fisherdn

I need to get out to the garage day b/c I tried to change my oil sunday, like I have several times before, and I couldn't loosen the darn drain plug. It was changed last time by Mazda, so I wonder if one of those monkeys used an impact wrench or something. I was so pissed trying to get that damn thing off. I want to try again before I pay mazda $30 for something I can do.

/rant

terretsboy

I did mine yesterday and had the same problem. Just got out the ratchet out, hooked it up and hit it with my hand.

WaterLogged

Nothing a good breaker bar can't fix. I just happen to have one!

fisherdn

That would have been nice but I didn't want to jack the car up high enough to apply enough torque to my wrench. Normally I just barely jack it up enough to get under there and it does the job.

baseballgenius80

Sounds like we'll be having a good turn out Monday for Autocross. Really looking forward to it all.

maskedferret

iTrader: (1)

I'm gonna try really hard to be up there in the morning to watch :D

WaterLogged

You can also be DP (designated passenger).

baseballgenius80

Yeah ferret, that would be cool. Feel free to ride along with Bill as he said and also me if you want. That way, you can see the differences in our driving where it will be easier to see where Bill hits the marks but I am slightly off. The two perspectives may help give you a head start if you decide to race yourself.

terretsboy

You have flames shooting out the back of your car yet bball? I was getting tailgated the other day and thought about how I would love to have that. f**cking trucks **** me off. Usually when Mr. Big Rig Small ***** starts to ride my *** I make sure to take my sweeeeeeeeeeet time getting going at the light.

baseballgenius80

No flames yet, not sure how I want to get around the fact of it burning up my Cat and O2 censor. I think I've had that trucker guy behind me a time or two. Can't wait to see you at Gateway on Monday. Bill and I were starting to have withdrawals.

WaterLogged

I know how to keep from burning up your Cat... remove it! Of course then you'd have flames anyway.

baseballgenius80

I've thought about going with a new exhaust and a straight pipe...or how would just a straight pipe and stock exhaust sound? Not like I have much of a cat with that rust hole in it.

terretsboy

What time are we planning on getting together on sat? A partner at my firm wants to take me out shooting on saturday. Could we move it to sunday? I'm trying to get one or the other changed, I really want to do both.

WaterLogged

It's really up to maskedferret since it's his project we'll be working on. I have something on Sunday that can easily be switched to Saturday. I know Saturday is also not good for BBG. I was originally thinking at noonish, but if we move it to Sunday I could potentially have the whole day open.

fisherdn

Sunday would work great for me

baseballgenius80

I would definitely be in for Sunday. If we did it Sunday...maybe we could adjust my camber real quick. Looks like the subs won't be getting changed out right away to where they are easily removable.

terretsboy

So Sunday is good for everyone if it works for ferret?

I want to try to start brainstorming on sub designs and see how much it would cost. Anyone have a trunk not loaded up with subs etc to stare at and comment on?

Also, we should probably see if we can find a big balloon that can hold the amount of air we need to figure out how much space we would have to use up for hte sub box. (ie. if we need 1.3 cubic feet of air, get a balloon that can be blown up to that size and se can see what nooks we can fit it into. Just a "bright" idea that I had right now) That will help us visualize it better. I have some magnum condoms in my dresser drawer if we need them.



And no Bill, they are not for my boyfriend (pre-emptive strike to limit your smartass possibilities)

terretsboy

Can you adjust the camber on stock springs?

WaterLogged

You can get a bit of adjustment on the rear rather simply and the front takes a little bit of work, but it can be done. Of course nothing beats a set of camber plates, but that would throw us all out of B-Stock class at the autocrosses.

terretsboy

What are the benefits/downfalls of adjusting camber?

WaterLogged

In Phil's case, he's got so much weight in the rear of his car with the big subs and all he's got a lot of negative camber that the outer wall of his rear tires never touch the ground. This obviously affects handling and tire wear. You want a little bit of negative camber to react to the flexing of the suspension under load so you get the maximum amount of tread on the ground, but too much is counterproductive. I suggested to him that he dial a bit of that negative camber out of the rear until he can find a way to remove that excess weight for race days.

maskedferret

iTrader: (1)

Guys, I work on Sundays at 5pm. If we want to do this on that day, then we might want to get an early start if possible. Also, the event at Gateway on Monday - how late does that go? It seems I will be working 5pm that day as well.

fisherdn

Unfortunately terrets, I am unable to come up with a witty response to your post. You were very smart to cut off the pre-emptive strike, and promptly change the subject.

fisherdn

Not sure if you guys saw this post, but it is great. It is a pretty fair track comparison between the 8 and the Z done by DPE, a great forum vendor in KC.

Here it is: (kinda long, but well worth reading)

---------------------------------------------------------------

RX-8 vs. 350Z - A Few Track Impressions
NOTE: This is a repost of what Craig and I had to say in the RX-8 Competition forum about a track day we had a few weeks ago. I just thought people who missed it there (since it was buried in another post) might find it at least slightly interesting. This is not meant to suggest we've achieved objective proof on anything, merely that on one track day with two different cars here's what we observed......

************************************************** *

(My comments):

While we're bench racing Zs vs. RX-8s, I can claim some relevant experience. This is of course not scientific proof of anything, merely a few observations.

Craig has an '06 350Z Enthusiast. It was on OEM tires (RE040s), has Koni shocks, a Whiteline adjustable rear swaybar, our prototype front BBK (Wilwood-based) with Carbotech XP10s all around, and a 3" JIC Exhaust and y-pipe.

I have an '04 RX-8 GT. It's on 245/40 Avon M500s, has Tokico D-specs with Tein H-techs, Whiteline adjustable sways front and rear, Carbotech XP8s all around, AEM intake, and MS Sport Exhaust.

We were up at Mid-America Motorplex a few weeks ago, which is a 2.2 mile track just south of Omaha, NE in Iowa. It is VERY flat, with 14 turns and very good pavement. It was below freezing the first half of the day, and just above freezing the second half of the day with a gentle 30-35mph wind. Really lovely, let me tell you. But by late morning the sun was putting some heat into the track, and within 2 laps of a given session you could run pretty much normally. Prior to that, be ready to do lots of sliding on cold tires . That thing you hear about 'summer' tires not being so grippy below 40 degrees or so? Yeah, that's right.

Anyway, this was essentially my first track day in an RX-8. I had it on track at Hallett for a few short sessions last year, but that day was cut short for reasons I'm 100% sure no one wants details on. At any rate, I've been tracking Subarus of sorts for the previous 5 years, and one could say the RX-8 is a bit different than a WRX or STI. Or a lot different. Point being, I was pretty slow because I'm not used to driving a proper RWD sports car, much less a car with a lot more chassis than power (Subarus are the opposite in that respect). Craig used to have an RX-8, and had probably 500-600 track miles in his on a few different tracks. And he has at least that many on the Z, probably more. I would consider us comparable drivers, but Craig has a lot more seat time in sports cars than I do (A Subaru, while fast around a track, isn't exactly a sports car), and is probably a bit more adept overall at getting the most out of a car that isn't a Subaru.

Before this gets too long, which may be too late now, the point is that later in the day we swapped cars. The approximate best times look like this:

Phil in RX-8 - 1:55
Craig in RX-8 - 1:52
(Yes, Craig waxed me in my own car )

Phil in 350Z - 1:52
Craig in 350Z - 1:49
(Yes, Craig also waxed me in his car)

So as you can see, given the cars that day, on that track, the 350Z was certainly a bit quicker. Given more seat time in the RX-8, Craig might have found another second and made it closer, but upon riding with him in the RX-8 even later in the day it didn't feel like there was a lot left on the table. There's always some left of course, as we aren't pro racers or anything, but given the constraints we were working in that was how it came out.

Times notwithstanding, the RX-8 is a MUCH better track car than the Z. Obviously won't get around a track as fast, but is much more rewarding to drive. The Z has crappy brake feel even with the BBK, and despite his being a 2006 with 10k miles on it it already has loads of knockback (front wheel bearings are probably getting loose). Not exactly confidence inspiring. But you should have felt it with the OEM brakes; scary! The motor is quite nice of course, and the steering feels decent, but you're just not connected with the car quite like you are in the RX-8. Just a lot more rubber bushings between you and the road it feels like. And in extreme maneuvers you feel entire sub-assemblies shifting around under there with groans and clunks. It's not a bad car, and is a fast car, but it's not an RX-8. And that's not just my opinion either; Craig will very likely be trading the Z off for an RX-8 within the next 6 months .

************************************************** ****
(Craig's Follow-up comments in the same thread):

OK, I'm going to chime in now. I'm Craig, the one who Phil mentioned.

At Mid America Motorplex (MAM), the Z and 8 were only about 3 seconds apart. I'm pretty sure I had another 1 second in me in the 8 with another session or two, so we'll call them 2-3 seconds a lap apart. I'm pretty confident I was extracting as much as I could (emphasis on "I", as a faster driver no doubt could have done better) from the Z for the day.

On the other tracks we visit, the Z is more seconds per lap faster - MAM is friendlier to the RX-8 than other tracks, as there are no uphill climbs out of slow corners like those at Hallett or Heartland Park, our other frequent haunts. MAM is literally flat, no elevation changes, and cars spend a lot of time cornering or transitioning. It's a track that rewards cars that are balanced and that can rotate effectively.

That is a key strength of the RX-8 - it can rotate on command. The Z requires a lot of patience to hustle it around a track effectively. You spend a lot of time waiting for the ship to turn, focusing on maximizing the amount of time you spend accelerating since that car is all about the time spent on the throttle. But, the cornering is never really all that enjoyable since you're mostly understeering. And, as Phil mentioned, the brakes kind of suck from the factory, and with the DPE BBK on it they are much improved but the knockback is ever-present and one has to keep an eye on that, which can take a little bit of the fun out of it.

By contrast, the RX-8 is all about brakes and cornering. What's the most fun part of driving on track? Braking and cornering!!! Anyone can put their foot down and accelerate down the straight. But, the RX-8 relishes and devours corners, as opposed to merely tolerating them as in the Z. I would say that I can get through a fair number of corners nearly as fast in the Z as in Phil's RX-8, but I can't get on the gas as early and it's not nearly as fun. You don't get to throw the Z into a corner like you do the 8. You have to gently and patiently bend it into a corner in an effort not to overwhelm the front tires. With the RX-8, you can throw it at a corner and enjoy the balancing act all the way through it.

Add to that brakes that are always effective (with proper pads and fluid) and a pedal that's always where you left it (unlike the pedal in a Z, WRX, STI, etc.), dual oil coolers to keep oil temps in check, a reasonably effective radiator, built-in brake cooling, and (here's the kicker) loads of alignment adjustability from the factory unlike the Z, WRX/STI, etc., and the RX-8 makes for a car that is really built for track duty.

The Z will be the first to overheat in my experience, will be the hardest to keep brakes under it, will overheat its tires quickest, has a less effective diff, has terrible brake feel, has loads of rubber bushings between you and the road to cut down on driving feel, and generally just doesn't feel all that inspiring to drive on track. In a Z, you coax it around the track for the quickest lap. In an RX-8, when you drive it as fast as you can, you feel like you have really wrung the neck of the car for the best it can do.

The RX-8 is just a pure driver's car, rewarding, communicative, and responsive. The Z, STI, etc., may be faster, but they aren't more enjoyable on track in my opinion (and I've driven a Z, Phil's well-modified WRX, and Phil's moderately modified STI on track enough to know). There's very good reason that my next car will likely be the same as my previous car, another RX-8. It's just a whole lot more fun to drive on track (for me, anyway) than a Z. I don't care about being slower than I am in the Z, but I do care about grinning like an idiot when I come off track, and that's what the RX-8 offers. After driving Phil's RX-8 (which is very well setup, I should add) at MAM, I was ready to go trade the Z in for the first RX-8 I found when I got back home. Sure, I put a few seconds a lap on him in the Z, but I didn't come off track in the Z with the same kind of high that I did from driving the RX-8. That's the same way I felt each time I came off track in my own RX-8. I miss that feeling.

Ultimately it boils down to this, in my opinion: are you more about the end or the means? If lap times and track domination are your thing, the RX-8 isn't your car. If you're more about extracting the most enjoyment from each lap, with the least amount of fuss and bother and work and modification to your street car, I would bet there are few cars out there that are better than the RX-8.
__________________
Phil
Driven Performance Equipment
913.441.4144
www.dpeweb.com
sales@dpeweb.com
2004 RX-8 GT - Finally!

WaterLogged

Yeah, I've chatted with Phil in the past. He's definitely a great guy. I can pretty much agree on the opinion of the 8, also. I've driven faster cars, but the 8 is a pure grin machine.

ferret... would 10am Sunday morning be too early for you? If we end up doing a garage day out of this I might suggest we head back out to the garage in Wentzville. The weather is also supposed to be questionable all weekend. Of course those guys don't usually know their **** from a hole in the ground. We can meet up at my place then decide from there.