zoom44

i figured out who mazdaeyesonly was like 2 weeks ago...

Velocity

I think you are dead wrong... except for the rotary part. I averaged about 14 mpg with my RX-8. It's not a hard decision when the the following are currently on sale...

5.4L Supercharged 4V Ti-VCT V-8 Engine (ford) (550 HP) 15/23mpg
3.7L Ti-VCT V-6 Engine (ford) (305 HP) 19/31mpg
7.0L V8 (chevy) 505HP 15/24mpg
VQ37VHR (nissan) 332HP 18/26mpg
just to name a few....

I don't regret buying my RX-8, but I wouldn't buy one now.

Maybe it's different in Australia... ¯\(°_o)/¯

gwilliams6

"The ultimate Mazda in our minds is rotary powered; as a company, we have no intention of abandoning that valuable asset." -- Franz von Holzhausen (Mazda Chief Designer)

As I said, Mazda will always have a rotary, it runs to their very core, it is who they are. The RX9 will be.

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

^you sure seem to like to pat yourself on the back

ASH8

Gee with it Mr Expert, Franz von Holzhausen (Mazda Chief Designer), has not worked for Mazda for nearly 3 years.

More motherhood statements, still No facts.

gwilliams6

Hey Mr. ASH8 Mazda know it all, does Takashi Yamanouchi still work for Mazda because he has been quoted in Autoweek as saying something very similar. I was searching on the net for link to Takashi quote from Autoweek when Holzhausen's came up.

http://www.mazda.com/csr/csr_vision/top_message/

If you want the final word in all things of knowledge about everything at Mazda, be my guest, "grumpy old man"

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

While I admire your enthusiasm, you do realize that Mazda is a large corporation, not a person or a club.

What runs at their "core" is profit. Nothing more and nothing less.
What they sell people that are enthusiastic about their brand is the idea that some sort of ideal runs to their core. This is the essence of marketing.

Flashwing

I had the pleasure of engaging this very discussion with some good friends at the Socal dyno day and I believe that there is an underlying feeling within RX8 owners that spells danger should Mazda fail to deliver on a rotary performance car that can meet or exceed the performance of other cars in it's class.

We can debate whether or not Mazda will make a new generation rotary car till we are blue in the face. The fact remains that a "neither confirm nor deny" message seems to come from various corners of Mazda and the media. No one is fessing up to any details yet no one is saying the rotary is dead.

My question is whether or not the end product will be worth it. Granted that question carries the same burden of proof as whether or not Mazda will even make another rotary car. The Socal dyno event proved one aspect about the RX8 and that is that extracting performance out of the car is a dangerous process and one that often results in an engine replacement. Enthusiasts, for one reason or another, have all sought to upgrade the performance of the RX8 to suit their wants.

The Socal dyno day, for example, had RX8's that all had at least one engine replacement with the exception of 3 cars.

So as someone who looks to the next generation rotary car as an enthusiast I am not encouraged by the notion that the only supporting factor for the RX9 is that it will be a "new" version of the RX7. As we've all discussed at length, there are some great performance cars out there which are able to combine performance with efficiency. When Chevy can produce a C5 vette with over 300whp that gets 33mpg you can imagine how Mazda has a high bar to jump over if they want to produce a great sports car.

I don't regret my RX8 purchase for one second. The car continues to be a wonder and a joy to drive whether on the race track or on the highway. I get compliments on it's appearance all the time with only a few modest appearance changes and the rotary is certainly a huge interest with motor heads. I also can't ignore the fact that owning my RX8 has connected me with some amazing people including Black Halo Racing.

However, it will take more than the novelty of the rotary engine to sway me into another rotary car. Mazda will have to produce a car that can capture my imagination and driving spirit in the same way the RX8 did. The problem is that after having gone through the trials that my car has brought that bar is much higher.

I hope Mazda makes another truly unique car and doesn't just put the same baggage in new packaging hoping people won't notice.

gwilliams6

I, just like ASH8 have lived, breathed and shared time with these Mazda people for nearly forty years, as well as working with friends who are legendary Porsche racers. I have shared sleepless weeks, thankless jobs, track victories and dissapointments and tragedy with these people.

This is more than merely marketing for them. It is their passion, their mission to produce and race cars that they themselves can get excited about. Porsche doesn't sell that many cars compared to GM or Toyota, nor does Mazda. Check the facts, Mazda is NOT a big corporation. Hyundai sells twice as many cars, and even Kia and Subaru sell more cars worldwide.

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...tml#autosalesE

Yet Mazda has won its class 23 times at the Daytona 24hr race. Countless other race victories (over 140) and numerous championships in motorsports classes from amateur to professional. Mazda is the ONLY Japanese overall winner of the 24 hrs of LeMans. Mazdas are raced more than any other brand.

Why would a small car company care to spend a high percentage of its budget on enthusiasts. Not for profit. The Mazda3s and CX9s and the like keep the company afloat, but the MX5s and RX8s and future RX9s are for the soul of those designers and engineers and pioneers who love to drive and who stuck with the rotary when the big companies from GM to Mercedes Benz tried but couldn't make it work decades ago. Mazda pioneered new metallurgy and garnered dozens of new patents to make the wankel work. (Note: Audi is working on a small single rotor wankel as the gas engine in one of their next hybrids.) But only Mazda has the patents and the will to spend the money to produce a full-blown rotary performance car.

All the RX7s and RX8s came out with less standard horsepower than their chief rivals, but the unique qualities of the cars and their ultimate "pleasure of driving quotient" captured the imagination and driving spirit of people like me and ASH8 and you all. All six rotary Mazdas I have owned stirred my passion for driving . Mazda engineers get this completely. The next generation rotary car will surprise and delight you just as my RX3, then RX4, then first gen RX7 (street, then race modified), second gen RX7 Turbo II, third gen RX7 FD (twin Turbo), and RX8 40th Anniversary Edition have for me.

Mazda knows they have to hit a homerun to undue the bad rep that early RX8s had. They know they have to up the power, while raising fuel economy and still meet tougher emission standards. They won't bring the car out unless and until these tough tasks can be accomplished. I just know that every time some driver or journalist, like myself, has signaled or proclaimed the death of the rotary, over the past 40 years, they have been proven wrong by Mazda.

Economic times are hard for all automakers, including Mazda. But I am sticking with their track record, and my personal experiences and putting my bet on Mazda to once again deliver the goods, how ever long it takes.

bse50

I'm afraid that a low powered yet super lightweight car won't cut it.
People are amazed by sheer numbers, they couldn't care less if a car can brake 20feet later and overtake the ones that take half a second less to bring you from 0 to friggin 60. Pulling 2lateral gs isn't as fun as talking about 1\4mile times for most of the american population.
Unfortunately they can't build a car that only appeals to japanese enthusiasts, kangaroo humping aussies and BMW-is-better europeans.

In the end it is our fault. We're so spoiled that we want a super quiet reliable ultra fast sportscar that's safe at the same time. Oh.. and it has to grow daisies from the exhaust pipes too!
The first m3, the mighty e30, weighted 1300kgs in working order. The e92 weighs 1700kgs DRY, as an example.
How hard is it for Mazda to build a car that makes everybody happy? Close to impossible.
Money wise it's best for them to continue with their mx-5 lineup. That's where they make some money. A reliable, easily enjoyable spider that doesn't pretend to be that fast, or that stylish. The perfect compromise for the average joe.
Each and every rotary car has only lead to problems. Blown engines, crappy turbo systems (fd3s), rushed engine designs (rx8). We often overlook these "flaws" as enthusiasts but after 43 years or so Mazda simply can't.
Any wankel engine that comes out less than perfect will mean troubles, both in the form of bad advertising and financial issues with warranty claims.
I'm not saying that we won't see a wankel powered car in the future but this 3 year delay (from 2011 to 2013 or later) surely helps validating my theory...

Spin9k

^ Good discussion. But you all do realize the RX-8 project was done assuming a 10 yr lifetime? That would be ~2003-2013 or something close to what is being speculated on for the supposed new model intro date. The present car not lasting ~2013 is a result of the future being different than predicted in the early 2000s (emmisions, sales/economic climate). So early retirement, even though they'd just given it a 2nd life w/upgraded motor, was the inevitable course of action that made sense.

Marketing wise, pulling the plug early has advantages. One, when (and if) the new model, w/new name is introed, it's a *NEW* car, not a model upgrade. The general car buying public hasn't a clue from Rx-8/9. "New" cars are generally free of 'problem' baggage from discontinued cars. Hope springs eternal as they say. Think back to the RENESIS intro - aka the "Rotary Engine Genesis". All was wonder and light, despite the sorry end of the rotary in the turboed RX-7s.

The unfortunate RX-7 Turbo situation turned Mazda against FI rotaries for ever more, it seems. But enthusiasts like turbos, they like gross power. Right now the world's car manufacturers are also on a "small turbo engine" kick. Even in performance cars, V8 are being replaced with turbo V6s, V6s are now turbo 4s. And in everyday cars, turbos are the new 'economy engine", Ford, GM, etc., forging the way with things like EcoBoost to excellent reviews.

Mazda has only put turbos in a select few cars - the Mazda 3 giving the only noteably successful result. But turbos in Mazda's sports cars now-a-days? Yea right. There was a Mazdaspeed Miata one yr. as an endoflife boost. That's it. No one can convince me they can't put a mild turbo in an MX5 and make it a truely reliable, powerful sport car, but they simply refuse. Dumb and dumber.

No matter that they make lighter cars with reasonable performance with boring engines...people want great performance with some lead-foot time techological kick in the pants zoom-zoom. If Mazda persists in refusing in using a non-FI engine in their sports car MX5/RX-x lines (as they have publicly stated), I'm thinking the public will simply loose interest in Mazda, term them 'old school', and dismiss them out of hand, moving on to car companies that show "technology innovation" to them - and market the hell out of whatever it is. let's hope Sky-Active has some meaning to Americans, but I have my doubts.

===========================
As an example of Mazda's insistence of a "no frills - low technology" approach, I've been following the dual intoduction of the Mazda 2 and the Ford Focus.

The Focus seems to be talked about as a 'real car', with many faces (economy car, hatchback grocery getter, mild luxury car when optioned up, even performance car on the horizon with the ST version coming.... while in contrast the Mazda 2 is universally seen as a single model "cheap economy car" that doesn't even get good mileage. Oh yea, it's fun to drive, is given as a saving grace in most reviews.

Americans (at least) want car options - lots of options or mods as I'd call them. As for giving the potential Mazda 2 customer variety thru options - there are few to none. As for offering a Mazda 2 performance version - there is none and none coming. As for suppling a young new car buyer some excitment - there is none - oh ok - you can get it in green. If this is the path Mazda continues with upcoming introductions - single body entry, non optionable for luxury or looks, non-performance upgradable, non-FI, aka 'NICE' vanilla cars... they'll loose not only the enthusiast market, but the general market as well, ending up with bottom feeders looking for el cheapo transportation. That's a far cry from going upmarket towards the likes of BMW, etc., as has been speculated on.

So what do you think - Deja Vu (All Over Again)? Id say if Mazda makes a new RX I'm guessing it will be fairly lightweight, mildly powerful, non-FI, single model, few or no options, no performance model. IOW a non zoom-zoom car again. Being a somewhat bigger, somewhat more powerful MX5-like car with a rotary - it will continue the RX-8 lineage with discrete but scant sales after the diehards take their copies, despite the shortcomings. Mazda please prove me totally wrong here ....

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

from what I "hear", Mazda is going to try and stay as close to a 9/1 hp/wgt ration as possible.
yall are forgetting something when you speak of matching performance with other cars.
Transmissions.
I do hope a dual clutch trans is in the future for the rotary engined car.

Look how the Porsche boxer with a little over 300 hp just spanks the 2011 Mustang Gt on the road course.
I drive a 10/1 Rx8 (have S.C on).
If the chassis had more power than that---it would need a little changing.
presently a stock c5 vette is no match for me on the road coarse ( both have good tires and brake pads).
A dual clutch trans would really wake this car up---seriously.
OD

bse50

...Or you could take full use of your powerband
A dual clutch transmission is a good solution anyway, it robs the power we don't have though.
The boxster kicks the mustang's *** because the mustang is a big piece of shapeless crap if we take it from an engineering, unbiased point of view.

gwilliams6

No sports cars stay unchanged for 10 years anymore, there is too much advancement and innovation in technology that drivers want. As someone who has owned, raced and driven three generations of RX7s let me say that the first RX7 had a 12A engine (1.1 liters) just a solid 100 HP. In race trim with radical side porting and other engine and exhaust mods we could get 260hp out of it (non turbocharged). This is the car that ran and won in the string of Mazda's first GTU chanpionships . Then the 13b engine came out for the RX7 (1.3 liters) 130HP. In GTO race trim these engines were 300-350hp (non turbocharged) winning GTO crowns, and also the same engines were used successfully in winning GTP prototype cars.

Turbocharging the street and race configured 13B engines could yield anywhere from 300-450 hp. I know, my Racing Beat built ported and turbocharged rotary engine was nearly 400hp in my RX7 . Longevity at high boost was an issue, but these Racing Beat RX7's (sponsored by Car and Driver) set several class speed records at Bonneville, going over 200MPH !!

The stock next gen RX7 Turbo II was about 170HP. then 200HP. Then the RX7 FD came in with twin turbos and around 265HP. The main problem with the race as well as street turbos systems was cooling. On the race side we used special race radiators and oil coolers to keep everything together. this technology was first seen in the RX7 FD and later in a much more refined system in the RX8, where almost half of the seven+ quarts of oil is used just for cooling in the dual oil coolers. When you get an RX8 oil change they only change about four quarts, the rest stays in the coolers.

Mazda rotary engines,believe it or not, have legendary reliability and longevity IF TAKEN CARE OF PROPERLY. My first RX7 lasted seventeen years , even with turbo race engine modifications, until the last person who owned it burned up the engine running it hot without proper cool down. In racing we could run the same race rotary engines at full speed for a entire race season, while our Nissan Z and Porsche rivals were changing engines every other race !!

In street RXs, a properly maintained rotary will outlast its piston rival. Incorrect fuel mapping, incorrect warming up, incorrect cooling down killed the twin turbo engines on the FD, though mine was still going strong when it sold with over 100,000 miles on it. Also for us original FD owners, just as big a nail in this great cars coffin was the high insurance rates assigned this turbocharged speedster, and its small interior size for us big american drivers. I am 6ft 4 1/2 and had to literally squeeze myself into it, with minimal leg and head room. It was just too small and uncomfortable for many American enthusiasts who wanted to own one, and too expensive to insure.

Those issues were addressed with the RX8 which came in with plenty of driver room and a much lower insurance rate ( one of the reasons it was non-turbocharged). Bad engine starting and engine failures in the early models tarnished its award-winning rep. The bugs were sorted out with tweaks from Mazda and people finally learning how to own and properly maintain them in cold conditions. In racing now the RX8, both street bodied (two rotor) and tube-built bodied (Rolex Grand Am- three rotor ) have had great reliability and longevity with their engines, there just aren't engine problems.

But designing the next RX for the street IS different. We are all expecting the moon with the next car, and Mazda knows that. There are longtime RX nuts like me that will buy the next RX sight unseen and be happy for certain. But the younger crowd is more critical and Mazda must get it right this time RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. The challenge for Mazda is great, but the reward for getting it right is worth it. The inside word is a direct-injected 16X engine (1.6 liters) New technology, with an electric supercharger, 20% better fuel economy than the renesis engine, and mandated improved emissions. Shinara styling , lighter with a better power-to-weight ratio to give it top performance. We will see if the promise meets the expectations.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

gwilliams,

I can see you and Ash are going to be best of friends .

Paul.

Spin9k

^ comment on the longevity of rotary engines.

Personally, I'd say that what you say about engine longevity is just plain wrong. Your car(s) may have lasted, but oh so many have not, sadly. Against all facts, just saying basically "They weren't taken car of right - i.e., it's the drivers fault.", hardly explains the 100s-1000s of blown RX-8 engines from drivers of all types, doing different things, different driving styles, etc. Not to mention the USA rotary engine factory reconditioning plant mazda built JUST to take care of blown engines from a small production car like the RX-8. That says a lot. My way of looking at it, if Mazda can't make an engine that everyday people can drive and not have it blow up - regularly - well it's not a reliable engine in my book. Because I EXPECT my engine to blow, I have accepted the problems resulting...as long as mazda sorta picks up the tab for fixing them. Just saying....

My RX-2 blew 2, maybe 3 engines (too long ago) in it's short 40,000 life with me. That was a long time ago. My 2004 RX-8 blew it's wad at about 32,000 miles. I haven't put enough miles to get it to do it again. ***ALL*** the other cars I've owned in my lifetime have blown **ZERO** engines. Emperical as that may be (just like your experience) - I'd say Mazda is still learning how to make a rotary last.

MattMPS

bse50 can confirm that the biggers problems here in EU (Italy) are caused by ignorance about rotary engines both from customers and Assistance Network.

I'm sure that gwilliam6 is correct and this is one of the motivations of my signin' in this forum. Know more things and possibily the "Truth" about rotary powered cars from Mazda

bse50

Amen.
Plus, gwilliams was talking about race applications. There i can say that the average 40-50hrs of expected life out of a piston engine must be multiplied by 2 in the average NA rotary

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I find it interesting how anecdotal evidence in support of religion will overwhelm the otherwise rational thinking in believers.
But, as I've said elsewhere:

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

I have to chuckle every time I read a comment like this. I suspect people have been saying such things as long as Mazda has been making sports cars.

I recall having these exact same discussions in the Miata forums 15 years ago. The next Miata *had* to make big horsepower and get great 0-60 times to compete. The times are changing and if you don't change with them, you are going to be left behind.

Guess what? There is a market for lighter sports cars that reward differently than a 1/4 mile machine. Miatas are still light and low power, and still sell well. Some of us like our cars that way, and that's who Mazda sells to. They are wise not to go head-to-head with BMW. Porsche as the same philosophy, just at a higher price point (and performance point).

The RX-8 was a bit of a miss-fire, due to mileage & reliability problems (perceived or otherwise). I also think they strayed too far from the "light is right" philosophy - had the RX-8 been a two door & 300 lbs lighter I suspect it would have sold better (but that's just a guess, obviously).

I'm hoping they do the RX-9 - I'll buy one if they do.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

MM --- Its "faith"

Beg to differ on a couple points posted.
1-- Renesis race engines do not last long. They do not "blow" but they do loose power in less than or right at 20hrs. The side seal and side seal springs seems to be the issue. Its not a matter of overall cooling etc --it seems to be the 90 degree turn the exhaust flow is having to take to get out. They loose enough power that it makes them much less competitive in their class.

2- Most all street na engines ( a lot!) I know that needed replacing did not "blow". They did loose compression, but they were actually running fine. They did take a longer to crank, etc however.

Mazda has really manned up in replacing engines. You have to admit that.

Its interesting that proper cool down has been mentioned. I have been and always will be an adovate for the electric water pump for this engine and that is one of the reasons why.
The next rotary may have one? I do believe that with better fan control and a secondary EWP the heat issues would go away. Desert boys excluded.
The direct injection will help some with the egt's.
I do think that if volkswagon can do a twin clutch, then mazda can also.

On top of that--the car need a better, less friction producing differental.

ASH8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdqjvMKkxp8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyVr_gV5vq0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk9fmiTdXs0

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

^I love it!

Thanks for posting, Ash. Makes my point exactly.

Spin9k

I like how Mazda is 'feel good' company doing the impossible the right way, against the odds, because it's their destiny. Gotta love 'em.

zoom44

and despite Jeff's skepticism these folks really believe what they say. sure they use it the marketing but the marketers didnt make it up- they just package it for your viewing pleasure