MS3 vs 08 WRX review on Edmunds causes a stir on Naisoc
#26
Grand Chancellor
Any dyno proof on those numbers? 20+ fwhp for a CAI on a turbo car is a lot. Most turbo cars don't see much increase from CAIs since the turbo adds substantial heat to the air anyways. I did a quick search on the Mazda3 forums and couldn't find any dyno numbers to back it up.
so why wouldn't you just buy the STi in the first place then?
#27
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Any dyno proof on those numbers? 20+ fwhp for a CAI on a turbo car is a lot. Most turbo cars don't see much increase from CAIs since the turbo adds substantial heat to the air anyways. I did a quick search on the Mazda3 forums and couldn't find any dyno numbers to back it up.
Aftermarket support for the WRX has been around for much longer so the body of knowledge out there for modifying them is substantially greater. I'm not saying that it has more ultimate potential than a MS3 but right now it does.
The RX-8 is my second Mazda (previously had a Protege 5 for my wifey) and my '03 WRX was the first Suby I've owned. Based on my experience the Suby was more reliable and had zero problems compared to my Mazdas.
Aftermarket support for the WRX has been around for much longer so the body of knowledge out there for modifying them is substantially greater. I'm not saying that it has more ultimate potential than a MS3 but right now it does.
The RX-8 is my second Mazda (previously had a Protege 5 for my wifey) and my '03 WRX was the first Suby I've owned. Based on my experience the Suby was more reliable and had zero problems compared to my Mazdas.
A CAI on the MS3 provides significant improvement since the stock airbox is unbelievably restrictive. The box can't pass enough air to feed the turbo past around 5800 rpm. The air has to change directions twice at 90 degree angles plus its pulling hot air. I could list a number of other reasons it provides major benefit.
The stock exhaust has a CAT + 2 resonators/mufflers integrated into the piping. CPE has eliminated one of those (i believe) and the gains are impressive. Remember, this is the same engine that has been in the Speed6 for 2+ years and hte CX-7 for the same time.
Point of all this is that for a car that has been in the US for less than a year, the aftermarket is unbelievable. The aftermarket for the RX-8 within the first year of being in the US was horrendous. Maybe Subaru's have a bigger global aftermarket, but the critical parts of the MS3 for power have been taken care of.
#30
Grand Chancellor
Power gains for one individual is hardly a standard to be used. BTW, that's not 3 small mods. That individual has 4 major mods. Converting TMIC to FMIC requires major piping rework.
#32
UMM perhaps because it's $9000+ more? MAYBE? The STI has more upgrades then many people would need, especially in a daily driver, so you could make a WRX as fast as an STI very affordably. I would definitely take one over the Speed 3, just because you know it's going to be more reliable and durable. Like them or not, Subaru's engineering is superior. They've been the AWD turbo business for a long time, and know how to make reliable high HP cars.
As another person stated. There aren't reflashes, TSBS, ect ect. I love my Speed 6, but there must be 20 TSB's on it, there were 2 recalls, and sure enough those TSB's are showing their ugly face, and I'm having to take my car in now for them. The Speed 3 is having the same problems. As long as you are willing to accept that fact (like I am), and don't want AWD, then why not the Speed 3. However, in a daily driver and those who drive a lot of miles, and want to play the odds that car will last a long time, Subaru is always the way to go over Mazda, each and every time.
As another person stated. There aren't reflashes, TSBS, ect ect. I love my Speed 6, but there must be 20 TSB's on it, there were 2 recalls, and sure enough those TSB's are showing their ugly face, and I'm having to take my car in now for them. The Speed 3 is having the same problems. As long as you are willing to accept that fact (like I am), and don't want AWD, then why not the Speed 3. However, in a daily driver and those who drive a lot of miles, and want to play the odds that car will last a long time, Subaru is always the way to go over Mazda, each and every time.
So far, 17k of hard driving on my ms3 an not a single issue. Aside from the motor mount recall there hasn't been anything major. The car is built like a brick and I trust it to get me to where I'm going and back way way more than a WRX.
#33
It's called the vendor butt dynos. Posts like these reminds me when I read about K&N filters offering 20hp at the Clubsi forums of yore.
if you have read my initial post, you would know why. I am not saying that MSP3 is a POS or anything. It is quite a nice car actually. But I am done with souped up econocar. Hence I have an RX8 as you can see, hp is not everything for me unlike the majority of north americans. Also I am trying to educate noobs to not discount Subaru's engineering especially the fact that global aftermarket support for the WRX is probably larger than all of Mazda's aftermarket support let alone Mazda3's.
if you have read my initial post, you would know why. I am not saying that MSP3 is a POS or anything. It is quite a nice car actually. But I am done with souped up econocar. Hence I have an RX8 as you can see, hp is not everything for me unlike the majority of north americans. Also I am trying to educate noobs to not discount Subaru's engineering especially the fact that global aftermarket support for the WRX is probably larger than all of Mazda's aftermarket support let alone Mazda3's.
Last edited by Betelgeuse; 08-10-2007 at 11:14 PM.
#34
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Pass whatever you're smoking over here. Have you been to nasaic and seen the countless issues with subies? You name it, they have it. Sorry but for longevity, the complexity of an AWD drivetrain alone is a disadvantage - more things to break and more expensive to upkeep. And it's known the 5-speed glass tranny in the WRX can't hold up to much abuse. I almost bought a WRX wagon and held off after visiting the forums. Too many drivetrain related issues and I drive hard so that was a going to be a bad combo. Drive them like grandma and they last, but that can apply to any car.
So far, 17k of hard driving on my ms3 an not a single issue. Aside from the motor mount recall there hasn't been anything major. The car is built like a brick and I trust it to get me to where I'm going and back way way more than a WRX.
So far, 17k of hard driving on my ms3 an not a single issue. Aside from the motor mount recall there hasn't been anything major. The car is built like a brick and I trust it to get me to where I'm going and back way way more than a WRX.
#35
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The rex will have some competition once the Lancer Ralliart is released. I was very surprised that they didn't up the hp and tune it a bit stiffer. Also it really needs a good pair of all-season performance rubber or at least offer the option of summer tires.
I don't care for hatches but the MS3 looks a good bit better than the new WRX.
I don't care for hatches but the MS3 looks a good bit better than the new WRX.
:agreed: the new Mitsu RA is going to be a very comparable car to the new WRX. Personally I'll take a Mitsu over a Subie any day. The last RA was a great sleeper but by no means WRX level. I'm looking forward to the two cars being on par and the reviews that will ensue.
#36
Well that's you, I'll take a Mazda any day over many other manufacturers including Subaru. I've owned 3 and they've never let me down. Except for the STI and maybe the legacy GT, Subaru has nothing I care for. And those would be my last choices.
#37
Grand Chancellor
New WRX should no longer be considered the performance machine that it once were... sadly. Subaru wants it appeal to the mass market. Should've just called it Impreza GT like in Japan.
#38
Pass whatever you're smoking over here. Have you been to nasaic and seen the countless issues with subies? You name it, they have it. Sorry but for longevity, the complexity of an AWD drivetrain alone is a disadvantage - more things to break and more expensive to upkeep. And it's known the 5-speed glass tranny in the WRX can't hold up to much abuse. I almost bought a WRX wagon and held off after visiting the forums. Too many drivetrain related issues and I drive hard so that was a going to be a bad combo. Drive them like grandma and they last, but that can apply to any car.
So far, 17k of hard driving on my ms3 an not a single issue. Aside from the motor mount recall there hasn't been anything major. The car is built like a brick and I trust it to get me to where I'm going and back way way more than a WRX.
So far, 17k of hard driving on my ms3 an not a single issue. Aside from the motor mount recall there hasn't been anything major. The car is built like a brick and I trust it to get me to where I'm going and back way way more than a WRX.
Lets go by if lets say grandma took a Speed 3 to the store and Bingo every day, Aunt Bethel took the WRX. After 10 years, which car hold up better? WAA LA!!!! That's not saying Mazda isn't reliable. We roll the dice on any car, so hopefully you'll luck out and drive your Speed 3 200k miles without problems. It's possible, but overall Subaru is better, DEAL WITH IT, just as I have as a Mazda owner. It's called BEING IMPARTIAL AND OBJECTIVE. You might wanna learn it sometime.
My STI went 28k miles of hard driving, and never saw the dealership ONCE. I'd bet the BANK that I 'd have hit 100k without anything but basic maintanence. I'm unsure about this Mazda. Countless recalls and TSBS, and small problems occuring already at 10k miles. My RX8, well that ewas a nightmare. However, that's what a warranty is for, and I won't be keeping it past warranty, so all is good.
Last edited by VikingDJ; 08-11-2007 at 09:25 AM.
#39
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Betelgeuse and VikingDJ, check out this URL
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/consumerreports.pdf
Going from this, Mazda and Subaru seem almost even, as general brands ... in 2 of the charts anyway.
I didn't read the article. I only looked at the chart.
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/consumerreports.pdf
Going from this, Mazda and Subaru seem almost even, as general brands ... in 2 of the charts anyway.
I didn't read the article. I only looked at the chart.
#40
Phew, lay off the pipe yourself man. You're going by just a car forum as your defense? Look at reliability ratings. My god when I go on the Speed 3 forum, there's people having problems, and there's not that many owners on there yet at all. There's far more WRXs out there then Speed 3s. At least 12-15 times more of them, so of course you're gonna see problems. A DUH!!!!!!!!!!!! Facts are facts. Subaru is superior to Mazda in reliability ratings. In bone stock form, used as a normal car eith normal driving, I'd take Subaru over Mazda any day, and that's because the car will hold up better with less repairs, and bettre reliability. Of course the WRX is so easily moddable, so you can easily make it unreliable.
Lets go by if lets say grandma took a Speed 3 to the store and Bingo every day, Aunt Bethel took the WRX. After 10 years, which car hold up better? WAA LA!!!! That's not saying Mazda isn't reliable. We roll the dice on any car, so hopefully you'll luck out and drive your Speed 3 200k miles without problems. It's possible, but overall Subaru is better, DEAL WITH IT, just as I have as a Mazda owner. It's called BEING IMPARTIAL AND OBJECTIVE. You might wanna learn it sometime.
My STI went 28k miles of hard driving, and never saw the dealership ONCE. I'd bet the BANK that I 'd have hit 100k without anything but basic maintanence. I'm unsure about this Mazda. Countless recalls and TSBS, and small problems occuring already at 10k miles. My RX8, well that ewas a nightmare. However, that's what a warranty is for, and I won't be keeping it past warranty, so all is good.
Lets go by if lets say grandma took a Speed 3 to the store and Bingo every day, Aunt Bethel took the WRX. After 10 years, which car hold up better? WAA LA!!!! That's not saying Mazda isn't reliable. We roll the dice on any car, so hopefully you'll luck out and drive your Speed 3 200k miles without problems. It's possible, but overall Subaru is better, DEAL WITH IT, just as I have as a Mazda owner. It's called BEING IMPARTIAL AND OBJECTIVE. You might wanna learn it sometime.
My STI went 28k miles of hard driving, and never saw the dealership ONCE. I'd bet the BANK that I 'd have hit 100k without anything but basic maintanence. I'm unsure about this Mazda. Countless recalls and TSBS, and small problems occuring already at 10k miles. My RX8, well that ewas a nightmare. However, that's what a warranty is for, and I won't be keeping it past warranty, so all is good.
Anyway, if Subaru is so much more reliable, why did you buy a Mazda? It's not like the Subarus aren't affordable, they are, so what's the deal? Guys like you fascinate me. Over on the speed 3 forums we've got a few of them - always comparing the speed 3 to another make/model they had that they loved.
You bash the car you drive, over exaggerate the problems (countless tsbs/ recalls my ***!!)but constantly give praise to another make/model. I'm all for being impartial (there are countless other brands out there I won't mind driving - hell I do like the STI, EVO, is250) but I'll never take my hard earned money and plunk it down on a make I have little faith in or don't particularly like - that seems nuts to me.
I base my decisions/likes/preferences on my own experience, the experience of others and what I read on the forums online. What I gather there means more to me than some reliability rating. I always laugh at people who put a lot of faith in ratings especially the ones that put out arbitrary numbers like JD Power and the like. It's no secret they can be easily skewed and misleading as the actual problems aren't disclosed, just a number. So a tranny problem and a cosmetic problem for example, are treated as one and the same. With that said, I'll stick with what I like and trust.
Your aunt bethel and grandma scenario is unrealistic but to answer your question, both cars should more than likely hold up just fine over the long term with normal driving although I will still lean to the speed 3. The real question though, is which will hold up over the long term in a more realistic scenario (i.e driven hard on a daily basis)? You already know my answer to that.
#41
Betelgeuse and VikingDJ, check out this URL
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/consumerreports.pdf
Going from this, Mazda and Subaru seem almost even, as general brands ... in 2 of the charts anyway.
I didn't read the article. I only looked at the chart.
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/consumerreports.pdf
Going from this, Mazda and Subaru seem almost even, as general brands ... in 2 of the charts anyway.
I didn't read the article. I only looked at the chart.
Thanks for posting this, but like I said in my above post, these types of ratings are meaningless without knowing the models and the actual problems. This also proves you can't even put faith in these numbers as Mazda is way down to the bottom on one (jd power) and way up here.
#42
Doggie Style :)
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Just a car forum? no several car forums. And the repeated pattern of drivetrain related failures posted regarding the WRXs are mind boggling. Granted quite a few are modded, but when I read of bone stock cars having issues that's when I got concerned. No it doesn't mean that every car will have a problem, but it does point out a point of possible failure.
Anyway, if Subaru is so much more reliable, why did you buy a Mazda? It's not like the Subarus aren't affordable, they are, so what's the deal? Guys like you fascinate me. Over on the speed 3 forums we've got a few of them - always comparing the speed 3 to another make/model they had that they loved.
Anyway, if Subaru is so much more reliable, why did you buy a Mazda? It's not like the Subarus aren't affordable, they are, so what's the deal? Guys like you fascinate me. Over on the speed 3 forums we've got a few of them - always comparing the speed 3 to another make/model they had that they loved.
Hmm. First hand experience versus "it's written on the internet".
BTW, I've owned a WRX that I modified an beat on. Never had it in for any warranty work. My RX-8 had less than 2,000 miles on it when it needed to go in for a new visor. Check this thread too
https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/2006-jd-power-long-term-dependability-survey-110236/
edit: Also regarding your second paragraph. Reliability is just one factor when considering a car. If that was the only thing that mattered we'd all be driving the same boring cars. I chose an RX-8 over an STi because it is a pure driving experience. I accept the fact that it is less powerful and will be slower on all but the twistiest tracks, get poorer gas milage and need more repairs than if I had gotten the Suby. That's fine with me.
Last edited by LabDad; 08-11-2007 at 01:16 PM.
#43
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Yes, going to a car forum and judging a car by some posts from some random dudes is a much better idea!
Fact is any AWD car with a good amount of horsepower and owners that don't know how to drive them is going to have some sort of drivetrain issue. There will always be a weakest link and there will always be a handful of idiots that find it, sometimes with regularity. I knew/know dozens of WRX owners that all drive their cars hard, go to the strip, launch them regularly, autox, and do HPDEs, not a single one of them has had tranny issues. However, the tranny in the WRX is probably the weak link for the average moron that thinks they're Petr Solberg yet has very little experience driving an AWD turbo car or even just a manual.
Last edited by Ike; 08-11-2007 at 02:31 PM.
#44
So what do you drive again? VikingDJ has owned a RX-8 and currently has a MS6 (same motor as the MS3) in addition to previously owning some Subys. Your info comes from what you've read on various car forums.
Hmm. First hand experience versus "it's written on the internet".
Hmm. First hand experience versus "it's written on the internet".
I seriously doubt the subie owners with broken trannies are just making it up.
I've owned several Mazdas, a Honda, and several domestics. Never owned a Subie, so I have to rely on the experience of others - the forums and people l know. I don't mindlessly believe everything I read but at the same time, I have no reason to doubt the many who've complained about the WRX transmissions.
The ms3 and ms6 share the engine and tranny but they're tuned differently and have different ECUs. Also one is AWD and other is not so there differences in the drivetrain as well. So the problems in one don't necessarily apply to the other.
BTW, I've owned a WRX that I modified an beat on. Never had it in for any warranty work. My RX-8 had less than 2,000 miles on it when it needed to go in for a new visor. Check this thread too
Reliability is just one factor when considering a car. If that was the only thing that mattered we'd all be driving the same boring cars. I chose an RX-8 over an STi because it is a pure driving experience. I accept the fact that it is less powerful and will be slower on all but the twistiest tracks, get poorer gas milage and need more repairs than if I had gotten the Suby. That's fine with me.
#45
I seriously doubt the subie owners with broken trannies are just making it up.
...
A reliable car doesn't have to be boring, and I never said reliability was the only thing that matters, however it matters a lot to many people when purchasing and it's a topic that comes up quite often when comparing cars. I read that last part you wrote regarding your reasons for getting the rx8 over the STI and had to laugh. I'm speechless, don't know how to respond to that. Like I said, your type fascinate me.
...
A reliable car doesn't have to be boring, and I never said reliability was the only thing that matters, however it matters a lot to many people when purchasing and it's a topic that comes up quite often when comparing cars. I read that last part you wrote regarding your reasons for getting the rx8 over the STI and had to laugh. I'm speechless, don't know how to respond to that. Like I said, your type fascinate me.
Regardless, I have no real "loyalty" whatsoever to any brand. I judge the cars I have owned on their individual merits.
I've owned 2 Nissan sports cars. (S13 Silvia K's, 300ZX Twin Turbo), a 2004 RX-8, a 2003 Subaru WRX, and a 2006 Subaru STI.
The RX-8 was the worst. The 300ZX's cooling system was a pain in the ***, but being 12 years old, I couldn't complain too hard, it was inexpensive to fix.
The Silvia was rock solid (some ignition issues at one point, but also an inexpensive easy fix), both subarus were rock solid. (0 problems in 3 years of ownership between the 2)
I would like to see all of the "forum" (I spend a lot of time on cobb's forum and NASIOC, and see nothing even remotely resembling what I see here). posts where people are destroying their transmissions on their subarus, and then compare the quantity to the number of people flooding, needing new engines, and having miscellaneous problems with their rx-8.
Last edited by dragula53; 08-11-2007 at 02:50 PM.
#46
Fact is any AWD car with a good amount of horsepower and owners that don't know how to drive them is going to have some sort of drivetrain issue. There will always be a weakest link and there will always be a handful of idiots that find it, sometimes with regularity. I knew/know dozens of WRX owners that all drive their cars hard, go to the strip, launch them regularly, autox, and do HPDEs, not a single one of them has had tranny issues. However, the tranny in the WRX is probably the weak link for the average moron that thinks they're Petr Solberg yet has very little experience driving an AWD turbo car or even just a manual.
It took a whole paragraph, but it sounds like you're admitting the WRX has a weak tranny.
Last edited by Betelgeuse; 08-11-2007 at 03:13 PM.
#47
I would like to see all of the "forum" (I spend a lot of time on cobb's forum and NASIOC, and see nothing even remotely resembling what I see here). posts where people are destroying their transmissions on their subarus, and then compare the quantity to the number of people flooding, needing new engines, and having miscellaneous problems with their rx-8.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=55
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=64
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38
http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=69
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21
Last edited by Betelgeuse; 08-11-2007 at 03:10 PM.
#48
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240471
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=55
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=64
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38
http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=69
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=55
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=64
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38
http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=69
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21
Hardly a rash of transmissions spontaneously self destructing.
But touche'. I've done some hard launches, and can see the potential for transmission damage, I suppose. This is why the EVO has the 4k? rpm limit for launches.
They say the same thing about launching the RX-8 at 8k rpms though.
Last edited by dragula53; 08-11-2007 at 03:27 PM.
#49
Administrator
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those guys over at the subie forum are freakin' hilarious.
#50
Lots of people abusing their modified cars.
Hardly a rash of transmissions spontaneously self destructing.
But touche'. I've done some hard launches, and can see the potential for transmission damage, I suppose. This is why the EVO has the 4k? rpm limit for launches.
They say the same thing about launching the RX-8 at 8k rpms though.
Hardly a rash of transmissions spontaneously self destructing.
But touche'. I've done some hard launches, and can see the potential for transmission damage, I suppose. This is why the EVO has the 4k? rpm limit for launches.
They say the same thing about launching the RX-8 at 8k rpms though.