also be the whole dealers screwing up with 87 and 93 octane (instant 80 whp or so loss if you run 87).
I'm quite interested in myself, so just sharing data and trying to figure things out
.BTW if for some reason you feel you might not need your car for a few months, CP-E in MD is looking for a donor car for creation of a turboback exhaust and FMIC to possibly get rid of the massively heavy hood.
http://www.cp-e.com
Last edited by crossbow; 12-04-2005 at 09:02 PM.
12-04-2005 | 09:16 PM
#80
Blue By You
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,717
Likes: 0
From: Milwaukee
Originally Posted by neit_jnf
is heatsoak a big issue with subarus? all of them use a top mount ic, I don't see why the ms6's would be any different
Also, the claim of the car running a 6.4 0-60 and 14.2 1/4 mile in the heat seems off. That would indicate that in cooler temps where it has run 5.3 0-60 that you could shave around 1.5 secs off the 1/4 mile time. I don't see the Mazdaspeed 6 running anywhere near a 12.7, or even anywhere near the 12s in stock form.
12-05-2005 | 07:06 AM
#81
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 839
Likes: 2
Well ike, to support your argument...The reviewer which said the MPS 6 ran a 0-60 of 5.3 seconds also said it outbraked a Z06...lol.
Now the aussie version is 20 bhp down from the US spec (91 vs 93 octane), but that shouldn't make a 1.1 second difference in 0-60 times. The MPS 6 times they got were almost identical to the legacy GT's (about 0.1 off 0-60 and 0.2 off the 1/4 to the MPS 6).
As per the differences between the Sti/legacy intercoolers and MPS 6. Here's a cut/paste from the 6club boards, from the legacy boards.
Now the aussie version is 20 bhp down from the US spec (91 vs 93 octane), but that shouldn't make a 1.1 second difference in 0-60 times. The MPS 6 times they got were almost identical to the legacy GT's (about 0.1 off 0-60 and 0.2 off the 1/4 to the MPS 6).
As per the differences between the Sti/legacy intercoolers and MPS 6. Here's a cut/paste from the 6club boards, from the legacy boards.
Quoted from LegacyGT.com
"I looked a little bit more there does seem to be some issue with less than 93 gas AND persistent heatsoak in the dead of winter.
There is ducting yes but how much air you think is gonna move through 2 plastic ducts when loafing around town. Not much if any.
Air has to move through the front grille positioned in front of a hot radiator then curve into an increasing volume area. By the time it reaches the IC it has no flow velocity. Unless you are going at highway speeds it seems pretty ineffective. At least in the subaru with the aluminum hood and open hoodscoop the IC can dissapate energy through conduction and convection.
On top of that the IC is sitting on top of the engine and its rearward facing turbo and exhaust components. So the rising hot air from this will counter any flow that may be generated by the ducting.
Additionally we know in order to acheive ventalation the IC must have free flowing space in front of and behind it. Behind the Ms6 IC there is an engine a firewall and hot exhaust side components.
If you look at the ms6 compared to the subaru TMIC you will see that subaru has alot of air space behind the TMIC and is really not on top on any exahust components. If you remove a subaru TMIC you will find a large volumous space with the transmission sitting well beneath it and open access to the underflow of the car. The turbo is beside it but not underneath it.
In the ms6 the TMIC is boxed in by the engine turbo and firewall. There is no direct flow path. There is also no convection path as it is insulated by the plastic ducting and the unvented hood.
Couple this with its requirement for 93 or higher gas, its higher compression ratio, and I suspect that this car will be shiatsu dog slow in the summer.
DISI is good but it cant compensate for poor design. It is still gasoline and it is still spark ignited. I reduces detoanation but it wont produce miracles."
and...
"Concerning details...
"The sales man told me the car goes into grandma mode after several laps of hard driving. He said the power drops out quite a bit. This concerns me since I plan to drive it hard on the track multiple times a day for at least 20 minutes per run. maybe this explains the symptoms a couple of you saw?"
This was quoted on mazda6club.com... There are also other threads about persistent heatsoak issues even in subfreezing winter weather. Perhaps this is the reason why they waited till the dead of winter to release it.
It is dissapointing but, It dosent surprise me considering the location of the intercooler and no direct ventalation through the hood. The hood does have plastic ducting but at low speeds or even moderate speeds it seems that it would be an impossibility for the intercooler to recieve any significant airflow. With no air velocity or direct access to dissapate radiant heat the cooler looks like it would soak if you left the car at idle for too long.
The motor also has a rear facing exhaust manifold. To which the turbocharger is bolted to. Which is bolted immidiately to a downpipe with a rather large catylyst. All this equipment is sandwiched between the motor and the firewall. Wanna guess where they positioned the intercooler?...
Right on top of all this lovely equipment. "
and...
2/3 of the intercooler is sitting above the motor. All of the corrugated heat exchange area is sitting above the valve cover.
The intercooler wont work by drawing air over the top of it. Air must be directed through the core. Through the core means it must flow through the corrugated part onto the valve cover where there is no room.
Turbo manifolds glow RED hot when pushed. Were talking about over 1200 degrees at the manifold and over 500 degrees a few inches ambient to the area. That turbo will be cooking.
Im not saying subaru designed its TMIC perfect. In fact no TMIC is perfect. Its just a flawed concept to begin with.
However if you look at the area under the subaru TMIC there is alot of room. Additionally the hoodscoop has a splitter on it to direct air to the turbo to ventalate the radiant heat. Additionally from the hoodscoop there is a plate that directs air straight through the core.
http://www.harmanmotive.com/index.ph...os=0,100000,29
Heres a good example of the Legacy's intercooler position. You can see where the IC is mounted and when it is removed for an FMIC how the area behind it is pretty much empty.
"I looked a little bit more there does seem to be some issue with less than 93 gas AND persistent heatsoak in the dead of winter.
There is ducting yes but how much air you think is gonna move through 2 plastic ducts when loafing around town. Not much if any.
Air has to move through the front grille positioned in front of a hot radiator then curve into an increasing volume area. By the time it reaches the IC it has no flow velocity. Unless you are going at highway speeds it seems pretty ineffective. At least in the subaru with the aluminum hood and open hoodscoop the IC can dissapate energy through conduction and convection.
On top of that the IC is sitting on top of the engine and its rearward facing turbo and exhaust components. So the rising hot air from this will counter any flow that may be generated by the ducting.
Additionally we know in order to acheive ventalation the IC must have free flowing space in front of and behind it. Behind the Ms6 IC there is an engine a firewall and hot exhaust side components.
If you look at the ms6 compared to the subaru TMIC you will see that subaru has alot of air space behind the TMIC and is really not on top on any exahust components. If you remove a subaru TMIC you will find a large volumous space with the transmission sitting well beneath it and open access to the underflow of the car. The turbo is beside it but not underneath it.
In the ms6 the TMIC is boxed in by the engine turbo and firewall. There is no direct flow path. There is also no convection path as it is insulated by the plastic ducting and the unvented hood.
Couple this with its requirement for 93 or higher gas, its higher compression ratio, and I suspect that this car will be shiatsu dog slow in the summer.
DISI is good but it cant compensate for poor design. It is still gasoline and it is still spark ignited. I reduces detoanation but it wont produce miracles."
and...
"Concerning details...
"The sales man told me the car goes into grandma mode after several laps of hard driving. He said the power drops out quite a bit. This concerns me since I plan to drive it hard on the track multiple times a day for at least 20 minutes per run. maybe this explains the symptoms a couple of you saw?"
This was quoted on mazda6club.com... There are also other threads about persistent heatsoak issues even in subfreezing winter weather. Perhaps this is the reason why they waited till the dead of winter to release it.
It is dissapointing but, It dosent surprise me considering the location of the intercooler and no direct ventalation through the hood. The hood does have plastic ducting but at low speeds or even moderate speeds it seems that it would be an impossibility for the intercooler to recieve any significant airflow. With no air velocity or direct access to dissapate radiant heat the cooler looks like it would soak if you left the car at idle for too long.
The motor also has a rear facing exhaust manifold. To which the turbocharger is bolted to. Which is bolted immidiately to a downpipe with a rather large catylyst. All this equipment is sandwiched between the motor and the firewall. Wanna guess where they positioned the intercooler?...
Right on top of all this lovely equipment. "
and...
2/3 of the intercooler is sitting above the motor. All of the corrugated heat exchange area is sitting above the valve cover.
The intercooler wont work by drawing air over the top of it. Air must be directed through the core. Through the core means it must flow through the corrugated part onto the valve cover where there is no room.
Turbo manifolds glow RED hot when pushed. Were talking about over 1200 degrees at the manifold and over 500 degrees a few inches ambient to the area. That turbo will be cooking.
Im not saying subaru designed its TMIC perfect. In fact no TMIC is perfect. Its just a flawed concept to begin with.
However if you look at the area under the subaru TMIC there is alot of room. Additionally the hoodscoop has a splitter on it to direct air to the turbo to ventalate the radiant heat. Additionally from the hoodscoop there is a plate that directs air straight through the core.
http://www.harmanmotive.com/index.ph...os=0,100000,29
Heres a good example of the Legacy's intercooler position. You can see where the IC is mounted and when it is removed for an FMIC how the area behind it is pretty much empty.
Last edited by crossbow; 12-05-2005 at 07:09 AM.
12-05-2005 | 01:38 PM
#82
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
From: Portsmouth NH
Just got back from about a 30 minute drive in a GT Speed6. I didn't abuse the car but I can tell you that it will no doubt break 6 seconds in any friggin heat. It was around 50 today so by no means warm. The car has got some serious power, I would put it right between a 06 WRX and the beastly STI. Breaks felt good, steering tight but I'm spoiled, shifter a tad vague, just needed to be broken in. All in all I was very impressed with the car and will be purchasing one any day. I might add before I drove the car I drove three subies I'm cross shopping, Legacy GT stock WRX 06 and a 06 STI. All great cars but I'm a Mazda man! All the subies boxer were too loud for me in a bad way. Lag on GT and WRX was far more pronouced, I couldn't feel any in the STI I was too busy laughing at how fast the needle swung up!!! I think the Mazda is more civil but still a great performer, I'm pysched to go get mine off the truck in 5 days
12-05-2005 | 01:52 PM
#83
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 839
Likes: 2
As I mentioned earlier, the aussies already put its 0-60 at 6.4 seconds, and its 1/4 in 14.2.
The canadians did much better, but depending on your environment it seems to vary wildly in power. (Which may be indicative of major heatsoak issues).
Just today another member test drove one, and actually felt his 6s MTX pulled harder in the middle gears...
So basically review wise...
Best time 0-60 of 5.3 seconds. (10F Ambient or lower)
Worst time 0-60 of 6.4 seconds (80F Ambient+, -20 bhp from 91 octane)
The canadians did much better, but depending on your environment it seems to vary wildly in power. (Which may be indicative of major heatsoak issues).
Just today another member test drove one, and actually felt his 6s MTX pulled harder in the middle gears...
So basically review wise...
Best time 0-60 of 5.3 seconds. (10F Ambient or lower)
Worst time 0-60 of 6.4 seconds (80F Ambient+, -20 bhp from 91 octane)
12-05-2005 | 04:20 PM
#85
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 839
Likes: 2
Make sure to only put 93 octane (or 94 if available). The car loses an absolutely massive amount of power if you accidently put 87 octane in. (it cuts all boost past 4200 rpm if it detects less then 91 octane gas).
12-05-2005 | 04:28 PM
#86
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,887
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by crossbow
Best time 0-60 of 5.3 seconds. (10F Ambient or lower)
Worst time 0-60 of 6.4 seconds (80F Ambient+, -20 bhp from 91 octane)
Worst time 0-60 of 6.4 seconds (80F Ambient+, -20 bhp from 91 octane)
Infact, it's 41F today where this car was tested.
Last edited by BlueEyes; 12-05-2005 at 04:31 PM.
12-05-2005 | 04:31 PM
#87
Registered
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 463
Likes: 0
From: los angeles, ca
Originally Posted by crossbow
Make sure to only put 93 octane (or 94 if available). The car loses an absolutely massive amount of power if you accidently put 87 octane in. (it cuts all boost past 4200 rpm if it detects less then 91 octane gas).
12-05-2005 | 04:36 PM
#89
I like rusty spoons
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,959
Likes: 0
From: Calgary, Alberta
Originally Posted by BlueEyes
Where did you get these temps for the Canadian test drive? They're way off. 10F is -12 C. It was not -12 when the car was tested by Canadian Driver. Infact, our November was warm. I would say it was more likely about 50-60F. There isn't even enough snow to build an igloo here yet.
Infact, it's 41F today where this car was tested.
Infact, it's 41F today where this car was tested.
12-05-2005 | 04:39 PM
#90
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 21,958
Likes: 115
From: portland oregon
Originally Posted by map
if it's very picky about gas i wonder if CA's crappy gas will have an effect...
12-05-2005 | 04:45 PM
#91
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
From: Portsmouth NH
Originally Posted by crossbow
Make sure to only put 93 octane (or 94 if available). The car loses an absolutely massive amount of power if you accidently put 87 octane in. (it cuts all boost past 4200 rpm if it detects less then 91 octane gas).
Hopefully she'll enjoy v-power there's a station right near home
12-05-2005 | 06:43 PM
#92
CAW CAW
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
From: Toronto
Hopefully it wont be too long before there is a hood that has a hood scoop available in the aftermarket.... that might help a little bit with the heat-soak
Last edited by TODreamer; 12-05-2005 at 06:47 PM.
12-05-2005 | 06:56 PM
#93
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 839
Likes: 2
Where did you get these temps for the Canadian test drive?
Its possible I reversed F and C in the conversion, though when I looked up the data when the article was posted, it was showing particularly low temps. (Orleans, ON)
if it's very picky about gas i wonder if CA's crappy gas will have an effect...
And ya, the car basically cuts boost past 4200 rpm, as per discussions with a mazda tech. (If the vehicle detects octane lower then 91) Take that information as you will. It doesn't mention it in the FSM or the Tech highlights manual. One of the big inital problems seems to be that a large % of US dealers have been filling the cars with 87 octane as they arrive. Basically results in something akin to turbine failure...it feels like the car suddenly lost half its cylinders.
So if your test driving one, or taking delivery of one, and it feels like your car just died...its most likely an octane issue.
Btw I took the time and scanned all the interesting info from the tech highlights booklet and posted it on 6tech if anyone is interested. The complexity of the DSC system is rediculous! Its got anti-understeer powah! (And piston squirters, dual fuel pumps, and 1600 psi fuel rails...woo!)
Last edited by crossbow; 12-05-2005 at 07:12 PM.
12-05-2005 | 07:31 PM
#94
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 229
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From: Portsmouth NH
Originally Posted by TODreamer
Hopefully it wont be too long before there is a hood that has a hood scoop available in the aftermarket.... that might help a little bit with the heat-soak
12-05-2005 | 08:06 PM
#95
CAW CAW
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
From: Toronto
Originally Posted by dwill9578
Not only that but on 6club a new owner mentioned the heavy hood.......he was not kidding you would NOT believe how heavy that thing is. I have no clue why it would be that way, the hood on an 8 weighs nothing. I'm surprised they didn't use aluminum for the speed6 too
Last edited by TODreamer; 12-05-2005 at 08:42 PM.
12-05-2005 | 09:27 PM
#97
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 229
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From: Portsmouth NH
Originally Posted by TODreamer
looks like a mere hood may have somewhat of a difference on this car.....
12-05-2005 | 09:52 PM
#98
A turbo what?
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
From: Wynne, AR
driven
Hello, I just got back from driving a mazdaspeed 6, and like a former post, dont remember which, was not really all that impressed.. I did not feel that it was faster than our 8s, sure it had more torque down low, and was quick in first gear, I pretty much decided I am just going to turbo my 8. On the other hand, the car looked really nice in person and drove very very smooth, if i wanted a quick sedan I would consider one.
Jesse
Jesse
12-06-2005 | 07:49 AM
#99
CAW CAW
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
From: Toronto
Originally Posted by yz007
Hello, I just got back from driving a mazdaspeed 6, and like a former post, dont remember which, was not really all that impressed.. I did not feel that it was faster than our 8s, sure it had more torque down low, and was quick in first gear, I pretty much decided I am just going to turbo my 8. On the other hand, the car looked really nice in person and drove very very smooth, if i wanted a quick sedan I would consider one.
Jesse
Jesse
It woud rape an 8 outside of a technical course
Last edited by TODreamer; 12-06-2005 at 07:58 AM.