zoom44

Mid- 2012 is vague but better than nothing

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

It's just not worth the hassle of a several hour charge every 160 miles for $50,000 USD. I'd rather buy a Prius, or wait for the Mazda sky engines. I'm sure that it would take YEARS to recoup the purchase cost in gas, and by then, the car may be dead. Look at the top gear tests... they fried 2 Tesla roadsters....

mscamp02

iTrader: (3)

^I was just at a tesla dealership in seattle about a month ago and it should have a 300 mile range according to the flier, not 130. Look up at the OP. And this is a complete electric where a 4 dollar charge will net you 300 miles, and this is a charge coming off of your house, I think it was a 240 will get a complete charge in about 4 hours or so.

I was picking the dealerships brain because it was the first time ever seeing one up close (grant it that was the roadster which still got 245 miles to a single charge and was capable at 0-60 in 3.7 sec)

Even if the motor is fried you have a 3/36k warranty with the option of another 3/36k for 5k more, seems worth it to me

mscamp02

iTrader: (3)

not to mention it will have a hell of a lot better performance than a prius.

xexok

If what mscamp02 said is true and you can get 300 miles to a 4 hour charge it would cost you $480 to go 36k miles, or $960 if it only got 150 miles to a 4 hour charge. If you went 36k miles in a normal car with a 16 gallon tank getting say 25mpg it would cost you around $5000, if my math was correct. I think a car in this example getting 25 mpg is generous too.

So yea it would take quite a bit of time to recoup what you spent, but that's not really the idea of buying this car I don't think.

mscamp02

iTrader: (3)

^+1

you do not buy this car to "save money" if you are willing to spend that kind of money you are wanting a luxary electric that is very eco friendly.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

300 miles on 4 hour charge if you drive it like a grandma. but we all know no one has that car would drive like a grandma. so that 300 mile point is moot.

no one is going to buy that car to save gas. more like trying to show off.

the car is still new so who knows what will happen a year or 2 down the road, Telsa is STILL not making any money and the warranty cost might kill them later (if the electric motor or whatever keeps on dying)

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

You really don't have a clue about the people who buy these. At least, some of them anyway.

But I agree it's a risky proposition.

YaXMaNGTO

Can't have a Tesla Model S thread without a pic...

STL05

Looks like an aston from the front

xexok

I don't think anyone is going to buy this car to save on gas. Its just not feasible for every day living. The only reason to buy this car is to have a fun little toy to go around in a few times a week and its just a bonus that you don't have to pay for the gas.

Maybe around town 150-300 miles wouldn't be bad, but no road trips for sure. You also better plan your driving very well, if you run out of spark on the road your pretty much screwed.

mscamp02

iTrader: (3)

look at other luxary cars within its class

bmw 5 series 45k-62k
Cadillac CTS 35-62k (maybe a little under classed)
MB C-class 40-60k
MB E-class 48k-87k
Lincoln MKS 41k-50k
Lincoln LS 460 66k-74k

And thats just to name a few of the mid level luxury cars, all within the same price range for a new vehicle, and if you start looking at high end luxury cars you are looking at upwards of 100k and beyond.

This Tesla is designed as a luxury with the heart of a roadster in it, being able to still perform

This is considered a higher end luxary car and should be set next to its competitors, I really think you need to reevaluate who would buy this car, and as far as road trips, no it is not designed for that but look at the course of a year and see how often a typical person will drive past 300 miles in a day. Better yet that is the assumption that this will be the only car owned by that person, chances are highly against that looking at the class its in.

As far as running out of spark on the road, yes you would be screwed but there are plenty of instances where a gas engine would be screwed (middle of nowhere with no gas, same situation)

mscamp02

iTrader: (3)

just FYI from Tesla Motors

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

just keep one of these in the trunk for backup

http://wisesales.com/honda_EU2000iA30.html

Chad D.

iTrader: (19)

the front or rear trunk.
this car is what GM dreamed of with their skateboard idea, and well, gm is too lame for that so they built a volt.
This car is really well thought out. For a family car to run errands and stuff it is A+.
I spoke with the Tesla dude and eyed out the "chasis" for a while.
I wouldn't buy one though, I love the roadster.

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

mscamp02,

http://www.hybridcars.com/vehicle/lexus-ct200h.html
Lexus CT 200h
Base MSRP: 29k customizable to 40k
Mileage: 43/40

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/31002.shtml
Annual Fuel Cost: $1207
Annual Fuel Costs are based on 45% highway driving, 55% city driving, and 15000 annual miles.
Assumed Fuel Prices:
Gas: $3.38/gallon
Electricity: $0.11/kilowatt hour

Now, assuming we compare your 300 mile tesla...
Base MSRP: 70k

This is comparing the roadster, but it's the same core technology..
So if we're talking a LIFETIME savings of $26k (over a sports car, it would be less for an efficient car)... lets be gracious and say $30k. It would take more than 21 years to recoup this value in gas to compare to the purchase cost of the fully loaded Lexus (That's more than 10 years to break even). The Luxus is also 80% recyclable.

I've had my RX8 for 4 years as a daily driver and I'm itching for a new car. I couldn't imagine having to wait 10 years to buy a new car, especially if I could afford a $70,000 vehicle...

Lets do some math on coal vs gasoline since your argument is based around the environment...
bituminous coal: 4,931 lbs of CO2/ton or 2.47 lbs of CO2 per lb
gasoline: 19.4 lb of CO2 / gallon
Electricity / lb of coal: 966 lbs = 876 kw or 1.1 lb = 1 kw

Tesla model S Miles/kw: 60mi/29kw
Lexus: 40mi/1 gal

now the fun part...
Tesla:
29 kw * (1.1 lbs of coal/kwh) = 31.9 lbs of coal
31.9 lbs / 60 miles = .53 lbs of coal per mile
.53 * 2.47 = 1.31 lbs of CO2 per mile

Lexus:
1 gal / 40 mi = 0.025 gallons of gas per mile
0.025 * 19.4 = 0.458 lbs of CO2 per mile

Tesla: 1.31 lbs CO2 / mi
Lexus: 0.458 lbs CO2 / mi

Lexus is more than 2 times better for the environment than the Tesla, and it's 80% recyclable.

Even if you factor in sub-bituminous coal at 1.858 lbs of CO2 per lb..
Tesla: 0.98 lbs CO2 / mi
Still over 2 times more CO2.

Lets look at another electric car the new Nissan Leaf...
It's 0.924 lbs of CO2 on bituminous coal. Still not even close.

I would rather feed the homeless with the extra $10,000 than waste it on a useless electric car with a 10 year investment, and worse CO2 emissions based on fuel source.

Sorry man, but electric cars just aren't ready yet, they will keep squeezing more and more mileage out of small engines, and the US isn't ready to commit to switching to nuclear power. Then you would have a point, and you couldn't argue with environmental impact. I'm willing to be that it wont happen in my lifetime.

Chad D.

iTrader: (19)

that is pretty skewed.
I have a customer in the county that owns a roadster and has solar panels set over his garage.
That is it.
and using coal as a basis is set pretty regionally. In Quebec it's hydopower. In Ontario is Nuclear/hydo/windfarms/naturalgas.

Personally I think it is brilliant.
I dream of owning a Roadster 2.5

mscamp02

iTrader: (3)

you are assuming that all users of the tesla are running off of a coal power system (grant it you do not really have control over this, unless you install your own solar panels, which is not terribly expensive.

and the lexus hybrid you mentioned is not up to scale with the tesla performance wise therefore not an accurate comparison. I would love to see a 40+ mpg car that gets the same performance as the tesla, hense the reason I threw up the luxury cars that I did instead of just the hybrids that are out there. That would also create a much different figure than what you are comparing as far as years for return.

But once again I think you are skewed on the type of person that would purchase this kind of vehicle. It is designed for people who want to totally cut out emissions and I believe there is a large portion of them that would easily install a set of solar panels, if they do not already have them.

You are also assuming that this vehicle is only to be sold within the US vs say Canada where alternate forms of power are more dominant, as I am sure is the case with a lot of other countries as well.

^this is just funny , besides the production cost in terms of waste, pollution, energy (dont care if it recycled material or not as recycling material has very high energy costs, which if you want to go in and look at your coal emissions I am sure is huge, for a new vehicle is astronomical so would it not be environmentally savvy to keep a car for 10+ years.

are electric cars ready to take over, no, will they be someday, maybe maybe not depending on alternate fuel sources and the direction the market goes in the future.



You make a lot of assumptions that can easily be countered with other references/assumptions/situations.



Not trying to stir up a huge debate here because all this is is just a bunch of opinions on the matter as I am sure no where here is an expert in the above stated.

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=110997398

In the US, at least 45% of all power generated is Coal burned. World wide, it accounts for about 30%. A large majority of US power is coal derived, and Natural Gas makes up about 29%.

Even assuming that, lets take out 26% assuming that you're mixing your power sources with non polluting resources to get a national average, and including the natural gas CO2 emissions.

So... back to our previous math.
Natural Gas: 0.43 lbs CO2 / kw
Tesla model S Miles/kw: 60mi/29kw
kw of clean energy (26%): 7.54kw
kw from coal (45%): 13.05kw
kw from gas (29%): 8.41kw

13.05 * 1.1 = 14.36 lb coal
14.36 / 60 = 0.24 lbs / mile
0.24 * 2.47 = 0.59 lbs of CO2 per mile

We're already above the Lexus, but lets add in natural gas now...
8.41 / 60 = 0.14
0.14 * 0.43 = 0.06 lbs of CO2 per mile

Tesla: 0.65 lbs CO2 / mi in the USA.

Globally assuming 50% natural gas production, 30% coal, and not including the 5% of oil burning plants.

coal: 0.39 lbs CO2 / mi
gas: 0.10 lbs CO2 / mi
Tesla: 0.49 lbs CO2 / mi

Tesla USA: 0.65 lbs CO2 / mi in the USA.
Tesla Global: 0.49 lbs CO2 / mi
Lexus: 0.458 lbs CO2 / mi

Lexus is still better, and with CO2 emissions that close, it comes down to total cost...
Fully loaded Lexus: 40k
Base model Tesla with 300 mile battery: 70k

If you demand electric, you're better off with the Nissan Leaf, but it wont be "luxury". It's sad that you have to look at power generation on a global scale to even get the Tesla close to the same CO2 emissions. Better to drive with gas now until coal is 10% or less of the global usage, problem is projections still show coal over 30% for the next 30+ years. It's not going away any time soon. It's too cheep.

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

mscamp02,
No opinions... That's based on math, and global emissions figures. It is what it is.
What luxury features do you get in the Tesla that you don't get in the loaded Lexus? I'm willing to bet that a majority of the cost is spent in low production numbers and the batteries, not in actual luxuries. I'm also willing to bet that the packaged options will be VERY similar.

Lets talk "Power". The new 370z Hybrid is advertised as 50% more fuel economy. That would put it at 39mpg

1/39 = 0.025 gallons per mile

370z h = 0.49 lbs of CO2 per mile.
Tesla Global: 0.49 lbs CO2 / mi
Tesla USA: 0.65 lbs CO2 / mi.

The Tessa's selling point is "clean energy", yet even on the global average, it can only match a hybrid V6 for emissions.

For the cost of the Tesla, I could buy a 370z h for performance, and have a cheep *** Nissan leaf for daily driving and rape the Tesla in being "green".

When I say that the Lexus is 80% recyclable, I don't mean it's made with recycled products. 80% of the car can be reused to make new products once it reaches it's end of life. That's less landfill waste.

If the global countries of the world were serious about going green, then why is coal usage estimated to go up over the next 50 years? Why isn't the USA building 50+ nuclear plants across the country to force out coal usage? Do you honestly think China will move away from really cheap coal? lol... going green is almost laughable cause it's all about money. Do your part, sure, but they're going to burn coal regardless, and high efficiency gasoline engines are more efficient than coal.

Nuclear and solar are the way to go. Solar is safer, but a lot less efficient.

zoom44

hybrid 370z is a hypothtical car. please use real cars.

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

We'll keep it simple then since most coming "hybrid sports cars" are hypothetical...
Anything 39MPG or better tie or beat the Tesla in emissions based on global electricity production from coal and natural gas (not including oil burning power plants which would actually make the Tesla a little lower).

Chad D.

iTrader: (19)

That's the USA.
"Canada will phase out older coal-fired power plants to cut the country's greenhouse gas emissions, Environment Minister Jim Prentice said on Wednesday, as it moves to make natural-gas-fired plants the new clean-power standard.
The new standards, expected to be firmed up by early 2011, will force electricity producers to phase out older, high-emitting coal-fired plants and require newer more efficient natural-gas fired plants.
Canada has 51 coal-fired units producing 19 percent of the country's electricity and 13 percent of its greenhouse gas emissions. However, 33 of those plants will reach the end of their economic lives by 2025." reuters nov. 2010
3 have closed prior to the report.
In 2008, the Canadian Wind Energy Association (CanWEA), a non-profit trade association, outlined a future strategy for wind energy that would reach a capacity of 55,000 MW by 2025, fulfilling 20% of the country’s energy needs.
Canada is the world's second largest producer of hydroelectricity in the world (after China), and one of few countries to generate the majority of its electricity from hydroelectricity (59% in 2006).
Like I said numbers can be skewed.
Sorry buddy, if I had money and the need for another 4 door, this would be on my list. Plus it's American made new technology that everyone always says we are "so far behind on".
More Pics of the pretty electric 4dr.

mscamp02

iTrader: (3)

What I have been speaking of was the performance aspect of the car, which you will not get from a luxury car that gets 40mpg highway let alone city driving and by the photos Chad D. was so kindly to post you can see the interior/luxury aspect of the car, which does not seem to be lacking.

mscamp02

iTrader: (3)

oh and not to mention obviously most of us here are not that eco friendly nor are willing to make that transfer yet (making this assumption based on the fact we drive rx8's), I would still by this car if I had the cash for several reasons.

1. damn sex appeal.
2. performance of the vehicle
3. large 4 door luxury sedan (been looking for one to replace wifes car)
4. cheap to drive after initial purchase.