koolaid80

All these cars will be out soon (the Evo being the first, followed by the RX8 and the STi), and all have exceptional handling and power. They will also, most likely, be around the 30k range, and be competing against one another. I know there have been comparisons made between the RX-8 and the 350Z, but has anyone around here considered the "rally" sedans? They've been proven handling performers in the WRC for years, and may give the 8 a run for its money. Any thoughts about that (Herc)?
I know I'm going to want to see some shootouts between all 3 cars before I put money down on anything.

morganrogers

Interesting question -

They are certainly all quick cars , and all due out soon. However , I am not really sure they are fair to compare -

Evo8 and Sti are both amazing machines. They are also both 4wd , unlike the RX8.

They are also both forced induction, unlike the RX8. Now awesome as these machines are (and I prepare myself to get shot down here) There is nothing particularly elegant about forced induction.
"We need loads of power"
"stick a turbo on it !"
The Subaru in particular must be a rather inefficient engine.
Looking at the power for the NA subaru , the 2.0 produces a miserable 120bhp and still only manages 26MPG. That is dire !
Only by whacking a turbo on it do they and real power at all.
Compare to the RX8 , which not only has a NA system , but it has a rotary as well - Now that is truely innovative.

Then the bodyshell. The Evo and Subaru are both based on rather ordinary saloons. Can we really put the RX8 shell into this category ?

Lastly (for now , until the flame war starts) the price.
Here in the UK the Sti is £26,995 (I believe)
The evo8 is *rumoured) to be £25,995.
RX8 is £21,995 in high power guise. Now that is cheap compared.

In conclusion - The evo and Sti will be fine , fast[er?] cars - but I think those in the market for an RX8 will be looking for something different to what they offer.
The rx8 will be unique in the marketplace - and for that Mazda must be applauded !

All opinions purely my own etc etc....

Morgan.

morganrogers

PS- I love the 'lilac' colour offered on the UK evo8s however !
Not to everyones taste , but there you go ....

quicks8

Take this with a grain of salt because this is just what I have gathered from a few sparse articles and rumors flying around the Net:

I know Subaru is coming out with a new WRX, (whether it is this STi model or not I don't recall), that will have something like 300 HP. Yes it will have more HP than the 8 and will be AWD and will in all speculation handle better.

That all being said, I think that WRX and the 8 are aimed at different audiences. For example the awesome leather interior, heated seats, heated exterior mirrors, DVD Nav and other creature comforts of the 8 are not going to be offered on the new WRX. That is, at least from what I have read they are not planning on offering them.

Personally, being from OH and with the winters we sometimes get and the traveling that I do, I am more than willing to sacrifice some power and handling for a little better ride and all the associated options.

I HATE IT WHEN I GET ICE ON MY SIDE VIEW MIRRORS!!!

max_stirling

Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if the RX-8 could keep up with or maybe even be faster than the Evo or STi on a race course. I'm no fool. Both the Evo and STi will school the RX-8 in 0-60 and 1/4 times, but the little rotary does have a few more track friendly characteristics.

First being RWD instead of AWD. AWD only translates to better handling in the snow, around a dry track RWD is king. Second, less weight. Handling superiority will only be determined at the track comparo, though we have heard that the RX-8 will handle better than the RX-7 and the 3rd gen was no slouch in that department.

Hercules

Don't forget that RWD is more fun than AWD

Edit: Since I was asked by name I'll throw in a few more thoughts

I like RWD not for the fact that it's better on a track (dry) but because it allows me to do stupid things that I am limited from doing in AWD... Gas the car on an exit and you can kick the tail out, countersteer and you can drift.

Donuts

I've found that doing a 360 is easier in a RWD car, even a FWD car than an AWD car (and yes I've done it in all of them, I attempted to do it in a Subaru Legacy of my uncle's, to no fruit).

And it's more balanced. The weight the RX-8 saves from NOT being AWD to me benefits more than it having it. It's more nimble and agile for that reason.

And as it was said, the RX-8 looks better. The interior quality is going to be scores above the STi/Evo. There is a great amount of power in the STi but if I wanted that I could easily have gotten a Mustang; I prefer to have the balance, weight, and engineering prowess that's in the RX-8 instead of the *****-to-the-wall AWD STi/Evo.

R.Cade

Styling wise, there is no comparison. I've never been fond of the late 80's Ford Escort look

RX8-Rob

As a rotary nut and a rally fool, let me clear up some points here.

The STI will be faster than the RX8, everywhere. This car is a wet dream for those that like tech specs. It's a 2.5l built boxer with a turbo and it makes 300hp and 300lb/ft of torque and redlines at 7000rpm to 7500rpm. It has Subaru's new 6 speed bulletproof gearbox, a viscous front diff, a mechanical rear diff and a driver controlled center differential which the driver can adjust the power bias front/rear from 50:50 to 35:65 f/r, giving it rear wheel drive like handling characteristics (ever seen a 22B do a power slide? Same system.) The car also has Brembo brakes, a Momo steering wheel, racing seats and comes with semi-slick tires and BBS wheels. It is a very amazing package and Subaru is taking no prisoners. Period.

That said, it's very, VERY different from the RX8. It is still a sedan, still doesn't look great even with the new front end, and doesn't have the best quality interior. Given its weight distribution, it won't have the razor sharp turn in the RX8 deserves to have. It also won't feel like a low slung sports car like the RX8. Also, expect the STI to cost between $32,000 and $35,000US. More than a fully loaded RX8.

The EVO8 will be closer matched to RX8 in terms of overall performance, it has 271hp and 273lb/ft of torque from a 2.0l inline-4 which shares roots with those engines used in the old turbo Eclipses. It forgoes a lot of the high tech electronics used in the EVO7 to reduce cost and complexity. Expect those devices to return in the EVO9 given what Subaru has done with the STi.

If it were my money, it'd be a really hard choice between the STi and the RX8. They are very different cars, but both really, really appeal to me. One of each in my garage would be the way to go.

The good thing about all this competition is that a Mazdaspeed RX-8 is almost a certainty, and I'm sure they will beef up the power appropriately. Make no mistake, the Japanese manufacturers have declared war with each other over North America, are taking no prisoners, and the outcome will only be beneficial to us enthusiasts. Don't forget there is a 400hp GTR on the way to us too . . .

wakeech

WTF ?????? since when did Nissan get ***** and try to sell a GT-R in muscle country?? and i thought they are going out of production, with a final run, N1 spec bunch of cars (but there are only gonna be 1000 of those...)
????????????

m477

Both the STi and RX-8 are great cars, but have totally different purposes.

Sure the STi has a lot of power, but the suspension is just McStruts, and the motor is high up and way forward in the engine bay. The RX-8 suspension is much more sophisticated (dbl wishbone and multilink), and the engine and everything of any weight is extremely low and as close to the center of the car as possible.

Believe me, there are huge benefits to both the mid-engined layout and the better suspension. Mazda wouldn't have bothered with them if there wasn't.

On most tracks or AutoX, the RX-8 will have the advantage. In a straight line or a rally course, the STi has the advantage.

For me personally, the RX-8 better fits what I'm into (track, auto-x), and I'm not gonna spend $30k+ on a brand new car and then drive it in the mud. If I really wanted a straight-line car, I would just pick up an F-body, they're pretty cheap these days. The STi's engine is good and all, but for that purpose you just can't argue with a 5.7L V8.

eccles

And can you imagine how much it'll cost to insure one of those suckers?!?

koolaid80

The STi's are built for autoX, and dry weather tracks too. The EVO 7 has been tearing up road courses due to it's AWD system, and the STi's AWD is even better. The STi's do well on the road, in the mud, and in the 1/4 mile. If you haven't driven a well equipped STi, then you don't know the kind of skidpad-esque performance it can dish out. The EVO8 has a skidpad rating of over 1 g, if you're telling me that thing won't be able to squeeze the hell out of a slab of tarmac, then I want some of what you're smoking. Also, lots of the guys on this forum ordered 8's with all the options, and that ended up costing 32k. Who needs NAV in a supposed AutoX car? Not to mention that the new EVO8 is going to be coming in at a measly 25g's. I'd be willing to bet that it's going to give the RX-8 a run for it's handling money.

The reason I started this forum up is to compare the other top AutoX cars to the RX-8, since most of you seem to be buying the 8 for just that purpose. RX-8 Rob put it best thus far.

Dawg

Top Gear magazine has a preview drive of the RX-8 at the Mazda proving ground, and the editor wrote "on a long straight, the RX-8 would be right on the bumper of an STi, even though the initial acceleration is less brutal".
I agree, if all goes well the RX-8 should keep up with an STi on a road course, which is an enormous achievement.

Brian_RX

The STI and EVO have been changing their out-looking how many time that i can't remember. The style between EVO7 and EVO8 in only two years. Therefore, Lancer Evolution is VALUELESS car. The STI is the valueless, too. However, the RX-8 is valued car as RX-7. Why the RWD is more Popular than others such as the RX-7? The RX-8 has good DNA from the RX-7. The Rotary engine is unique. All folks think about this fact :D i don't want my new car bacome old car without two or three years and without pay-off the car. Therefore, i will not consider the EVO and STI.

RX8-Rob

It's a well known fact that the next GTR will be a world car, and will be coming to this continent, probably in 2005. It will (probably) have a 3.3l V6 with twin electrically assisted turbos. The electric motors will spool up the turbos rather than wait for exhaust gas pressure. This means that there will be no turbo lag on this car, but still have the high end power that two good sized turbos can produce. Rumors are it will make 400hp.

BTW, the British STi is very different to the STi we are getting. Ours is considerably more powerful and has the DCCD system, which the Brits don't. There is no doubt that the STi is in a class above the RX8. It's like saying my S2000 will keep up with one, which it just won't. Face it, there will always be faster cars out there, which is not always a bad thing.

revhappy

The european spec EVO VII finished fourth in Road & Track's best handling cars competition last year (behind the Ferrari 360 Modena, Lotus Elise and Porshe 911 Turbo). Granted, our version will be a bit watered down, but I'm sure it'll still offer fine handling. The RX8, while looking great on paper, still hasn't had its handling prowess proven in the world..yet..at least.

Handling can be subjective, and different kinds of cars can be different types of good handlers. Personally, I prefer a light, tossable car such as the S2000 and the RX8 (at least i hope it ends up to be). However, if the RX8 ends up being too bland, I would consider the Lancer Evolution and even the STI (though I think it has more power than I want! )

From an objective performance point of view, I think the RX8 will be hard-pressed keeping up with either of these two rally cars. In some ways, its kind of similar to comparing the RSX-S to the WRX. The RSX-S is lighter, higher reving, more refined, but ultimately offers less overall performance (including handling) for the $.

Hercules

I think the main part in reviewers saying that the RX-8 will 'keep up' with the STi/Evo is that the top speed on the WRX and Evo aren't that high, because rally cars don't hit top speeds while racing, so they are designed differently.

And besides it remains to be seen what kind of pull they have at higher rev ranges.. the STi/Evo will definately be faster, but I think the RX-8 will be more fun

m477

AWD doesn't mean better handling. The suspension keeping as much rubber to the ground as possible means better handling, and a double wishbone simply does a better job of keeping more rubber on the road that struts. Period.

When the FD came out, it was tested by R&T to be the fastest car around a track, faster than a Porsche 911 Turbo. The 911 Turbo had better acceleration AND better braking, but still turned slower track times than the FD. The 911 had struts and the FD had the same double-wishbone/multilink that the RX-8 has. Nuff said.

Lateral g's doesn't necessarily equate better track times, IIRC the MK4 Supra pulled close to 1 g, and it isn't really the best track car, and certainly not a good auto-x car at all...

Hercules

Thanks m

m477

Here is an image from the artice I was talking about. It speaks for itself.

Spining Ncnratr

Thats it both EVO/STI are true sedans with porkly drivetrains and one Boxter the other Inline piston engines which weigh at least 150 lb more than the Renisis the Ren weights 332 lbs and a 2.0
Boxter out of a WRX weights 420 lbs Curb weight for RX8 is 2900
(I know I rounded it ) and the other 2 weight any where from 3300 to 3700 lbs. Now the truth is slowly coming out its Power to weight Ratio which the RX8 holds hands down. Old Newton law of physics still apply. It takes less force to move a lighter object and keep it moving over a heavier object.

Buger

Hopefully the RX-8 will be around 2900. I believe the renesis itself is actually around 273 lbs not 332 lbs. There were two articles that mentioned 270 - 273 lbs. I believe there was also one article that mentioned 338 lbs, but I think they just got the engine height mixed up with the weight. The height of the renesis is 338mm.

Brian

ricdanger

Have tested the Suby....

My God... what an awful (and aweful) car.

Loads of acceleration but absolutely NO CLASS. The interior is plasticky, ***** are loose and they just understeer all the time.

Even my MX-6 with it's fat body, FWD and 65/35 weight distribution doesn't understeer anything near this car. (The 6 has been balanced up a bit, mind you, with the battery in the boot and a stiffer rear sway bar - now is *very* nearly neutral, but still won't lift off oversteer due to 4WS).

The 8 is pure class... can't wait.

FritzMan

Although it's all highly spculative since we don't know the performance number yet, but I'm pretty sure that on a tight'ish but flowing track a stock RX-8 should at the least keep up with the other 2 cars. AutoX (torque and traction and lack momentum are at a premium), and high speed tracks would likely favour the Evo and Sti on power and traction alone. How much though? Although the Sti has a 50 hp advantage, it's heavier (by at least a couple hunder pounds), and wil most likely have more mechanical drivetrain loss due to the the all-wheel drive. The gap should be even less to the EVO 8 with it's 278hp. Having said that, on long straights the 8 would still probably loose ground, how much though is still a question with it's better aerodynamics.

Centre of gravity, polar inertia, and suspension design will also all be superior to the 8's. Don't forget we're talking about a performance suspension package on the 8 as well.The brakes may also be better on the 8, simply because the lower curb weight and lower centre of gravity (they're also really damn big!). Brake fade may be a weakness though.

While 4 wheel drive typically understeers on tarmac, exotic diff's can help hide a lot of that trait. Unfortunately, from what I've read, the Evo (and possible the Sti) will be getting watered-down mechanical units instead of the tarmac-optimal computer controlled electronic diffs.

Yes, different marketed cars. But given the track layout , the results could be very close.

koolaid80

FYI, the max speed of the evo and the sti are both 150+ mph, and the STi has a max rpm of right around 7000 rpm, not to mention that the STi and evo have more torque, and torque AND hp is what really counts on the track.