lycanthrope

why not coil-overs?

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

tein s-techs or h-techs are very popular as are the racing beat springs. Both are stiffer than stock but provide a comfortable ride and should put you around your desired drop. I've been more than happy with my s-techs.

Why coil-overs? Unless he's planning on doing a ton of track/autoX, or planning on dropping it on the ground, they're a waste of money. Good springs will be much more comfortable and perform just as well if not better than cheap coilovers. Koni Yellows and good springs would be even better. You'd have to spend a considerable amount of coin to perform/ride better than a koni+spring combo. If he's just going for a slight drop, springs are the way to go. Put the money saved into good tires or anti-roll bars if you want a little more performance for your money.

That being said, i'll be going to an adjustable setup at some point, but not until i have some HPDE's under my belt to figure out what i want vs. what i need.

Rotary-Kytten

Damn, now I need to get some springs to lower mine....gah!

lycanthrope

I loled at "coil overs are a waste of money

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

enlighten us.

$700 for cheap coilovers vs. $150-200 on just springs to accomplish a 1" drop that is for looks only. Seems like a waste of money to me.

~$700 for koni yellows and springs will out perform any of the $700-1500 coilovers on the market. You just won't have ride hight adjustment. This holds even more weight if you spend the $200 to get koni's specially valved the spring rate of your choosing.

To beat the performance of the above set up, you'd have to go with at least the Stance GR+'s, but you would suffer from a less than exceptional ride due to their linear springs.

You're really looking at KW V3's or above or about $1800 and up.

If you want to get really technical, we have coil-overs. They just aren't compression, rebound or height adjustable.

lycanthrope

well gosh when you put it that way...id say its a waste of time trying to "enlighten" you as to why coil-overs are most definitely not a waste of money. as the saying goes arguing on the Internet is like running in the special Olympics even if you win your still retarded so instead ill advise anyone who is thinking about getting springs or c/o's to come out to an autocross(i know shameless self plug)and see for yourself. at the next autocross we should have rx-8's on stock suspension, springs only and coilovers. i cant say for certain but I'm guessing most of these people will let you ride with them so you can see the difference yourself and see if the c/o's are worth the money. imho not a single spring on the market, that is not part of a c/o, has even close to what i would call a decent spring rate but my needs and all of your needs might not be the same and i dont doubt that a set of lowering springs some koni yellows wouldn't make a big difference. if all your looking for is a drop then yea c/o's are more than likely a bit over kill but if your looking for a real upgrade in performance than imo c/o's are the only way to go. i can spout out more numbers and prices to further prove my point but i think the best way for anyone to see if its worth the money is to see for themselves and like i said I've got the perfect place to see all kinds of different set ups back to back for free. so don't take my word for it see for yourself. and on a lighter note i was digging though a closet and found my old moon roof visor thing-y if anyone wants it it is free to a good home.

Mazdax3

Cost is the primary and I'm not going to track it. Maybe auto-x it once in awhile. Lowering it just to fill the wheel wells a little bit.

Rzoops

As fuz put it, Koni Yellows will outperform a LOT of other shocks and bolt-on coilover kits in the sub $1,500 price range. I actually went through a lot of effort to try to use Yellows and a threaded sleeve system (like Ground Controls) before giving up on doing it for a reasonable price. Which, at that price, Bilstein PSS9's or KW V3's become a more viable option.

There are essentially three main markets I see for the suspension customer:

1) People wanting to aesthetically lower the car with little performance improvement; only stiffening the springs enough to accommodate for the lower ride height and keep the fenders off the tires on bumps. Lowering springs alone are typically good enough for this person, but adding an adjustable shock like Koni Yellows is a wise choice, especially if the stock shocks are already fairly worn. This IS a suitable autocross setup as well, but you may run into issues running an aggressive wheel/tire setup.

2) The person wanting to slam their car and fine-tune the ride height for said slamming, but without much care for shock valving or adjustment control. For these guys, BC Racing, Stance, and the ~$1,000 coilover brands work fine for the street and occasional track day, and give them all of the adjustment they could ask for.

3) Finally, the guys who want to fine tune their setup for track days and autocrossing, plan to alter spring rates, and care to actually have the car corner balanced - there is no substitute for a high quality coilover setup, and there would be a lot of limitations to an off the shelf lowering spring solution.

I'm relatively new to the RX-8 market but I have a lot of autocrossing and track day experience, including some car prep/setup experience from various cars. The worst mistake is to buy something based on a perceived need rather than actually finding the limitation of a setup and knowing exactly how to upgrade from there. The factory suspension is quite good, but with that said, you're not doing any harm by going with "just" lowering springs.

lycanthrope

mazdax3 i had a feeling and was just asking really not trying to bash the idea of springs. and rzoops well put as always. care to tell us what you are running right now?

Rzoops

Sure thing. I'm on KW V3's right now, with off the shelf spring rates. It's great for all-around use, especially for street comfort, but it can afford to be a bit stiffer. I have to figure out an adapter for the rear top hats to be able to run a linear race spring, but once that happens, I'll play with the rates a bit and probably go up +100lbs front and rear. I want to avoid going with an overly stiff front sway bar like most autocross setups, as I just hate the driving feel of that. I'm doing a track day in about two weeks, so we'll see if that changes my mind any on the current rates.

Eventually I would like to test a custom setup with AST shocks that are valved a bit differently, but the V3's are a "tried and true" setup that I don't really have to worry about while also learning an entirely new platform. I actually had an extremely budget setup on my Integra (Yellows and straight race springs on GC sleeves) and sold it before I went down the path of putting $2,000 shocks on a car that booked for about $2,500 :p I'm excited to do a pretty legit RX-8 build though..

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for chiming in Rzoops and brilliantblack.

Rzoops, I'm interested in hearing what comes of linear springs for the KW's. Vorshlag actually has 5200 series double adjustable AST's for the 8. Might be something to look into. My buddy had AST's on his E36 M3. Did him well in the couple autox's he ran (came out so i'd have someone i knew running as well) and made the car a monster on the track. Fantastic shocks and hard to beat for the price.

Thanks for arguing lycanthrope. Not everyone is building an STX or SP car here. I think my point has been made, so i won't say another word on it.

Mazdax3. Sorry to turn this into what it has. Let me know if you need help when you get your springs. As long as you have a place to work on it, I'll gladly lend a hand. I'm not allowed to work on cars in my apartment complex, or I'd offer my place up as well.

Rzoops

Yea, the rear is like a 70-90mm diameter spring that is also progressive. I have some engineering friends who like this kind of stuff, so it shouldn't be too difficult to have an adapter machined to fit the bottom of the rear upper top hat and then provide a smaller ring to fit a straight 70mm spring. I hear KW will sell replacement rear springs with increased spring rates, but I know they're fairly secretive when it comes to how their progressive springs actually spec out for spring rates. If I'm going to be changing things, I want to know exactly how it is being changed.

Vorshlag is a good group of guys. AST recently acquired Moton, which I think will benefit consumers of both brands (combined with Vorshlag's experience and tech support). A local friend and racer has been one of their "Test Pilots" for the S2000 platform and would be helping with the RX-8 if and when I go that route..

lycanthrope

hey one of my best friends has an e36 with the ast's on it as well. they dont make that line of c/o's for the 8 yet though. they are really nice though i cant remember what spring rate he has but the ride is still pretty good. i myself have been looking at the kw's and the pss9's. glad to hear more about what people think of the kw's. isnt that what don morgan has on his car?

Rzoops

Don has KW's as well. Honestly, I decided to get a setup really close to him so that it would help us develop the cars twice as quickly. We both want to do some more national tours this year, and hopefully the national championship, so we know we have a lot of work ahead of us.

AST can do a coilover for the RX-8, it just isn't something they have sitting on the shelf anywhere. Motons are sold the same way - shocks only. That's usually how Yellows are used for most applications, but it just so happens that they are a complete pain to get to work on the RX-8 because of their design. I spoke with Lee at Koni NA several times, and there's a reason that Fat Cat sells what should be a very cheap assembly for about $1,800.

You can have a very stiffly sprung car on high quality shocks and still have it ride well. It's when you throw 12k springs on Stance coilovers that you see the difference in a high quality vs. low quality shock. AST, KW, and Bilstein all make great stuff for your purposes. I had strongly considered the PSS9's for my car, and actually did have them on order, but their ETA kept getting pushed back and I just decided to screw it and copy Don. They seem to work very well for a lot of STX-ers.

BruceLeeJKD

I have an E36 M3 with AST 4100s. I'm also running vorshlag camber plates and lots of other little goodies. The coilovers have performed very well so far, but I just need to dial in the settings.

Yea the spring rates are 600f/750r. They are noticeably stiffer, but not too bad considering the spring rates are over 5 times higher than stock.

For those that don't know I also have an MR2 Turbo with Koni yellows which really improved the feel of the car. It could still use some stiffer springs though and I'm thinking about going Eibach pro-kit eventually.

Mazdax3

Right now I'm completely stock. Shocks should be still good since I have only 6K miles on them. Looking at the options, basically I want to drop it more for looks, but not to the point where I have to roll the fenders. Besides, at my age, I should be raising the car up to get in/out of it easier.

I do have a second set of tires for winter I picked up from a friend. He used to have them on his RX-8. They're 245/45-18 on +42mm offset Enkei's. He had his 8 dropped with the Mazdaspeed springs, which lowered his 8 by about 3/4". He didn't have rubbing issues.

The Speedsource springs and roll bars might be a good combo. Before I got my 8, I took out an R3. About the only thing I noticed (besides the tight fit of my butt in the Recaro's) was turn-in was a little crisper in the R3. That probably was the Bilsteins/lower springs and maybe a little less weight with the forged wheels. Other than that, I couldn't really tell much difference in ride quality.

lycanthrope

Hmmm maybe a good alingnment could help your turn in. Not sure what numbers you've got right now but it made worlds of differance on mine. Also pat this weekend your going down!

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

You could go as low as possible an not really have to worry about rubbing with the stock wheels and tires. With your winters, you might rub on the bumper tab but only if you were dropped quite drastically. That is only due to the tire being a little taller than stock. You really only get into rubbing when going to lower offset lot wider wheels while lowering more than 1.5" or so. I'm on s-techs and have had no rubbing issues ever with 18x9 +37 with 245-40's. You'ld have to get quite aggressive offset (+30 or more) to rub with ~1 inch drop.

BruceLeeJKD

Yea that's not going to happen. Maybe I should just take the MR2 so you actually have a shot a beating me. Then again you do drive a car with 1 ft-lb or torque, so I should be good...

lycanthrope

i thought the mr2 was your "track car" anyway. also hows life without a/c? and while were at it with all the money youve dumped into the m3 im pretty sure your bsp car should kill my stx car right?

Atredeus

Unfortunately I haven't driven a stock 8, so I have nothing to compare it to, but it corners like a dream. I have yet to really push the thing, but I wanted to get used to driving stick before I tried.

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

I will gladly abuse it for you and give you my impressions

moete87

iTrader: (1)

It all depends on what you want to accomplish. Do you want to be a road warrior and take the curves to the max limit or autox or somewhere in between. I highly reccoment the Megan racing coilovers. I had them on my 8 a few years ago and loved them to death. Great ride, fully adjustable and you can tune the dampening effect 32 different ways to control the softness and hardness of the type of ride quality that you want to achieve. You can't go wrong with th at all and the price is right. Roughly $800 - $850

lycanthrope

you forgot to mention that it made your car look reeeeallly good.

moete87

iTrader: (1)

Very true. These will be going on my 8 as soon as I have some funds pop up. But you are right my friend..they made the car look super sexy!