IKnowNot'ing

News is that Harm Lagaay, Porsche Design Chief is retiring soon and will be replaced by Michel Mauer (designed the Merc SLK and Smart Roadster) later this year. Maybe we'll see more innovative designs from Porsche from now on.

ArvinC

...and that in-and-of-itself says a lot. For me, the basics of the shape and design are much better displayed in the 997 design vs. the 996. It's odd, but in some of the pics, from the front-side looking 3/4 aspect, the 997 looks a bit elongated, like it's been pulled a bit too thin from front to back. But from the rear-side 3/4 view, the proportions look very good...squat and aggressive.

All-in-all, I think Porsche is doing very well with the 911. While I will agree the newer designs have been hits-or-misses with Porschephiles and car buffs, I think the engineering going into them is still top-notch. They are getting great output from the flat-six in both NA and FF versions, the chassis tuning is better with each version and the performance level keeps increasing.

As long as Porsche keeps true to its racing/performance heritage, the 911 will always be viewed as something of a holy-relic among many enthusiasts. I'm saving for one...it's the next logical step up from my beloved RX-8! :D

Arvin

Fanman

Having come from a 911 I can tell you that it was a very nice car (2001 996). Would I get it again. NO. It just seems the value has been lost on that car. It used to be when you got a $75-$80K Porsche it was clearly "a level above" in terms of all performance categories. When it was a 993 it had 282 hp, while the Corvette was 300 hp, and the M3 was 240 hp. Now with the new 997's coming out the "standard" engine is 325 hp, and if you pay extra for the "S" you get the widebody & 355 hp, but the M3 has 333 hp, the Corvette has 400 hp, the S4 has 340 hp, the CLK/SLK 55's have 362 hp. The EVO & STI's pull 13 flat's. Porsche has clearly fallen behind and in their arrogance they refuse to acknowledge that they need to keep up with the market, and that the market defines the hp, not Porsche. Many of the "Porsche" purists say that it is not about hp, but my contention is that hp/straightline speed is a big factor when I consider an $80K car or a $125K Turbo. In the previous version they had "power kits" that brought hp on the Carrera to 345 hp, and 450 hp on the Turbos but they were $12K & 18K respectively. That to me is total nonsense. If you are spending $80K on a 911 you should get the best technology they have to offer period. I agree that they should have really done more with this new 997. I like the design but they should have either : 1) made the body aluminum and dropped the weight about 200 lbs. (Hell, if Jaguar can do it, Porsche should be able to do it) or 2) include the 355 hp (or more like 375 hp) engine in the base 911's. I think they are getting greedy, and I love t that they are now giving $10K-$12K off MSRP.

IKnowNot'ing

1) If you drive an RX8, you should understand that max hp means little in term of driving pleasure. And Porsche has always been, in my opinion, rather conservative in term of engine power. Nevertheless, they've always offered performing packages (at a price though).

2) I really find that 'power race' among manufacturers completely absurd . The most ridiculous brands in this race are Daimler-Chrysler (Mercedes) and VW (Bugatti Veyron).

3) Jaguar could afford aluminium technology because someone in Dearnborn wrote a big check. Porsche is an independent company (good for them!) and only could afford the Cayenne development cost because VW actually funded it.

4) As long as the demand for Porsche models is higher than offer, you'll have to buy what they decided to sell...

Fanman

1) The RX-8 can at least keep within shouting distance of comparable cars (S2000 & 350 Z) in a straight line, and is very close on almost every track. The Porsche is beaten by cars that cost 1/2 it's price. And it is not like an RX-8 vs. Dodge SRT-4. These cars offer same or better performnce, and very nice if not better interiors (the M3, S4, & SLK 55). Offering a "powerkit" for $12K to $18K...gee we are just so lucky. Talk about absurd. As if dropping $80K on a car is not enough, they want to ding you for another $12K. Quite simply the value is not there any more.

2) The horsepower wars might be absurd to you, but to many people/market that is what is demanded. Porsche is not the market, the market is the market and right now they are saying they want more hp. Porsche should see that and offer a 375 hp engine. If you don't want to use the hp, you don't have to push the accelerator down as far, but for those of us that do Porsche's proposal of a 325 hp engine in a $80K car is sad. Mercedes is selling every AMG 55 model/unit that they can make, so is BMW with their M3's, so apparently there is a market for it.

3) Porsche is the highest profit per vehicle manufacturer in the world. For example it costs them roughly $68K to manufacture a 911 TT, that they sell here in the US for about $125K. Last year was a record for them in terms of profitability. So I think they could afford aluminum if they wanted to. Just more expensive per unit than steel, and it would cut into their profits.

4) The demand for Porsche's is not what it used to be. Lately the 911 sales were down 12%, and the Boxsters were down 30%+. If you are not in LA, or NJ/NY area the dealers are offering $10K-$12K off 911's. I guess the market is telling them they are just not worth it anymore. Even limited edition models like the GT3 & GT2 are selling below MSRP these days.

I had a great time with my 911, but there are just so many great cars these days for tens of thousands of $$$ less that offer equal or better performance, and even equal or better plush. The Porsche is a very nice car, but I just wish they would stop browbeating us with terrible option packages ($3000 for leather, $1200 for Xenons...c'mon) and give us the best for the $80K that we pay (355 hp engine in the Carrera) or sane option packages (ala RX8)

Overport

I kind of like the design....but im tired of every carmaker looking into the past for inspiration. This is 2004. They should be designing cars that look the part in our time. Not cars that look the part in the 1970's, 80's, and 90's. Designs need to look more futuristic, like they belong in this year. Uh well, first it was we Americans and now the Europeans have got the disease.

shelleys_man_06

Give me a 959 and leave me alone...The new 911 needs to call 911 because it got beat by an ugly stick. Ha ha ha I know it wasn't funny . Seriously, I see the difference, and these cars keep getting more sissy. What are they thinking? I never liked Porsche anyways .

IKnowNot'ing

1) The only real competitor of the std Carrera2 in this bunch is the M3CSL, in term of performances and handling. And its price is identical to the 997. Don't get me started on the S4 (although I'm an Audiphile) or you'll cry (slower / terminal understeer). And about the SLK 55 AMG, I haven't read any test report yet but I guess we can expect a similarly high price tag.

2) Apparently, the real issue you have is the fact that even in Carrera S version it will have a wee tad lower hp!

3) Making an Al car is not just a question of replacing the steel by the more expensive Al. You need to completely re-learn how to make a body using the advantages and disadvantages of this lighter element. This costs tremendous amounts of dosh in R&D.

4) Sales going down is a characteristic of car models about to be replaced soon. And potential Porsche customers are usually aware of it so they just wait for the new stuff.
Porsche is about exclusivity and individuality, so there is now way they will offer sane option packages a la RX8.

I'm not defending Porsche at all, I just think that your analysis of their situation is wrong.

RobDickinson

Porsche's biggest competitior for the 997 will be the AMV8 , the 911 looks boring (ala golf mk 4, 5 etc) next to the AM.

Fanman

1) That is completely untrue. A M3 CSL would stomp a 911 into the ground (given the fact it has gone under 8 min. at Nurburgring, and it has R compound tires). I have tracked my 911, and the my friends regular M3 and they are far closer than you would think. The S4 might not track as well as the 911, but for 1/2 the price it will be pretty close in all performance categories. The SLK will be $60K-$65K MSRP not $80K+ MSRP that Porsche will command. The M3 does/will match fenders in all straightline performance measures with the 911, and come very, very close on the track. The SLK 55 will better the 911 (as the SLK 32 already was).

2) Yes, that is an issue that I have. The look of the car is pretty good. I will say I like it better than the 996 that I had. But when I pay $80K+ for a car, I don't want to make excuses. I don't want to have to pay extra money for a "powerkit." If you pay that kind of money you should get the best that company has to offer, period. I don't want to have to drop $3K for a leather interior, or $1200 for Xenons, or $12,000 for more power. Porsche back in the day (993) was an elite level car in all respects. From the track, to the drag strip. The M3's (240 hp), M5's, SLK's (185 hp), S4's (250 hp) could not keep up. These days they are quite a bit faster. Look at the hp increase in the market (M3 = 240 to 333 hp, S4 = 250 hp to 340 hp, Vette = 300 hp to 350 hp to 400 hp). Like I said if you don't feel that you need the hp, great. But in my case I think that the 911 should be a no compromise, no excuse car. It should match all relevant competitor's across the baord in all performance catagories.

3) I understand that making an AL car is difficult, but sometimes it's a matter of necessity. Instead of dropping large amounts on the active suspension that they coming out in the C2S that very few people will notice, they should have spent theis money on dropping the 70 lbs. that they gained from the new model change, or the 40+ that they had gained from 99' to 02' The hp gain that they made (300 hp to 325 hp is pretty much offset by the additional weight). I would personally prefer less weight, but it seems more cars are giving more hp to compensate for the weight gain. Unfortunately Porsche is doing neither.

4) Porsche's discounts started far in advance of this year (transition year). I think people are seeing the lack of competitiveness of the car. When you can get your doors blown off by an EVO, or STI, a definite re-think is in order. You will always have your Porsche purists that will live & die by Porsche, but they seem to be losing guys like me who do value superior performance, and do look at the #'s as well as the reputation. I hope they can come up with a car that can appeal to both groups come day (maybe the 998). It seems these days a high 12, 13 flat in the 1/4 mi. level of performance is the standard. The 911 will do low 13's but is summarily outclasses by many of the cars mentioned.

I would hope that they could come up with a car that was several hundred pounds lighter than the current car, and had the 355 hp engine that would be perfect. Or 200 lbs. lighter and 375 hp engine, but I guess in Porsche world that would be the $100K+ GT3. :D

Baller

PORSCHE, THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE!
You must see the car in person, photos do not do it justice.
I love sports cars and Porsche is always a favorite.
Porsche had the highest % increase in sales than any car maker last year. Porsche is owned out-right with money in the bank.
Porsche is the most profitable car company (car for car) in the world. Porsche is not for sale.

shelleys_man_06

Yeah. Porsche is owned by Volkswagon.

Baller

No, not true

RobDickinson

VAG (Volkswagen Audi group) dont own porsche. Porsche own porsche. One of the few independant car companies still around.

VAG own Audi, VW, Skoda, Seat and Lamborghini.