RogueTadhg

Okay, so I'm a new driver for the manual transmission club.

Prior to, and still today - I'm haunted by Heal-Toe, Double Clutching and all those wonderful terms.

Let's also take out the fast and furious reference of Double-Clutching, please.


Double Clutching------------------------
I was hoping that those manual shifters out there could either give me some tips, pointers and otherwise "Caution".

To downshift:
Brake.
Press Clutch.
Neutral
Gas
Lower Gear.
Release Clutch.
Gas.

Is this a good way to downshift. Is this "double-clutching"? I was under the idea that double clutching is:

Brake.
Press clutch.
Neutral
Release Clutch.
Gas.
Clutch in
Lower Gear
Clutch out.

Do I harm my car more by doing what I have been doing while downshifting? Do I hurt components while gasing in neutral without the clutch engaged [pedal released]

Heal Toe:-------------------------------
I've been practicing heal and toe. But really I find it difficult to not do a brake check [Stomp on the brakes] to get to the gas pedal. Is it possible to either Raise the gas pedal forwards, or lower the brake pedal?

2tone

iTrader: (3)

is this like the 3rd post today about how to shift??? come on guys

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

Pretty sure the 2nd one is proper double clutching.

RogueTadhg

I haven't seen the other posts. Sorry 2tone.

Aznxkaiser

What have you been doing this whole time? Granny shifting and not double clutching like you should? Geez...some people..

bse50

The second option is the real double clutching.
However given our synchronized transmission while heel and toeing you can just depress the clutch once as they'll do the trick for you

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

^lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbHuJOBsgSE

The Reverend

iTrader: (1)

i'm sorry but every time i read "heal toe" i laugh on the inside

i suppose it is supposed to be therapeutic for your feet

just joshin

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

FFS ........ just learn how to drive a manual normally before you try and go all fast and furious .

Heel toe down shifting is really only a racetrack thing and is hard to practice on the street because you don't really want to be braking that hard anyway .

04Green

iTrader: (1)

First one. The gas part is rolling your foot to the right to tap the accelerator with the outside of your foot for the throttle "blip" with your foot still on the brake.

Heel and Toe is a reference that goes way back (I think it was in the Skip Barber book) to when the pedals were positioned differently and you could actually use your heel and toe.

What works for me is brake, clutch in, shift normally, blip (once you are sure you have slowed enough to not mechanical over-rev), clutch out. Kind of nice when it works.

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

^^ First one would almost resemble heel toe though right? Second is more of a double clutch technique i thought.

alfy28

My down shifting tech, any gear that i am, i down shift to first. Example, if i am in 6th gear, i down shift to 1st, if i am in 5th gear , i down shift to 1st. THe car might act like it wants to pop a reverse wheelie, but dont panic, its means taht everything that has to deal with your car is working okay,

Rotary-RX8

iTrader: (1)

According to one youtube video. You can downshift like this:

clutch in
shift to lower gear WHILE giving it gas to rev match
Let go of clutch

Ive been doing it this way for a long time. From what i know, double clutching is useful on modern cars.

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

is? i thought is not due to synchros unlike back in the day

SayNoToPistons

iTrader: (8)

Holy ****, whats all that?
I have only really driven manual for two years, but I practice techniques every time I drive and try to better myself. I consider myself to be a decent shifter because I can produce perfect rev matches and heal toes now. I double clutch downshift as a habit and have began to start double clutch heal toeing. Double clutching allows no usage of the synchros and more practice for rev matching. If you are curious as to what double clutch heal toe is, here is it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j-3xIZK-Bk

Clearly it seems like you are not up to that level yet. Whatever you listed confuses me to even read it. If you want to learn, just get the basic concept off youtube tutorials and practice practice practice.

monchie

This is class learning. Do it physically on an empty parking space? That's how i learned it. If you got it, then go on a live street with cars on it. Good luck.

REDRX3RX8

Forget the clutch! It's just for getting the car moving.

So, after you get moving, ease off the gas, shift to neutral, blip the gas, hold against lower gear.

Be amazed as it pops right in.

If you're coordinated you can shift around like this all day; even go to higher gear, but then, you have to get off gas in neutral and wait a moment.

Vehicles with close ratio trans such as diesel trucks do this a lot.

Oh, also get the movie "Bullitt"; listen to his timing getting the gears in his Mustang, then, look up Le Mans video, and notice they don't worry so much about the fast shift, they try to make the trans last 24hrs.

PeteInLongBeach

Do you understand how synchronizers are designed, how they work, and realize what this kind of driving does to them? There are enough reports of 2nd gear synchro failures already - this is just abusive.

Hopefully, nobody takes this suggestion seriously...

REDRX3RX8

Yeah, I got a quick synchro lesson when I discovered my new 73 RX3 wouldn't shift into 2nd without a grind.

What I described is a real technique that can be done on lots of trans, especially if they are close ratio without high revs.

Not only can you shift around without pushing in the clutch, you can drive it without EVER DISENGAGING!

I got tired of repeat clutch jobs once, so I drove my 2 ton GMC truck for 2 years by starting in 1st gear, then, slipping through them like I described.

I'm half crippled, and the clutch was always engaged; I just had to coast up to stops and restart.

As you can imagine, you have to have a good starter, and be away from traffic jams.

Funny thing, after 2 years I heard a big bang, and assumed the clutch plate threw a chunk off.

I sent it to the shop for clutch job, and it was actually a weakened fan blade flew off.

Hell, I fixed it too early!

Since this is an 8 forum, if my clutch wouldn't disengage, I'd definitely get home without a tow, and it wouldn't damage the tranny if I drove it easy.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I also learned this method in a crash course. When a corolla of mine fried it's transmission (from no oil, dealer re-installed the seals wrong), I had to limp it about 11 miles and 15+ traffic lights with a permenently engaged clutch, only 1st and 3rd gear worked (well, maybe 5th did, never tried it)

Yes, it's entirely possible to shift without ever disengaging the clutch. I wouldn't recommend it, let the syncro's do their job, though rev match when you shift, in either direction, accelerating or decelerating, to put the least amount of strain on them. That transmission failure in that corolla is the only transmission problem I have had at all across 8 cars in the past 12 years.


OP, one thing to keep in mind that it isn't always necessary to brake when downshifting. I downshift to accelerate all the time. Braking would be counter productive

RogueTadhg

Isn't downshifting harder on the transmission when you're not braking.. for example at 7k... ~9K jump the next gear down.

Thanks to the replies I've been more apt to try to Double-Clutch down. It felt like I was learning how to drive again.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I have no idea what your example is supposed to be relating.

I was stating that matching the RPM of the engine to where it will be at when you engage the clutch in the new gear, BEFORE you engage that clutch, is reducing the strain on the engine, transmission, and the rest of the drivetrain. This is true regardless of if the brake master cylinder is applying pressure to brake caliper pistons or not, and regardless of if you intend to reduce speed or increase speed after a shift, and regardless of if you are shifting to a higher gear or a lower gear.

I rev match my upshifts when cruising, upshifts when accelerating, upshifts when on the brakes, downshifts when cruising, downshifts when accelerating, and downshifts when I am braking.

NOT rev matching when you shift is applying strain to something, somewhere. Be it the transmission gears, clutch, flywheel, e-shaft, driveshaft, diff, axles, wheel hub, or tires. The farther off from being matched on revs you are, the more strain there is. If you are off at all, then the lower the gears are that are involved, the greater the strain.

I'm not saying that you are doing this, I was just stating something, and apparently not clear enough, so I am restating it.

warbick

Seems relevant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_clutch

Midway down:

Conversely, in order to shift down, engine RPM must be increased while the gearbox is in neutral and the clutch is either engaged or disengaged. This requires the driver to shift into neutral, apply throttle to bring the RPM up to a suitable speed, and finally shift into gear. This operation can be very difficult to master, as it requires the driver to gauge the speed of the vehicle and throttle accurately. Double clutching occurs if the clutch pedal is released while matching engine speeds in neutral and again engaged prior to shifting into the next gear.

I know nothing about double clutching or anything like that, so this helped me.

RogueTadhg

I think I caught what you're throwing.

To be sure, I'll just need to go to a SCCA event when I get the time and save the trouble of destroying something

jasonrxeight

first one is rev matching, second one is double clutching.