Joe McDowell

OK, first post here and I'm so appreciative that these forums exist! I'm very handy and have never run into anything that I couldn't fix on my own, so this is really stumping me. I have an 08 that I just purchased for a reasonable price and I know there's quite a few 'exciting' points of owning an RX8. Within the last week, I've replaced the coils (with BHR as per the forums suggestions - thank you); along with the plugs and the wires; I've removed the starter and had it tested (test a-ok); new battery; and a thorough cleaning up and down and all around (I have access to a lift so getting underneath and all around is substantially easier that at home in a driveway).

Problem - really hard starts...cranks and cranks and I have to time out the firing and listen for the sound of the engine finally turning over before letting go of the key.

1. I have not gotten a compression test, though my idle is fine (stable without waver at around 850rpm's), my power is fine, and there is no sputtering or hiccups anywhere through the acceleration process up to 9,000rpm's - so I know I can't rule that out, but I'm thinking that the problem is elsewhere
2. The exhaust smell is extremely present in the cab of the car at lower speeds (40mph and under) - I wonder if this points to needing a new cat (I do throw p0137 and p0139 from time to time). After all the reading of the forums, I'm not sold that a new cat would solve the starting problem since it runs fine after firing, so this very well could be a totally different issue.
3. I just read a few things about injector leakage today. Since it is hard to start and I have flooded it a number of times, is this suspect? Seems somewhat legit to me if there's too much fuel in the chambers to begin with it wouldn't fire until the excess fuel is forced through the system, at which time the cel codes go off because of excess fuel in the cat area.

I'm pretty sure at this point whatever suggestion someone gives me I'm going to jump on...I love this car and I'm not at the point of banging my head against the wall, but I would love for it to start like a normal everyday driver (good news is that none of my friends, or my girlfriend can start it so it's safe from abuse)

Thanks for any responses in advance!

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Does the starter sound like its spinning slower than usual? They are known the slow down/die with age, but also if your battery has lost a cell or two, it will have trouble creating adequate starter speed.

If you can drive to redline fine it's not the cat, although you could have an exhaust leak or something that's letting the cabin fill with exhaust (I had something similar, the header-to-cat gasket had disintegrated. The occasional p0137 and p0139 confirm this.

So step one, get that looked at.

Is there any difference in starting hot or cold?

Joe McDowell

no difference hot or cold...and I had the starter off today and tested against a brand new one...same rpms; same amperage, same everything...and the battery is brand new as well and cranks the starter nice and hard...the speed of the starter like I said is identical to a new one...

I just did the nvram (I think that's what it's called) reset (20 brake stomps) and it had no effect

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

I would suggest cleaning the ESS, then doing the 20 brake stomp again, (anytime you mess with the ESS)
and checking your fuel pump pressure.
Have you tried turning the key to ON, then waiting a few seconds before cranking?
I usually turn the key on, buckle my seat belt, then start it.

04Green

iTrader: (1)

I would look into the gasket, as Loki suggested. A leak will also suck in outside air between pulses and this can confuse the O2 sensor. I seem to think that the car starts in open loop, so the extra air will not cause a problem then, but may have really messed with the idle trims, and that could make it hard to start. However, your 20 brake stomp should have sorted that.

Not sure what you mean by "time out the firing" You should crank until the car start, or about 5 seconds pass, whichever is sooner.

Look at the congrats thread in my signature. Big Cajun already mentioned on of the steps. Basically, start with everything that says "clean" on the list.

Let us know what happens.

Joe McDowell

ok, so my next steps: I pulled out the air filter and it's brand new...there's a bit of oil on it where the air intake 'tube' meets the airbox, but my knowledge tells me that's normal and I started it with the airbox open and it responded as I would expect (no change in start time). So I cleaned the MAF and put it back - no change - so I seafoamed the intake 'ports' (the two connections to the main air 'tube' - started the engine and allowed a little seafoam to be sucked in at a time) - a lot of white smoke of course and I stalled it a few times sucking too much in and it started right back up when that happened. I left it idle for a long time cleaning out the seafoam and this morning it started a little better, but probably left it crank 15 to 20 seconds before it turned over. Next is the ESS

could it be that I need to replace the fuel injectors? seemed to really improve the starting issue when I stalled it with the seafoam. The counter to that assessment though is that it runs like a champ all the way to red line and I would think faulty injectors would create at least a hiccup or 2 on acceleration

StarSpinner

The starter is probably not the root cause of your problem, but I would bet that it is exacerbating the issue significantly. These starters are permanent magnet starters and they will slow down as another member noted. Unfortunately, harder starts result in longer cranking times and longer cranking times result in greater thermal stress on the starter. Were this to occur with greater frequency more often, the ceramic (ceramic 8 probably) magnets will lose their strength. Note that they will not approach and pass the Curie temp and lose all mag properties, but they will degrade and cause the starter to spin slower under load. Hard starting is a bad feedback loop for the starter itself. It would be ideal to make a note of the cranking speed.

Testing against a new starter on a bench without loading it will likely give you no useful information unless you just happen to have a magnetometer available.

Steps you can take before buying a new starter include thoroughly cleaning electrical connections from battery to starter and back, determining the condition of the current battery via load testing, and ensuring thermal guards for the battery are in place (Battery Box).

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Have you had a compression test done? It's sort of important to know the health of the engine, especially since an 08 is coming up on the end of the engine core warranty period. If it's low, no point changing injectors and such.

Joe McDowell

update: I've cleaned the ess and it had no effect (did the 20 brake stomp again) - I have a decent OBDII setup using Torque:
-right between 290 and 300 rpm's on the starter (seems ok)
-I'm getting 18.65mpg consistently; that's mostly highway (seems it would be less with compression loss or bad cat...btw, I think the previous owner gutted the cat and that's a good portion of the exhaust fumes I'm smelling)

I'm going to call around tomorrow and schedule a compression test (fingers crossed); I'm hoping they can just fit me in and I won't have to wait.

Khurram

yes, get the compression test in case something is iffy your engine should still be under warranty for next few months or so

Also try swapping the starter with a new unit to see if that changes anything.
My 04 went through similar issues as yours, my mechanic sent out the starter to have it rebuilt and rebuilt starter yield nothing different.

then I tried a new starter from Mazda and voila! she cranked right up :-)

Joe McDowell

Sitting at a Mazda dealer right now...compression is really bad on rotor 1 and pretty bad on 2 ...they quoted me $5500 to replace the whole thing...grrr

Joe McDowell

Any shops you guys trust other than a Mazda dealer in northern md, southern pa?

Steve Dallas

Your engine has an 8 year / 100K mile warranty. Are you outside that period?

Requiem-X8

just replace the Cat, it will save you trouble.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Totally agree with this, have the cat examined/replaced. Under warranty if possible. Catalytic converters also have an 8 year warranty as I recall, and if the engine is wounded, the cat is probably done too.

If they give you grief about using BHR coils and deny warranty coverage, the law in the US places the onus on them to prove that those components caused the failure. Considering you just put them on, that's going to be a tough case for them to make.

What exactly are the compression numbers?

Good luck, hope you get your car back soon, with engine!