Paid $2.99 for a gallon of premium yesterday
#126
Originally Posted by rx8wannahave
^I think I'm going to pour gas every week now so I can "fake" the feeling of spending less...lol. I didn't really like $30...let alone $40.
I can almost guarantee that by July, that will probably be closer to $48.
For 13 gallons of gas.
I feel sorry for the poor bastards driving Suburbans with 40 gallon tanks.
#127
Int'l Man of Mystery
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sti_eric
Exactly correct. Government already has many laws and regulations in place in regards to monopolies, price fixing, gas mileage standards, etc, etc. I have yet to see a good argument that states why we need more regulations and the benefit that we would receive from said regulations.
When their is a will there is a way...
Necessity (more like greed) is the mother of invention...
Humans' adpatablility and inherent selfishness will always find away around "problems" if given enough time and enough motivation. These supposed regulations and restraints aren't so effective today. There is plenty of price fixing, collusion and monopolies that take place today without any government intervention or with only a "slap on the wrist."
It's rather naive to think that pure market economics is what's controlling energy prices (significant factor, yes. The only factor...).
#128
Registered
Is it any suprise that the oil industry is sticking it to the citizens. You seem suprised? GWB cant serve another term. All of his cronies are Big Oil and they are raking in big profits at our expense. Don't expect anything to change, you voted for him now pay up bitches!
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 04-19-2006 at 01:03 PM.
#129
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Apalachin, NY
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bascho
I personally would like to see more diesel offerings here in the US.....but not at the sake of increased emissions. Just because Europe is more lax on the subject does not make it ok.
Originally Posted by bascho
I can understand your point of view regarding environmental legislation as a whole.....but why has Tier II tail pipe emission legislation got you this emotional?
The other problem for me is that all these people crying about high gas prices and crying about how the government is controlled by big oil are the same ones who wanted these ultra-strict emissions laws to be enacted. Environmentalists are the ones who have restricted power supply, restricted diesel engine production, restricted refineries from being built. Now these are the very same people who are crying about high gas prices. Well, what did you think was going to happen?
Originally Posted by bascho
Has it stopped Ford from bringing a 475hp Mustang to the world? Has is stopped GM from bringing a 505hp Vette to the world?
Last edited by sti_eric; 04-19-2006 at 12:55 PM.
#131
.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Motorcity
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt
Is it any suprise that the oil industry is sticking it to the citizens. You seem suprised? GWB cant serve another term. All of his cronies are Big Oil and they are raking in big profits at our expense. Don't expect anything to change, you voted for him now pay up bitches!
#132
Int'l Man of Mystery
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sti_eric
Wrong. There is far more money being invested by the Warren Buffets of the world than by people who would need to take money out of their investments to pay for necessities.
Wrong again. If gas gets to the point of pain, consumers WILL adapt and change their habits.
At the point we are at now, you are correct. But that is because we have been spoiled with very low gas prices for a long time. We have not yet reached the point of pain, so all we have are a lot of complainers and no one actually changing their habits. When we reach the point of pain, people will begin to change their habits.
What evidence do you have that there will be mass changes due to high energy costs? Even the 70's oil crisis is a poor measure because of several factors that make the situation now not really the same as then... other than rapidly rising gasoline prices.
Incorrect, again. Mercedes Benz only has one diesel car here, the E320 CDI. In the UK, they have 35. The E320 CDI gets 37 mpg. However, you cannot buy one in California, New York, Massachusetts, Maine, or Vermont because of their overly strict environmental regulations. As it is, it barely meets federal EPA standards. Most European diesels cannot be imported here because they do not meet the overly-strict EPA guidelines.
#133
.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Motorcity
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Japan8
My view... idiots need to put off beating on automakers for tighter emissions on new cars at this point in time and focus their efforts on getting dirty, gas guzzling old cars off the road. While they're at it, things like power plants should be cleaned up more too.
But what would the 13,000,000 illegal immigrants drive around then?
#134
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Apalachin, NY
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Japan8
What makes you an expert on this one?
Originally Posted by Japan8
What evidence do you have that there will be mass changes due to high energy costs?
#135
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Apalachin, NY
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bascho
But what would the 13,000,000 illegal immigrants drive around then?
#138
Int'l Man of Mystery
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sti_eric
Don't remember saying that I was an "expert". Just on here giving my opinions, like everyone else. However, I do believe that what we know about economics and what history has shown us is on my side.
Besides what economic theory and history has shown us to be true...there is Europe. Gas costs up to $8 a gallon there. As a result, well over 50% of the cars sold there are energy efficient diesels which can get over 50 mpg. I dare say that if gas here got up to $8/gallon, there would be many, many, many people who would want to ditch their gas hog SUVs for diesels.
#139
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Apalachin, NY
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Japan8
Uh, no it hasn't and that's why we're disagreeing. Economics may support your arguments (may... as things like collusion, gov't corruption, etc. etc. haven't been accounted for), however, history does not. Europe serves as a very poor example. The 70's oil crisis is a better fit and even then the differences between then and now make it hard to draw a strong conclusion.
Also let it be known that the long lines at the gas stations in 1973 were a direct result of the price controls placed on gasoline at the time. Once again showing that price controls only cause shortages.
#140
Int'l Man of Mystery
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sti_eric
The 1973 oil crisis is a spectacular example of what I am talking about, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. As a direct result of rising gas prices (among other factors), US auto makers turned their focus from giant, big block land barges to more fuel efficient and front wheel drive vehicles. This is a great example of how the market reacts to consumer demands.
Also let it be known that the long lines at the gas stations in 1973 were a direct result of the price controls placed on gasoline at the time. Once again showing that price controls only cause shortages.
Also let it be known that the long lines at the gas stations in 1973 were a direct result of the price controls placed on gasoline at the time. Once again showing that price controls only cause shortages.
I'll give you the example of price controls during the oil crisis, but that's just about it.
US companies didn't change to small front wheel drive cars as a direct result of the oil crisis. They did because that is what the JAPANESE auto makers offered and THEIR cars were selling... initially because they were significantly more fuel efficient and cheap.
Fast forward to 2006... outside of the Korean makers, there are no "new" or "low cost" auto makers out there to offer a better machine for us. Technologies that may or do increase fuel economy only results in a higher sticker for the car. 6 of one, half dozen of another? Alternative fuels, etc... would cost us enormous amount per vehicle. Ever noticed the difference in society between then and now? That's something...
#142
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Apalachin, NY
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Japan8
US companies didn't change to small front wheel drive cars as a direct result of the oil crisis. They did because that is what the JAPANESE auto makers offered and THEIR cars were selling... initially because they were significantly more fuel efficient and cheap.
Originally Posted by Japan8
Fast forward to 2006... outside of the Korean makers, there are no "new" or "low cost" auto makers out there to offer a better machine for us. Technologies that may or do increase fuel economy only results in a higher sticker for the car. 6 of one, half dozen of another? Alternative fuels, etc... would cost us enormous amount per vehicle. Ever noticed the difference in society between then and now? That's something...
However, I disagree with "Technologies that may or do increase fuel economy only results in a higher sticker for the car." Diesel technology is a technology that we have right now, and on average costs marginally more than a gas engine (usually in the $100-$1000 range). In the UK, a BMW 118i starts at 17,800 and gets 36 mpg, while a 118d starts at 17,885 and gets 50+ mpg.
#144
Blue By You
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 8,717
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The new Prius is rumored to make over 100mpg and be quicker than the current model, at that rate it WILL be worth it if you're looking to save money.
On a side note, premium is up to 3.10 in my area today.
On a side note, premium is up to 3.10 in my area today.
#146
Registered
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 3,754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bascho
I did not say that the cost of crude oil is not a large portion of the cost of gas.....just that their are other factors. Gas costs $2.89 which means $1.30 (2.89 - 1.59 = 1.30) of that cost has nothing to do with crude oil price.
That 64 cents includes the cost of refining (which is proportional to fuel costs) and profits which are effected by the lack of refineries... if you take a look back in history over 5 years, the gas prices have been increased over $1 per gallon because of crude oil costs compared to 50 cents for the variable refining costs. Bottom line is its still the crude prices killing us.
#147
Registered
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 3,754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt
Is it any suprise that the oil industry is sticking it to the citizens. You seem suprised? GWB cant serve another term. All of his cronies are Big Oil and they are raking in big profits at our expense. Don't expect anything to change, you voted for him now pay up bitches!
over 80% of Exxonmobil's profits last year was a direct result of profit made from pulling crude out of the ground for $20/barrel and selling at the market dictated price of $60+/barrel. They did not set the rediculous price, that is what the worldwide stock market is dictating the price of oil is... nothing they can do about it.
As per my above post, the profits of turning crude oil into gasoline is zilch - that is the place they can stick it to the consumer and they absolutely are not.
So please, show me where "Big Oil" is sticking it to citizens with something called PROOF instead of meaningless accusations.
#149
Int'l Man of Mystery
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sti_eric
I get where you're trying to go here. First you are arguing with me, now it seems like you are agreeing. Here, you are saying the exact same thing that I am...the market (consumers) dictated the move from large gas guzzlers to smaller, more fuel efficient cars. The Japanese cars were selling because they were small and fuel efficient. This is what consumers wanted, so that is what the market provided. Simple economics. Same thing will happen with rising gas prices now.
Again, you are basically saying the same thing that I have been saying. Alternative vehicles cost more money than conventional gas vehicles. Since gas has been so cheap, there has been no incentive for consumers to buy or manufacturers to produce vehicles which use alternative fuel sources.
However, I disagree with "Technologies that may or do increase fuel economy only results in a higher sticker for the car." Diesel technology is a technology that we have right now, and on average costs marginally more than a gas engine (usually in the $100-$1000 range). In the UK, a BMW 118i starts at 17,800 and gets 36 mpg, while a 118d starts at 17,885 and gets 50+ mpg.
A diesel engine is not a technology that increases fuel economy. It's an alternative fuel. Technology that increase fuel economy are things like hybrid cars... I am refering to improving the efficiency of gasoline powered internal combustion engines.
I've never argued against diesels here... making this yet again another strawman. However, I will say that they are more expensive, heavier (crash protection issues), and historically slow performers. Yes, recent models from particuarly MB are showing pretty decent performance now, but we'll see how that works out when one tries to apply it to cars like a Civic Si.
Also... I agree with Bascho on the emissions issue with diesels. I don't see any reason to allow them to blow smog producing exhaust just in the name of savings a few dollars. I'm no major envrionmentalist, but I do also like clean air and hate hot weather.
You also haven't addressed the fact that then isn't now. The yen isn't at the fixed exchange rate of $1 USD = 360 yen anymore. Bretton Woods system collapsing in 1971, being replaced by the Plaza Accord of 1985. The change of the US economy from manufacturing based to service based. The growth of the overal size of the US economy since 1970. The changes in the international monetary/financial system since 1970 and near impossiblity of governments causing lasting affects on the exchange rate by buying/selling currency. There are a host of other things that can be named as well...
AAAAND... as I mentioned previously, the Japanese don't extensively drive diesel and gas is pretty damn expensive here. No everyone doesn't ride the train... if they did traffic would be much better and there are no trains to take to places if you don't live in Tokyo. Even in nearby Saitama prefecture you need a car. You can train to work and back, but after that you need a car to go shopping, etc. So again... like I said... Europe is not a valid example/parallel to use here. America is NOT Europe for many reasons and even the 1973 oil crisis is not a perfect match for the present situation. Japan is a closer match for comparison to Europe... social services, taxes, land space, cost of living, energy costs... but still they don't extensively use diesel.
Last edited by Japan8; 04-19-2006 at 09:32 PM.
#150
Out of NYC
iTrader: (1)
drove around and I think Gas prices in NYC has been what, I think over the 3.00 mark since a week ago. Last I checked (just before, got home not long ago) was 3.15 at a local BP and 3.10 at mobil. (Premium, of course)
Sigh .... Lets see.
Diesel is not an answer, STI_Eric. yes its one of the way to increase fuel economy simply because it burns slower, since most of the Diesel , I think you can pretty much say its "left overs" when they make Gasoline. They produce alot more SMOG than Gasoline powered cars. I dont really care about Black smoke but I do care about the Ice melting all over the place.
I see more and more commericals from GM/Ford, both trying to tell people that
"Use Ethanol, AKA E85 ! Flex Fuel blah blah blah"
As far as I know theres NO gas station can pump E85, at least in New York City. and funny thing is most people still dont know WTF is E85/Ethanol, they wonder wtf is Ethanol why the pump saids theres MAX 10% added to the fuel?
some even said "You cant put Corn Oil into cars! its going to mess it up !" sigh ...
Yes some GM/Ford models can use Flex Fuel, but they dont even mention it much at the showroom. and most of the Auto companies out there does NOT have any rebates/incentives on Hybird cars. AND they usually cost maybe a few K more than their Gasoline only buddies. and those few K can buy u quite alot of gas. and dont forget, Hybird car's reliability ..... is unknown at this time. I have a feeling that we're going to see alot of "dead" Prius maybe 2-3 years from now. and most people would scream because its going to cost like 4 thousand bucks to replace the batteries.
What they need to do now is, come up with something that can use less fuel while making more power. more E85. or at least tell people that you can get Tax cut if you buy a Hybird/Flew Fuel auto(most people dont even know!)
Sigh .... Lets see.
Diesel is not an answer, STI_Eric. yes its one of the way to increase fuel economy simply because it burns slower, since most of the Diesel , I think you can pretty much say its "left overs" when they make Gasoline. They produce alot more SMOG than Gasoline powered cars. I dont really care about Black smoke but I do care about the Ice melting all over the place.
I see more and more commericals from GM/Ford, both trying to tell people that
"Use Ethanol, AKA E85 ! Flex Fuel blah blah blah"
As far as I know theres NO gas station can pump E85, at least in New York City. and funny thing is most people still dont know WTF is E85/Ethanol, they wonder wtf is Ethanol why the pump saids theres MAX 10% added to the fuel?
some even said "You cant put Corn Oil into cars! its going to mess it up !" sigh ...
Yes some GM/Ford models can use Flex Fuel, but they dont even mention it much at the showroom. and most of the Auto companies out there does NOT have any rebates/incentives on Hybird cars. AND they usually cost maybe a few K more than their Gasoline only buddies. and those few K can buy u quite alot of gas. and dont forget, Hybird car's reliability ..... is unknown at this time. I have a feeling that we're going to see alot of "dead" Prius maybe 2-3 years from now. and most people would scream because its going to cost like 4 thousand bucks to replace the batteries.
What they need to do now is, come up with something that can use less fuel while making more power. more E85. or at least tell people that you can get Tax cut if you buy a Hybird/Flew Fuel auto(most people dont even know!)