RX-9 to be a hybrid!
05-21-2011 | 05:56 PM
#29
"I wanna go fast!"
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 330
Likes: 1
From: East Fishkill NY
Using a platform that mirrors the size and dimensions of the 1989 mx5? That's a buzzkill for me.
Those cars were way too little for my taste. And with more and more people buying big SUVs and trucks, its a death trap. The current miata is as small as i would go.
Such a shame.
Those cars were way too little for my taste. And with more and more people buying big SUVs and trucks, its a death trap. The current miata is as small as i would go.
Such a shame.
05-21-2011 | 09:17 PM
#30
Call me Thread killer
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
From: Tampa Bay area Florida
The artist rendition is pretty close to the tease they have in the new commerical, look at what drifts in at about 17 seconds.
I'll wait and see what kind of power it will make. Should be intresting.
http://youtu.be/KSIV7NpkIEE
I'll wait and see what kind of power it will make. Should be intresting.
http://youtu.be/KSIV7NpkIEE
05-21-2011 | 10:42 PM
#31
Registered
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 1
From: Sheboygan Falls, Wisconsin
No matter what they do, they had better get it right this time. This is do or die for the rotary. The RX-8 has been a huge letdown for many rotary enthusiasts and has gotten a bad rap pretty much from day 1. Hopefully they can get it figured out, starting with the torque and mpg. Those 2 things alone would go a long way towards making the car more appealing to a larger audience and if they can significantly improve on those, folks may be much more willing to overlook the fact that it may be a bit underpowered relative to it's competition.
05-21-2011 | 10:43 PM
#32
Registered
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 1
From: Sheboygan Falls, Wisconsin
The artist rendition is pretty close to the tease they have in the new commerical, look at what drifts in at about 17 seconds.
I'll wait and see what kind of power it will make. Should be intresting.
http://youtu.be/KSIV7NpkIEE
I'll wait and see what kind of power it will make. Should be intresting.
http://youtu.be/KSIV7NpkIEE
05-21-2011 | 11:06 PM
#33
The artist rendition is pretty close to the tease they have in the new commerical, look at what drifts in at about 17 seconds.
I'll wait and see what kind of power it will make. Should be intresting.
http://youtu.be/KSIV7NpkIEE
I'll wait and see what kind of power it will make. Should be intresting.
http://youtu.be/KSIV7NpkIEE
05-22-2011 | 02:28 AM
#34
Rotary Power!
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Marysville, Ca
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother trying to get people to understand that Mazda HAS ALWAYS...and will CONTINUE to produce the lowest powered sports cars in their respective segments. It's a known fact from numerous designers and developers over the years within Mazda that they intentionally do not compete on power.
They are still increasing the power, they aren't immune to that, but they don't compete for any titles there. EXPECT the next RX to have less power than whatever car it's competing against.
So if you get your 500hp car like you want, it will be priced against 600-800hp supercars.
Personally, that will mean that they won't make money on them, they won't sell very many, and rotary development would die. I don't want that. I want to drive the next one they make, which means I have to be able to afford it.
They will probably hit the 300hp mark, but be much lighter than their competitors, as they usually do, but to an even greater degree than before so the acceleration that everyone else cares about won't be all that far behind. But superhuman suspension again. Probably even better than the 8's.
You apparently missed what I wrote earlier.
The Prius is a PARALLEL hybrid, which is retarded, and gives the cars LOTS of drawbacks.
All they have to do is make it a SERIES hybrid, and it won't have those penalties, and be far more efficient. And they could even make it transmission based, where some gears dump the engine power to the ground for fire breathing fun, and another gear turns the engine into a generator for an electric engine for max fuel economy.
I'd buy that!
They are still increasing the power, they aren't immune to that, but they don't compete for any titles there. EXPECT the next RX to have less power than whatever car it's competing against.
So if you get your 500hp car like you want, it will be priced against 600-800hp supercars.
Personally, that will mean that they won't make money on them, they won't sell very many, and rotary development would die. I don't want that. I want to drive the next one they make, which means I have to be able to afford it.
They will probably hit the 300hp mark, but be much lighter than their competitors, as they usually do, but to an even greater degree than before so the acceleration that everyone else cares about won't be all that far behind. But superhuman suspension again. Probably even better than the 8's.
You apparently missed what I wrote earlier.
The Prius is a PARALLEL hybrid, which is retarded, and gives the cars LOTS of drawbacks.
All they have to do is make it a SERIES hybrid, and it won't have those penalties, and be far more efficient. And they could even make it transmission based, where some gears dump the engine power to the ground for fire breathing fun, and another gear turns the engine into a generator for an electric engine for max fuel economy.
I'd buy that!
05-22-2011 | 03:01 AM
#35
Rotary Power!
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Marysville, Ca
The Rotary, turbo or not, will last if its well kept. I had two S4 FC Turbos, one with full boltons, 12psi and had 100psi compression front and rear with 180k+ miles and a bone stock one with 200k+ miles with 100+ psi compression. I have yet to blow a Rotary motor and I drive em hard like they are supposed to be driven. I also had 5 other S5 FC turbos, one I put 50k miles on a low mileage jdm engine before selling it and it had 105 psi front and 100 rear and is still running today with the kid that bought it 3-4 years ago. I also kno a guy that has 200k miles on his bonestock FD and it still runs strong and has no flooding issues but its been well maintained. The only bad Rotary engine I ever had was the seized engine I bought from jdmengines in canada and my first FC which already had blown coolant seals from a guy who didnot take care of it. From my experience, lack of maintenance is the main problem Rotaries fail. Also the fact that a rotary wont make it pass 1 yr without an oil change. but my friends honda civic can. :/
as far as warranty claims are going to happen no matter what. People simply don't have the time to check their oil levels and monitor and maintenance things you are supposed to do on any other car. people dont even rev there engines high like they are supposed to with these rotaries. I guess the rotary just isn't for the norm which is people who don't maintenance their cars and if they do, an oil change is the most they do until something bad happens.
as far as warranty claims are going to happen no matter what. People simply don't have the time to check their oil levels and monitor and maintenance things you are supposed to do on any other car. people dont even rev there engines high like they are supposed to with these rotaries. I guess the rotary just isn't for the norm which is people who don't maintenance their cars and if they do, an oil change is the most they do until something bad happens.
05-22-2011 | 06:41 AM
#36
My hopes for the next rotary are very simple; but it seems that I am likely to be disappointed (and rile some folks up here). I want a 2+2 big enough in the back to use a baby seat in the back. If it can't do that one task alone, then I can't justify it any more than I can an MX-5.
I would love for it to lose about 200lbs versus the RX-8 and it should lose most of that from using the aluminum side housings versus the cast iron ones we have. I would also love for the rear springs to be more resilient to sagging. Just about every S1 on OEM springs I've seen (mine included) are so low in the rear that the cat is getting dragged over the tops of speed bumps, and I suspect the high nose, low tail combination is inhibiting cooling by building a high pressure area under the rear of the engine bay, so I would love to see that prevented altogether.
I'd love to see if there is a weight savings available using Aeron-style mesh seating like some of the RX-8 precursors demonstrated.
Let's face it, there really isn't that much wrong with the RX-8. If it could pass emissions in Europe, it would probably not be facing discontinuance.
So here's my hope/wish list:
200-300lbs lighter (more fun and less thirsty)
passes emissions in all major markets
2+2 (at least as an option like the FC)
no suspension sagging
I would love for it to lose about 200lbs versus the RX-8 and it should lose most of that from using the aluminum side housings versus the cast iron ones we have. I would also love for the rear springs to be more resilient to sagging. Just about every S1 on OEM springs I've seen (mine included) are so low in the rear that the cat is getting dragged over the tops of speed bumps, and I suspect the high nose, low tail combination is inhibiting cooling by building a high pressure area under the rear of the engine bay, so I would love to see that prevented altogether.
I'd love to see if there is a weight savings available using Aeron-style mesh seating like some of the RX-8 precursors demonstrated.
Let's face it, there really isn't that much wrong with the RX-8. If it could pass emissions in Europe, it would probably not be facing discontinuance.
So here's my hope/wish list:
200-300lbs lighter (more fun and less thirsty)
passes emissions in all major markets
2+2 (at least as an option like the FC)
no suspension sagging
05-22-2011 | 09:45 AM
#37
hybrid---oh hell i hope not.
The rotary engine still has to prove itself to the public--hasnt done it yet and its too bad the S2 model changes came so late in the game.
Hybrid set ups also have not proved themselves to the public either--much less to the mid salaried performance car buyer.
What would be the expectations? It would be a much more complicated car for the average track day/street driving /bench racing enthusiast. It would not be able to perform to the level of performance cars now out THIS year unless they get it to the 9lbs per hp ratio, it would still be a high maintenance engine with less assessability and more expensive to work on, be impossible to mod and how the hell would they make it lighter by adding ANOTHER drive train system?
FAIL.
I would not buy it --hands down.
I am starting to have a gut feeling that the rotary engine may not make it in the way we are hoping.
The DI would be great, but i am understanding that is tricky with such the "power" stroke we have.
If the laser sparkplug could be perfected then THAT would have an impact with DI. I shutter at the thought
my 2 cents before inflation
The rotary engine still has to prove itself to the public--hasnt done it yet and its too bad the S2 model changes came so late in the game.
Hybrid set ups also have not proved themselves to the public either--much less to the mid salaried performance car buyer.
What would be the expectations? It would be a much more complicated car for the average track day/street driving /bench racing enthusiast. It would not be able to perform to the level of performance cars now out THIS year unless they get it to the 9lbs per hp ratio, it would still be a high maintenance engine with less assessability and more expensive to work on, be impossible to mod and how the hell would they make it lighter by adding ANOTHER drive train system?
FAIL.
I would not buy it --hands down.
I am starting to have a gut feeling that the rotary engine may not make it in the way we are hoping.
The DI would be great, but i am understanding that is tricky with such the "power" stroke we have.
If the laser sparkplug could be perfected then THAT would have an impact with DI. I shutter at the thought
my 2 cents before inflation
05-22-2011 | 01:34 PM
#38
Rotary Power!
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Marysville, Ca
hybrid---oh hell i hope not.
The rotary engine still has to prove itself to the public--hasnt done it yet and its too bad the S2 model changes came so late in the game.
Hybrid set ups also have not proved themselves to the public either--much less to the mid salaried performance car buyer.
What would be the expectations? It would be a much more complicated car for the average track day/street driving /bench racing enthusiast. It would not be able to perform to the level of performance cars now out THIS year unless they get it to the 9lbs per hp ratio, it would still be a high maintenance engine with less assessability and more expensive to work on, be impossible to mod and how the hell would they make it lighter by adding ANOTHER drive train system?
FAIL.
I would not buy it --hands down.
I am starting to have a gut feeling that the rotary engine may not make it in the way we are hoping.
The DI would be great, but i am understanding that is tricky with such the "power" stroke we have.
If the laser sparkplug could be perfected then THAT would have an impact with DI. I shutter at the thought
my 2 cents before inflation
The rotary engine still has to prove itself to the public--hasnt done it yet and its too bad the S2 model changes came so late in the game.
Hybrid set ups also have not proved themselves to the public either--much less to the mid salaried performance car buyer.
What would be the expectations? It would be a much more complicated car for the average track day/street driving /bench racing enthusiast. It would not be able to perform to the level of performance cars now out THIS year unless they get it to the 9lbs per hp ratio, it would still be a high maintenance engine with less assessability and more expensive to work on, be impossible to mod and how the hell would they make it lighter by adding ANOTHER drive train system?
FAIL.
I would not buy it --hands down.
I am starting to have a gut feeling that the rotary engine may not make it in the way we are hoping.
The DI would be great, but i am understanding that is tricky with such the "power" stroke we have.
If the laser sparkplug could be perfected then THAT would have an impact with DI. I shutter at the thought
my 2 cents before inflation
05-22-2011 | 02:35 PM
#39
Registered
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,319
Likes: 58
From: NYC
I've heard this every time Mazda discontinues a rotary engine car, starting 40 years ago. And, just to set the record straight, the RX-8 has been a huge winner for most auto journalists and people who love sports cars, and has gotten rave reviews from day one. It's not a mass-appeal car and, blessfully, it never will be.
05-22-2011 | 03:11 PM
#40
+1.
I think that everyone that insists each time that "this time they better get it right or the engine is dead" aren't real rotorheads. Maybe car enthusiasts, but if such issues really are enough to make them swear off the engine, then well...maybe they shouldn't have one in the first place.
It's like having a girlfriend, as we have often likened the rotary engine to anyway. You like it for what it has, not for what it doesn't have.
"She better get it right this time or I'm done with women!"
No, not really. If that was enough to make you change sexual preference, you shouldn't have been with a chick to begin with.
Same thing imo.
I think that everyone that insists each time that "this time they better get it right or the engine is dead" aren't real rotorheads. Maybe car enthusiasts, but if such issues really are enough to make them swear off the engine, then well...maybe they shouldn't have one in the first place.
It's like having a girlfriend, as we have often likened the rotary engine to anyway. You like it for what it has, not for what it doesn't have.
"She better get it right this time or I'm done with women!"
No, not really. If that was enough to make you change sexual preference, you shouldn't have been with a chick to begin with.
Same thing imo.
05-22-2011 | 05:04 PM
#41
I've heard this every time Mazda discontinues a rotary engine car, starting 40 years ago. And, just to set the record straight, the RX-8 has been a huge winner for most auto journalists and people who love sports cars, and has gotten rave reviews from day one. It's not a mass-appeal car and, blessfully, it never will be.
+1.
I think that everyone that insists each time that "this time they better get it right or the engine is dead" aren't real rotorheads. Maybe car enthusiasts, but if such issues really are enough to make them swear off the engine, then well...maybe they shouldn't have one in the first place.
It's like having a girlfriend, as we have often likened the rotary engine to anyway. You like it for what it has, not for what it doesn't have.
"She better get it right this time or I'm done with women!"
No, not really. If that was enough to make you change sexual preference, you shouldn't have been with a chick to begin with.
Same thing imo.
I think that everyone that insists each time that "this time they better get it right or the engine is dead" aren't real rotorheads. Maybe car enthusiasts, but if such issues really are enough to make them swear off the engine, then well...maybe they shouldn't have one in the first place.
It's like having a girlfriend, as we have often likened the rotary engine to anyway. You like it for what it has, not for what it doesn't have.
"She better get it right this time or I'm done with women!"
No, not really. If that was enough to make you change sexual preference, you shouldn't have been with a chick to begin with.
Same thing imo.
05-22-2011 | 05:10 PM
#42
As an addendum, I would not mind a CVT with a rotary based on Eric Meyer's statements that his team and his competitors all use a numerically higher (shorter) final drive ratio to keep the engine in the meat of it's power. If this agreement means they are licensing Toyota's CVT design to let them effectively do that, then I am 100% cool with that.
05-22-2011 | 11:54 PM
#43
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
From: Massapequa, NY
Well, the truth of the matter is that despite Mazda historically being underpowered, they're going to have to come with the thunder to draw buyers. 300hp won't cut the mustard. The RX-# can't be in a situation where a V6 Mustang is faster in a straight line, or its a fail. If Porsche can do a hybrid supercar, why not Mazda? If they have the means to do it correctly where it doesn't rob the experience and fun. then why the hell not? Do you think a hybrid rotary with >340hp, > 280tq, >30mpg, and <2800lbs with equal or better handling than the R3 wouldn't be a game changer? I think that's exactly what Mazda needs in the next rotary, because that's exactly what the RX-8 wasn't. The Rotary has to set a new precedent within its segment for people to latch on, and buy into it. I view hybrid as a means of doing that, even though its sexy for purists to devalue it. When evaluating what people who already bought an RX-8 want in new car highlighting it's weak points, you also have to consider we aren't the target for the new model. Mazda has to shatter expectations to succeed with this car.
05-23-2011 | 09:00 AM
#44
2008 40th Anniversary
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
From: Virginia, USA
Porsche has been building sports cars with lower hp numbers than the competition for years and they stay competitive. It is all about matching the engine to what the car can do, mazda has always been very good at that. The Miata has been the "slowest" sports car on the planet for 20 years now and is still one of the best pure driving cars available.
Mazda will never be a volume manufacturer. I hope they never are because in order to be one, they have to build Corollas and Civics. I want them to keep building cars that are interesting and have "soul". If the next RX car has a rotary engine as its main propulsion, I'll probably buy it if it looks anything like the Shinari concept and performs as good or better than my RX-8.
Mazda will never be a volume manufacturer. I hope they never are because in order to be one, they have to build Corollas and Civics. I want them to keep building cars that are interesting and have "soul". If the next RX car has a rotary engine as its main propulsion, I'll probably buy it if it looks anything like the Shinari concept and performs as good or better than my RX-8.
05-23-2011 | 09:35 AM
#45
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 21,958
Likes: 115
From: portland oregon
Well, the truth of the matter is that despite Mazda historically being underpowered, they're going to have to come with the thunder to draw buyers. 300hp won't cut the mustard. The RX-# can't be in a situation where a V6 Mustang is faster in a straight line, or its a fail.
Mazda cant sell a supercar
Last edited by zoom44; 05-23-2011 at 02:20 PM.
05-23-2011 | 09:45 AM
#46
I'm betting that the Hayabusa has less than 300hp, and I'm betting that it can beat the V6 mustang in a straight line.
Yup, 151-162hp, depending on who tested it. So half the power.
Blows the doors right off for 1 simple reason.
Weight.
And adding a series hybrid system to a car will add weight over what was already there, but Mazda is stating it's already a clearly smaller car, and that's on top of their already found 15-20% weight reductions in chassis and body design. I'm betting the next RX will weight in the 2300-2400lb range, even hybrid. take the current Renesis, without any power improvements that you know are coming, and it's in the 100hp per ton range. The V6 mustang is what...85-90 hp per ton?
Yup, 151-162hp, depending on who tested it. So half the power.
Blows the doors right off for 1 simple reason.
Weight.
And adding a series hybrid system to a car will add weight over what was already there, but Mazda is stating it's already a clearly smaller car, and that's on top of their already found 15-20% weight reductions in chassis and body design. I'm betting the next RX will weight in the 2300-2400lb range, even hybrid. take the current Renesis, without any power improvements that you know are coming, and it's in the 100hp per ton range. The V6 mustang is what...85-90 hp per ton?
05-23-2011 | 09:48 AM
#47
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Porsche has been building sports cars with lower hp numbers than the competition for years and they stay competitive. It is all about matching the engine to what the car can do, mazda has always been very good at that. The Miata has been the "slowest" sports car on the planet for 20 years now and is still one of the best pure driving cars available.
Mazda will never be a volume manufacturer. I hope they never are because in order to be one, they have to build Corollas and Civics. I want them to keep building cars that are interesting and have "soul". If the next RX car has a rotary engine as its main propulsion, I'll probably buy it if it looks anything like the Shinari concept and performs as good or better than my RX-8.
Mazda will never be a volume manufacturer. I hope they never are because in order to be one, they have to build Corollas and Civics. I want them to keep building cars that are interesting and have "soul". If the next RX car has a rotary engine as its main propulsion, I'll probably buy it if it looks anything like the Shinari concept and performs as good or better than my RX-8.
Take a look at C-Stock, for example. The RX-8, which has been virtually unchanged since its release, is still highly competitive even against the new 370Z with 100 more horsepower. Sure the 370Z may outrun the RX-8 at the Nurburgring or VIR, but I don't race there. I commute 60 miles to/from work every day and would never use "0-60 mph in 4.whatever seconds", but constantly use all the benefits of the RX-8 chassis.
If I may add, I also purchased my RX-8 due to the usable backseat (with its own set of doors). As said earlier, if the new RX didn't have this feature I would just end up going back to the MX-5. If the new RX is merely the 16X (SKY-R or whatever it gets called) on an updated RX-8 chassis with new bodywork I would be ecstatic.
05-23-2011 | 10:05 AM
#48
I'm betting that the Hayabusa has less than 300hp, and I'm betting that it can beat the V6 mustang in a straight line.
Yup, 151-162hp, depending on who tested it. So half the power.
Blows the doors right off for 1 simple reason.
Weight.
And adding a series hybrid system to a car will add weight over what was already there, but Mazda is stating it's already a clearly smaller car, and that's on top of their already found 15-20% weight reductions in chassis and body design. I'm betting the next RX will weight in the 2300-2400lb range, even hybrid. take the current Renesis, without any power improvements that you know are coming, and it's in the 100hp per ton range. The V6 mustang is what...85-90 hp per ton?
Yup, 151-162hp, depending on who tested it. So half the power.
Blows the doors right off for 1 simple reason.
Weight.
And adding a series hybrid system to a car will add weight over what was already there, but Mazda is stating it's already a clearly smaller car, and that's on top of their already found 15-20% weight reductions in chassis and body design. I'm betting the next RX will weight in the 2300-2400lb range, even hybrid. take the current Renesis, without any power improvements that you know are coming, and it's in the 100hp per ton range. The V6 mustang is what...85-90 hp per ton?
RX-7,RX-8,RX-9? Hybrid, no hybrid? 2 door, 4 door? Until they green light a rotary car and announce it publicly, I have little opinion on this topic.
Paul.
05-23-2011 | 10:15 AM
#49
Most of the massive weight addition to current hybrid cars come from the batteries. A series hybrid doesn't need a single one.
http://serieshybrid.com/FreedomFormu...Comparison.pdf
Series Hybrid - In contrast to the parallel hybrid ALL drive power in a Series Hybrid is delivered to the wheels by the electric motor(s). The ICE is only used to drive a generator to produce electricity. The Series Hybrid is “stronger” than a Strong Hybrid since the electric motor has to be powerful enough to provide the desired performance with no assistance from an ICE powerplant. This mode of operation drastically reduces the size of the ICE since it only provides the average power required by the car not the peak power. The power required from the ICE is only 25 to 50 horsepower and the need for a transmission can be eliminated with good electric motor design. When the ICE runs it does so at its most efficient operating point (for instance at 6000 RPM while creating 40 HP) since any excess power above what is immediately needed by the drive motor, is collected in the batteries. Because our means of controlling engine speed in gasoline engines is to choke off the air supply and increase resistance to airflow they are terribly inefficient when operated at low speed and low power, and the larger the engine, the more inefficient it is. Typical efficiencies for city driving are as low as 15%, while at highway speeds it could be as high as 25%. But an electric motor runs with nearly the same efficiency (usually over 90%) at all operating speeds, and a 250 HP electric motor is just as efficient as a 60 HP electric motor.
The benefits of the Series Hybrid configuration are:
a. Efficiency improvements of up to 300%, resulting in 75 mpg instead of 25 mpg (yes that’s what 300% means) for the same size automobile!!
b. A “non-pluggable” Series Hybrid is the lightest configuration discussed here, and should be the cheapest to build. Dropping the large ICE and transmission/transaxle reduces vehicle weight by about 750 lbs, while the replacement items total about 400 lbs (small ICE/generator = 100lbs, electric motor = 220 lbs, and a battery pack similar to current strong hybrids = 90 lbs).
c. Maintenance benefits due to only one moving part.
The benefits of the Series Hybrid configuration are:
a. Efficiency improvements of up to 300%, resulting in 75 mpg instead of 25 mpg (yes that’s what 300% means) for the same size automobile!!
b. A “non-pluggable” Series Hybrid is the lightest configuration discussed here, and should be the cheapest to build. Dropping the large ICE and transmission/transaxle reduces vehicle weight by about 750 lbs, while the replacement items total about 400 lbs (small ICE/generator = 100lbs, electric motor = 220 lbs, and a battery pack similar to current strong hybrids = 90 lbs).
c. Maintenance benefits due to only one moving part.
Per Toyota.com, the Prius weighs 3,042lbs. Drop 750lbs off that....
Granted, we are talking that we would still have a transmission, so add back ~150lbs?
I think it's ENTIRELY doable.
Last edited by RIWWP; 05-23-2011 at 10:18 AM.
