vr8money

Hey all..
Had my rx8 for about 5 years and the motor is blown. Not sure where to go from here. How often do rolling shells sell? To get a new engine would cost as much as the car is worth. Not sure what to do!

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Blown motor RX-8s are in the 3-4k range, assuming it's in great shape otherwise. Price drops from there 2k is usually a for-sure sale.


Depending on your year and transmission, you can get an engine for cheaper than the price I expect you got quoted at a dealer, and better quality too.

vr8money

Its an 04 rx8. When I went to a garage they were saying around 2500 for an engine. This is the second engine that has blown in the car, first one was under warranty. Thanks for letting me know!

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I'm guessing from your usage and context of 'garage', that you are in the UK?

If so, that changes the numbers quite a bit, those were US dollars I referenced, and engine availability is probably lower. You may have to ask in a UK thread in the Europe regional subforum.

vr8money

No I'm in the US, currently located in Virginia.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Ah, sorry. Calling a repair shop a 'garage' is typical of the UK so it threw me off.

My original reply is roughly accurate again.

$2,500 for an engine from the dealer isn't too bad, though the reman quality is hit or miss. A rebuild would cost you about the same, maybe some more, though it would be far more sure that you have a good engine. (if you choose that option)

vr8money

I actually did get an engine rebuild.. paid 1800 dollars only to have my rx8 still sitting in my garage. "Supposedly" he changed my apex seals and housing..but my back housing is still not running. It's been quite a headache. 2500 might not be bad for an engine, but the labor is what was going to get me.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, sounds like a shady rebuilder. Plenty of rotary rebuilders out there cut corners or don't properly reassemble the engine, or re-use stuff that they shouldn't. It's very rare that both housings don't have to be replaced, and they are $700 each. Add a $600 seals and gaskets kit and you are at $2k just for parts. Add in labor for the rebuild itself, and either that guy built you an engine at a loss or took major short cuts, leaving you with the result you have. If that was $1,800 including labor to pull the engine and re-install it too, then all he could possibly have done was pull it, disassemble and re-assemble with new seals. But that is doomed to failure, as the irons need to be lapped, usually the housings need to be replaced, and all of the seals and gaskets need to be sure they are new and fit properly. Just cutting some of seals properly is beyond many rebuilders experience or care.

It's like putting brand new wheels on a car without any tires installed. You aren't going to get anywhere and it's just going to chew up the new stuff you bought while you try.

vr8money

I feel like he cut major corners...pretty much a huge waste of money and a headache which is why I was hoping I could sell it with a blown motor.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yes, many opt for that.

As you have less than 10 posts still, you won't be able to create a FS thread here yet, though you could PM Zoom44 to ask for it to be manually lifted. Or you could wander through the multi-media section and look for 5 different threads that have content that you find interesting enough to comment on.

monchie

Sorry on what happened. If you want to sell it fast, sell it to a mechanic who knows about rotaries or anyone who knows about rebuilding rotary engines, good luck!

vr8money

Yeah its hard to find any mechanics are my area that are willing to deal with a rotary. Hopefully ill post it on here and it will sell.

vr8money

I'll see about PM'ing zoom44

xombiefiedx

You said it was an 04? I had the same problem. Your engine may not be blown. I was able to fix mine when Mazda deemed it blown as well. PM me if you are interested in the fix and let me know what it was doing. I have 104***kms on my 04 and she runs great!

vr8money

I really do think it's a blown motor.. What was wrong with yours ? Mine had water getting into the oil..

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Well, now hold on there...I'll have to disagree with some of what you've said.

I guess I should preface this by saying that the owner's expectations and budget determine the work that will go into most rebuilds, and that is true of most any rebuilder.

Of course, all builders would love to do things "the right way" and simply replace any part that is at all questionable or remotely out of spec. That would cut down drastically on cleaning time, inspection time, it would build a nicer and prettier engine, the engine would have more compression and probably last longer. In short it would make the builder look more awesome for having done less work.

So, you ask yourself...why would any self respecting builder not do things that way? THE SAME REASON FOR EVERYTHING ELSE THAT MAKES THE WORLD GO AROUND...MONEY! Builders can no more pull free parts out of their asses than can anyone else. IF you expect X number of new parts to go into your engine, guess what? YOU are going to have to pay for those parts.

Oh, well when you start talking like that, suddenly the customer takes a step back, and the compromises begin. Each and every part in that engine is a judgement call based on the builder's experience. So the builder is tasked with saying, "well, with the cost of new parts in mind, it looks like although this part has mild wear, it is okay to reuse and save you $550", or "well, this part is considerably more worn than the others, I do not believe we will have good results if we reuse this part, so you should buy a new one at $650", etc etc. on down the line with each part. The builder must always keep the customer's budget in mind, since it is not the builder's own money he is spending on the project.

Some builders do not give these options or explanations, they simply say "I need 5 grand to build your engine "the right way" or I won't build it at all". For whatever reason, these builders are given extreme respect and credibility in the community for doing what amounts to less service for each customer. Almost anyone can build a rotary engine using all new parts, as minimal clearancing and inspection are required to do so. I could EASILY instruct my 9 year old kid to build a rotary engine from all new parts without issue. There are probably 60 year old japanese grandmothers doing it in hiroshima right now. I have always felt that it requires more knowledge, more work, and more experience to judge the condition of used parts for reuse accurately and successfully, than it would take to build a "mostly new parts" block and slap a big bill on the customer. Yet, the community continues to look at it backward, the shops who operate this way are revered among community members.

Meanwhile, the more budget minded builders (including myself) take **** for being "shady" or "cutting corners" even though we usually are more than willing to explain every step of our decision making process to the customer, and in fact often put those decisions directly in the hands of the customers (as it should be). Yet, when the customer gets exactly what he paid for, which turns out not to be a like-new engine with all brand new parts inside, suddenly the builder is the bad guy for "cutting corners". So here we have one builder charging 4 or 5 grand for slapping together some new parts and charging more for their higher overhead, and on the other hand we have guys who help the customer reuse what they can and replace what they must for 2 or 3 grand, all the while doing more actual work and charging less for labor and overhead than the first shop, and yet we are the ones who hear crap about "cutting corners". You can imagine how highly annoying this is to the honest builders out there who fit this profile.

Are there truly "shady" builders out there? I am sure. Perhaps we are truly discussing one of them in this thread. However, in my time dealing with the rotary-owning public, I have learned that more often than not, "customers who got screwed" are actually "customers who make up ****" or "customers who were uneducated or unrealistic in their expectations, got what they asked for and paid for, but are now disappointed in the results", and not actually "customers who got screwed through no fault of their own".

As to the technical merits of the discussion, I'll go over a couple of things.

LAPPING IRONS: From what I know, most builders do not lap irons. The irons are supposed to be perfectly flat and are actually treated with a factory hardness process called "nitriding" which prevents premature iron and rotor seal wear. This hardness treatment is sometimes visible on low mileage irons to someone with an experienced eye. Over many tens of thousands of miles, the treatment gets worn away slowly, although it never fully wears away. Irons usually develop a few thousandths of wear in two key places on their surfaces. Even moderate wear on iron faces will usually not impact compression or longevity significantly.

However, there are some who would have you believe that any "proper" rebuild should utilized lapped irons (ground flat again). I believe the people who say this actually do not know the full story. When you lap and iron, you remove ALL of the factory hardness treatment. So now you have a part that is almost half as hard as it was previously, and obviously will wear more quickly. I have seen irons that were lapped (but not re-treated) wear extremely and fail within 10k miles, resulting in deep grooving, smoking, extremely worn rotor seals, and low compression.

I would rather build with a 120k mile original used iron with 3 thou of wear in a couple of spots than I would with a lapped-but-not-retreated iron fresh from the shop, for this reason. Yet, the misconception would have you believe that this is done to 'cut corners".

You can also get into other technical problems when lapping irons, such as total engine length and endplay concerns, depth of coolant seal grooves on rx7 irons, seeping/leaking coolant nipples because the pipes had to be removed during the lapping process, etc.

The "correct" way to do this process is to lap and then re-treat the irons with the nitriding process, so restore original hardness and longevity. There is only one provider in the country that I know for a fact does it this way. You have to ship all the irons there, pay for the process, and ship them all back. Even with a builder/shop discount on the process price and even with a bulk shipping discount on round trip shipping, you are going to have at least $800 in this phase of the build. That is money that ultimately, the customer is going to have to pay. Customers like to talk a big game about "sparing no expense" and "doing it the right way" but when you start putting pen to paper and show them the numbers, all of that usually goes out the window and we backpedal to where we started, with a basic builder-recommended rebuild/refresh.

It's nice to say that you've done it "the right way" but honestly, the average 100k mile used set of irons does not require this $800 service, and the engine will not benefit $800 worth in most cases, IMO. That $800 is better spent somewhere else, such as motor mounts, ignition coils, rotor housings, etc. that DO require the extra attention.

NEW ROTOR HOUSINGS: The same goes for rotor housings (although I regard these as more of a necessity in renesis engines with over 80-100k miles than I would in an rx7 engine because the renesis rotor housings wear much faster). IT is great to build with them, and that is how you will get max compression and longevity. But at $1350/set or so from mazda, do you want to afford them? They will roughly double the build price and put it up around 3 grand (or more), and that is not money the builder is making, that is MONEY THAT MAZDA IS MAKING. Is 3 grand for an engine worth it for a car that's worth 5-6 grand total?

Sure, technically by the book you are always supposed to use new rotor housings in any rotary engine rebuild where the housings have any defects or wear whatsoever. Does that make "allowing the customer to choose to reuse the housings and accept the compromises" actually "cutting corners"?

As you can see, saying that "both housings need to be replaced" is subjective based on owner budget and owner expectations for the car and the engine. Bear in mind that these cars get passed around often, this is not the kind of car that the average person bought brand new and still owns today 8-9 years later. These things are already on their 4th or 5th owner in many cases, and will continue to be traded and sold. SEVERAL of the cars I have rebuilt for customers have already been sold, because the new owners immediately call me up and start asking questions about the history of the car and the engine. In some cases this happens as soon as 2 months after I've built the engine for the first customer. They drop in the engine, get it running, break it in, and sell it. So what I am saying is that these kind of customers might not be able to justify "building it right" when their intention is not to keep the car long-term anyway.

So if you have the budget to "do the job right" as you would call it and not "cut corners", and you intend to own the car long enough to justify that expenditure, then more power to you...but I would think twice before I called out those who choose to do less as "shady" or "cutting corners".

Hopefully this has helped dispel some misinformation and misconceptions about rotary rebuilds, workmanship, and budget.

Razz1

Just remember how expensice it is to own a piston engine.

A valve job can cost you 2500 bucks or more depending upon the engine size.

The expense to replace your motor is very cheap when you look at it from that perspective.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Good post RR. I don't disagree with you on any of that, the judgement calls on the engine OR the presence of customer compromises or deception.

I have a habit of distilling down to the basics to set an expectation that is somewhat "off" from the precise truth of the matter. Somewhat of a slap in the face to get someone thinking in the right direction before worrying about the precise accuracy of the statement. In the realm of engine rebuilds, I believe owners need to have a good expectation of what probably needs to be done, and if they compromise on one or all components at least they understand the weight of the compromises they are making. If the expectation is set low, it would be a poor service to the owner and any rebuilder as they struggle with trying to get the bar set where it needs to be on that particular engine.

I also largely believe that the "shady builders" are the ones that don't set that bar appropriately, telling the customer that they can get away with far less than their engine needs without really worrying about the consequences. I highly doubt there are many, if any, builders out there that screw customers over without the customer's complicity in it to some degree. Actually, any that may exist are probably at the expensive end of the rebuilders, not the cheap end.


I know you can do the rebuilds properly for cheaper than most, and I never intent an insult against you, your business, or your quality.


Thanks for the further details about the lapping, very useful.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

That's right. We all hear about how awesome GM LS v8 engines are. Well I recently rebuilt one that had low oil pressure. Even doing all my own labor and buying all my own parts at the best deals I could find, I had about a grand in a basic refresh, not counting remove/install labor, and all of my major components were reusable in the engine. Had you paid shop rate, that work would have cost 2-3 grand easily...and the engine didn't even have a catastrophic failure.

bladeiai

iTrader: (1)

There is a place in MD (not to far depending on where in VA you are) that charges:

The seal rebuild kits are $1,450.00
The labor for rebuilding the engine is $1,000.00
The labor for removing and tearing down the engine is $750.00
The labor for putting everything back on the engine and then back in the car is $750.00.
Total is 3,950.00 in and out and rebuilt.

Street port is $400.00 and that includes enlarging the intake runners.

That would assume that your housings are not damaged to the point where they can't be salvaged.

Also has been used by a forum member for a rebuild and was happy with the process/quality he got.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Apparently, I work too cheap even at $1600 for the block rebuild including seals and $1000 remove/install labor. But, I guess that's because I cut corners, lol.

bladeiai

iTrader: (1)

If you weren't 450 miles away I would certainly give serious thought to using you when the time comes for a rebuild.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Plenty of people have transported or shipped cars to me from farther. I've done remove/rebuild/install jobs for guys from maine, connecticut, florida, kansas, oklahoma, missouri, and illinois, and those are just off the top of my head. I have an FD here from St. Louis right now, along with an rx8 block from a carribbean island near South America, and I recently shipped an engine to Spain. It's cool though, I'm not campaigning for more work...I have all I can do here right now.

bladeiai

iTrader: (1)

Touché sir... I will seriously consider using you when the time comes despite you being 450 miles away...

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Good stuff. RR is exactly right. The problem I have found with most of the rotary builders I have spoken too is that they are just not professional or knowledgeable. The hardest part, and where knowledge and experience comes in is in determining what parts are good or bad and then how good and how bad. There is also little consistency in thought process or build methods when it comes to Renesis rebuilding.

Of those I spoke too (including the larger operations such as Mazdatrix, Racing beat, and Atkins), only Rob from Pineapple cared enough to discuss or explain anything at length. They barely wanted to talk to me let alone go into the detail that you just did RR. Most just quote a price and rattle off what that includes without asking for any real details from the customer. And I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about the cars and I asked a ton of questions which only seemed to annoy them so I can only imagine what it would be like for someone with little experience or knowledge about these cars to search for an engine builder. I wish I had talked to RR about it, but admittedly I considered him as more of a shade tree mechanic than a reputable builder. Since then I have learned more about him, and I can say that I was wrong and I should have taken him more seriously and spoken to him at length about my build and what I wanted.