Introduction with a few questions
03-29-2014, 10:53 AM
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Introduction with a few questions
Hi all I'm a new RX8 owner from up in Alberta Canada, picked up a 2004 MT for what I thought was a decent price, picked it up cheap knowing it was a project. A closer inspection found a few more issues than I was hoping i would have to deal with, more visual imperfections and stuff that I don't like to deal with, I'm a drive train builder kinda guy, I hate bodywork and paintwork.
Last few weeks have been:
1.Picked up new: headlights, taillights, exhaust
2.Pulled off the bumper to straighten the front section so that the headlights would bolt in.
3.Cleaned out a cheap set of used tails, sealed them up and put them back on.
4.Made a new under tray out of some spare aluminum sheet metal as the stock one was missing.
5. Fiddled around with the bumper alot to improve the fitment and its still pretty bad.
Still on the lookout for a new bumper though as the one on it is crap.
anyways on to the questions
1. Its got a few scratches and stuff I want to fix, none of my local autostores keep the paint in stock, velocity red, whats a good online resource to bu this from? Also does anybody have experiance with how well scratch repair paint matches these cars that are now 10 years old?
2. Flooding issues. I haven't looked up the deflooding procedure as I've always been able to restart it the few times it has done it within a minute by craning and switching between full and no throttle. Every time I've flooded it has been a cold shut off (start it to pull into the shop and shut off before it warms up). I haven't had a flooding issue with a hot shutoff though Is not warming up the car fully before shutoff that big of a mistake or is flooding after a cold shutoff an obvious sign of an issue (starter, ignition, compression)?
3. Rebuild question, now before you tear me apart I have tried searching and I know self rebuilds are not generally recommended. My question isn't can I rebuild my own engine...etc.
I'm more currious about the success rate of rebuilds, as in if you pulled a part a running engine with no glaringly obvious issues (as in a bit of idle hunt, flooded a couple times, slightly ruff idle, but no misfiring issues) does a full tear down, cleaning and reseal generally lead to better compression?
Last few weeks have been:
1.Picked up new: headlights, taillights, exhaust
2.Pulled off the bumper to straighten the front section so that the headlights would bolt in.
3.Cleaned out a cheap set of used tails, sealed them up and put them back on.
4.Made a new under tray out of some spare aluminum sheet metal as the stock one was missing.
5. Fiddled around with the bumper alot to improve the fitment and its still pretty bad.
Still on the lookout for a new bumper though as the one on it is crap.
anyways on to the questions
1. Its got a few scratches and stuff I want to fix, none of my local autostores keep the paint in stock, velocity red, whats a good online resource to bu this from? Also does anybody have experiance with how well scratch repair paint matches these cars that are now 10 years old?
2. Flooding issues. I haven't looked up the deflooding procedure as I've always been able to restart it the few times it has done it within a minute by craning and switching between full and no throttle. Every time I've flooded it has been a cold shut off (start it to pull into the shop and shut off before it warms up). I haven't had a flooding issue with a hot shutoff though Is not warming up the car fully before shutoff that big of a mistake or is flooding after a cold shutoff an obvious sign of an issue (starter, ignition, compression)?
3. Rebuild question, now before you tear me apart I have tried searching and I know self rebuilds are not generally recommended. My question isn't can I rebuild my own engine...etc.
I'm more currious about the success rate of rebuilds, as in if you pulled a part a running engine with no glaringly obvious issues (as in a bit of idle hunt, flooded a couple times, slightly ruff idle, but no misfiring issues) does a full tear down, cleaning and reseal generally lead to better compression?
03-29-2014, 11:21 AM
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40th anniversary Edition
Start reading all this here first, then ask any remaining questions.
https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...t-here-202454/
https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...t-here-202454/
03-29-2014, 11:33 AM
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Start reading all this here first, then ask any remaining questions.
https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...t-here-202454/
https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...t-here-202454/
03-29-2014, 11:40 AM
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Flooding is answered in it's own section: https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...4/#post4533697 (link jumps right to the section)
It doesn't cover bodywork advice or rebuild information, as neither are common new owner questions.
I can't answer the bodywork question, someone else might.
As far as rebuilding, EVERY rebuild is a complete teardown. Look at the engine components in this post in the new owner's thread: https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...4/#post4533720 (again, link jumps to the post). You can't remove any one piece of the engine without it automatically being a full teardown. Re-assembly of even a good compression engine with the same seals will almost certainly result in lower compression on the engine. Replacing all seals and gaskets with brand new is mandatory. Additionally, there is a laundry list of easily possible flaws in the irons, rotors, e-shaft, or housings which turn them into junk for a re-build, requiring new parts.
Low compression is certainly one cause of idle issues and flooding, however make sure you get a compression test before you start pulling apart the engine. Those problems can also be caused by a number of other very common failures that are a whole lot cheaper than rebuilding the engine.
It doesn't cover bodywork advice or rebuild information, as neither are common new owner questions.
I can't answer the bodywork question, someone else might.
As far as rebuilding, EVERY rebuild is a complete teardown. Look at the engine components in this post in the new owner's thread: https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...4/#post4533720 (again, link jumps to the post). You can't remove any one piece of the engine without it automatically being a full teardown. Re-assembly of even a good compression engine with the same seals will almost certainly result in lower compression on the engine. Replacing all seals and gaskets with brand new is mandatory. Additionally, there is a laundry list of easily possible flaws in the irons, rotors, e-shaft, or housings which turn them into junk for a re-build, requiring new parts.
Low compression is certainly one cause of idle issues and flooding, however make sure you get a compression test before you start pulling apart the engine. Those problems can also be caused by a number of other very common failures that are a whole lot cheaper than rebuilding the engine.
03-29-2014, 11:54 AM
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One way to find out if you have a bad apex seal is to shut it off warm and then let it sit for a minute or two then start it again. If it idles real weird like then that's your best bet. If a rotory is floaded too much the apex seal can't get enough lubrication due to the execs fuel. Fuel is not a lubricant. Hope I could be of assistance. Make sure its not a vacuum leak before you start a rebuild. And how many miles does it have?
03-29-2014, 12:01 PM
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1. Its got a few scratches and stuff I want to fix, none of my local autostores keep the paint in stock, velocity red, whats a good online resource to bu this from? Also does anybody have experiance with how well scratch repair paint matches these cars that are now 10 years old?
03-29-2014, 12:07 PM
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I know the specific components, i rebuilt my FD's engine a few years ago and it's survived years of hard driving and track days. I understand that all new seals are required. I'm wondering how often when a running engine is pulled apart are the rotors, housings and irons not reusable. I imagine most of the time people find issues with irons and rotors after a more catastrophic failure like a side seal or apex seal going around a few times.
What my chance of finding any housing, rotor, or endplate issues when pulling apart a perfectly running engine.
With flooding I was more wondering how much I was shooting my self in the foot with the cold shut off's. During warm up it obviously runs richer and I've heard this specifically can cause flooding.
I am somewhat smart but for some reason i lack any and all talent when it comes to putting my thought into words.
What my chance of finding any housing, rotor, or endplate issues when pulling apart a perfectly running engine.
With flooding I was more wondering how much I was shooting my self in the foot with the cold shut off's. During warm up it obviously runs richer and I've heard this specifically can cause flooding.
I am somewhat smart but for some reason i lack any and all talent when it comes to putting my thought into words.
03-29-2014, 12:21 PM
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The flooding is not caused by running richer at warmup. Flooding is caused by something failing and not having enough strength to ignite the fuel available when you attempt to start. Shutting down when cold simply leaves more fuel sitting in the housing than shutting down hot (due to that richer when warming up bit), which makes it much easier to flood if something else has already failed. A healthy Renesis engine with healthy ignition being cranked by a healthy starter powered by a healthy battery will fire up every time, even after cold shutdown. Flooding ONLY occurs if something else has already failed. If the flooding only happens on cold shutdown, all it means is that the degree of failure is enough to cause a flood there, but not quite failed enough to cause a flood on a warm shutdown.
Typically, I tend to discount compression as the biggest problem for flooding that is only happening on cold shutdown, since the engine compression will be worse on a hot shutdown (until it's cooled off again). Coils, plugs, and wires need to be changed every 30,000 miles, often earlier, and most new owners fail to really understand this. As a result, ignition failure is almost always the cause of flooding for new owners.
As a side note, OEM ignition that is 30,000 miles old but not yet misfiring has been dyno proven to sucking around 30whp from performance, as compared to brand new OEM ignition.
On the rebuild, disassembling a healthy engine will usually result in more reusable parts, and you are right that most rebuilds are after some sort of failure. Due to our side ports, broken seals from a catastrophic failure turn the entire engine into junk as they just keep shredding their way around and around without really leaving the engine. But we don't have boost, so that kind of catastrophic failure is far less common. The only common catastrophic failure that we see is from a cooling system failure, overheating the engine and warping housings. If the overheat is really slight and it manages to just bust a coolant seal, then most of the engine can be saved if torn down as soon as possible. Most rebuilds are just from simple worn metal, in which case close measurements are needed on the irons, housings, etc... to see if the wear is acceptable or not. According to some of the major reputible rebuilders here, typically by 80,000 miles it's rare that the housings can be reused, the irons can often be relapped and re-used. The rotors seal spring seats are often terminal past 100-120k, e-shaft bearings are all over the place, likely due to oil usage.
Typically, I tend to discount compression as the biggest problem for flooding that is only happening on cold shutdown, since the engine compression will be worse on a hot shutdown (until it's cooled off again). Coils, plugs, and wires need to be changed every 30,000 miles, often earlier, and most new owners fail to really understand this. As a result, ignition failure is almost always the cause of flooding for new owners.
As a side note, OEM ignition that is 30,000 miles old but not yet misfiring has been dyno proven to sucking around 30whp from performance, as compared to brand new OEM ignition.
On the rebuild, disassembling a healthy engine will usually result in more reusable parts, and you are right that most rebuilds are after some sort of failure. Due to our side ports, broken seals from a catastrophic failure turn the entire engine into junk as they just keep shredding their way around and around without really leaving the engine. But we don't have boost, so that kind of catastrophic failure is far less common. The only common catastrophic failure that we see is from a cooling system failure, overheating the engine and warping housings. If the overheat is really slight and it manages to just bust a coolant seal, then most of the engine can be saved if torn down as soon as possible. Most rebuilds are just from simple worn metal, in which case close measurements are needed on the irons, housings, etc... to see if the wear is acceptable or not. According to some of the major reputible rebuilders here, typically by 80,000 miles it's rare that the housings can be reused, the irons can often be relapped and re-used. The rotors seal spring seats are often terminal past 100-120k, e-shaft bearings are all over the place, likely due to oil usage.
03-29-2014, 12:33 PM
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The flooding is not caused by running richer at warmup. Flooding is caused by something failing and not having enough strength to ignite the fuel available when you attempt to start. Shutting down when cold simply leaves more fuel sitting in the housing than shutting down hot (due to that richer when warming up bit), which makes it much easier to flood if something else has already failed. A healthy Renesis engine with healthy ignition being cranked by a healthy starter powered by a healthy battery will fire up every time, even after cold shutdown. Flooding ONLY occurs if something else has already failed. If the flooding only happens on cold shutdown, all it means is that the degree of failure is enough to cause a flood there, but not quite failed enough to cause a flood on a warm shutdown.
Typically, I tend to discount compression as the biggest problem for flooding that is only happening on cold shutdown, since the engine compression will be worse on a hot shutdown (until it's cooled off again). Coils, plugs, and wires need to be changed every 30,000 miles, often earlier, and most new owners fail to really understand this. As a result, ignition failure is almost always the cause of flooding for new owners.
As a side note, OEM ignition that is 30,000 miles old but not yet misfiring has been dyno proven to sucking around 30whp from performance, as compared to brand new OEM ignition.
On the rebuild, disassembling a healthy engine will usually result in more reusable parts, and you are right that most rebuilds are after some sort of failure. Due to our side ports, broken seals from a catastrophic failure turn the entire engine into junk as they just keep shredding their way around and around without really leaving the engine. But we don't have boost, so that kind of catastrophic failure is far less common. The only common catastrophic failure that we see is from a cooling system failure, overheating the engine and warping housings. If the overheat is really slight and it manages to just bust a coolant seal, then most of the engine can be saved if torn down as soon as possible. Most rebuilds are just from simple worn metal, in which case close measurements are needed on the irons, housings, etc... to see if the wear is acceptable or not. According to some of the major reputible rebuilders here, typically by 80,000 miles it's rare that the housings can be reused, the irons can often be relapped and re-used. The rotors seal spring seats are often terminal past 100-120k, e-shaft bearings are all over the place, likely due to oil usage.
Typically, I tend to discount compression as the biggest problem for flooding that is only happening on cold shutdown, since the engine compression will be worse on a hot shutdown (until it's cooled off again). Coils, plugs, and wires need to be changed every 30,000 miles, often earlier, and most new owners fail to really understand this. As a result, ignition failure is almost always the cause of flooding for new owners.
As a side note, OEM ignition that is 30,000 miles old but not yet misfiring has been dyno proven to sucking around 30whp from performance, as compared to brand new OEM ignition.
On the rebuild, disassembling a healthy engine will usually result in more reusable parts, and you are right that most rebuilds are after some sort of failure. Due to our side ports, broken seals from a catastrophic failure turn the entire engine into junk as they just keep shredding their way around and around without really leaving the engine. But we don't have boost, so that kind of catastrophic failure is far less common. The only common catastrophic failure that we see is from a cooling system failure, overheating the engine and warping housings. If the overheat is really slight and it manages to just bust a coolant seal, then most of the engine can be saved if torn down as soon as possible. Most rebuilds are just from simple worn metal, in which case close measurements are needed on the irons, housings, etc... to see if the wear is acceptable or not. According to some of the major reputible rebuilders here, typically by 80,000 miles it's rare that the housings can be reused, the irons can often be relapped and re-used. The rotors seal spring seats are often terminal past 100-120k, e-shaft bearings are all over the place, likely due to oil usage.
I would have thought compression would have been worse on a cold start than hot start. I thought the best compression came from these engines while they were at operating temp.
I might have to look into non compression related failures in that case, the previous owner supposedly changed the ignition components and starter, but the longer I've worked on the car the less i trust his word. I'm calling mileage unknown as the console says 45000km but its in a bit ruff shape for that low of mileage.
I was hoping the individual engine components generally lasted longer than that, I know my FD engine at 110000km looked immaculate besides lots of carbon buildup.
Thanks for the answers. I think I'll just drive the car for a couple fuel tanks to make sure these are infact reoccurring issues.
Unrelated how is resale value of slightly used BHR parts? I'm considering their ignition and midpipe?
03-29-2014, 12:40 PM
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Correct, your information about the Renesis is wrong. When hot, there is noticeably less compression than when cold. One of the hallmark signs of a failing engine is a significantly longer (or impossible) hot start when cold start is fine.
BHR stuff holds really high resale value. Their ignition kits tend to fetch $350-$400 even 20k-30k miles later. The midpipe drops off a bit faster, but still really good. I got ~55% of my original purchase price when I sold my BHR midpipe with 55,000 miles on it. No RX-8 vendor can match BHR products for quality and longevity, and the resale values prove it constantly. It's isn't fanboi-ism. Most vendors here are re-sellers, even the really good vendors. Only a few that actually design products and put them into production, and with the exception of BHR, they tend to be either poor quality manufacturing or have personal integrity issues (or both). No one with the skills AND honesty is stepping up to compete with BHR or complement BHR's stuff. It's a shame really.
BHR stuff holds really high resale value. Their ignition kits tend to fetch $350-$400 even 20k-30k miles later. The midpipe drops off a bit faster, but still really good. I got ~55% of my original purchase price when I sold my BHR midpipe with 55,000 miles on it. No RX-8 vendor can match BHR products for quality and longevity, and the resale values prove it constantly. It's isn't fanboi-ism. Most vendors here are re-sellers, even the really good vendors. Only a few that actually design products and put them into production, and with the exception of BHR, they tend to be either poor quality manufacturing or have personal integrity issues (or both). No one with the skills AND honesty is stepping up to compete with BHR or complement BHR's stuff. It's a shame really.
03-29-2014, 12:51 PM
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Correct, your information about the Renesis is wrong. When hot, there is noticeably less compression than when cold. One of the hallmark signs of a failing engine is a significantly longer (or impossible) hot start when cold start is fine.
BHR stuff holds really high resale value. Their ignition kits tend to fetch $350-$400 even 20k-30k miles later. The midpipe drops off a bit faster, but still really good. I got ~55% of my original purchase price when I sold my BHR midpipe with 55,000 miles on it. No RX-8 vendor can match BHR products for quality and longevity, and the resale values prove it constantly. It's isn't fanboi-ism. Most vendors here are re-sellers, even the really good vendors. Only a few that actually design products and put them into production, and with the exception of BHR, they tend to be either poor quality manufacturing or have personal integrity issues (or both). No one with the skills AND honesty is stepping up to compete with BHR or complement BHR's stuff. It's a shame really.
BHR stuff holds really high resale value. Their ignition kits tend to fetch $350-$400 even 20k-30k miles later. The midpipe drops off a bit faster, but still really good. I got ~55% of my original purchase price when I sold my BHR midpipe with 55,000 miles on it. No RX-8 vendor can match BHR products for quality and longevity, and the resale values prove it constantly. It's isn't fanboi-ism. Most vendors here are re-sellers, even the really good vendors. Only a few that actually design products and put them into production, and with the exception of BHR, they tend to be either poor quality manufacturing or have personal integrity issues (or both). No one with the skills AND honesty is stepping up to compete with BHR or complement BHR's stuff. It's a shame really.
If I have no issues in the next few tanks I'll look into ordering some of BHR's stuff.
Thanks for all the help and the quick responses.
03-29-2014, 01:25 PM
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Yeah, forged pistons or iron ones will expand with the heat a bit more than the block expands, so they end up sealing better. With the rotary, the housings expand more than the rotors do, so the results are reversed.
04-05-2014, 11:52 PM
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I see what you mean, now that I've got a few days of driving on the rx8 I've noticed it needs a few more cranks when warm and doesn't jump to life quite the same. I'm guessing hard starting while warm is a pretty good indication that my engine doesn't have spectacular compression.
Another question. I've noticed that at idle sometimes there is alot of vibration that only occurs at the lowest rpm idle. sometimes it will take its time hunting down to idle, like it will stop at 1000(smooth as glass) slowly decrease to 900 or so (still smooth as glass), then it will settle out and bam vibration, at 850 or so. the vibration can be felt in the car, through the floor seat etc. is this pooched motor mounts and at a certain frequency its just much worse? or is it possible one face is misfiring or something? No CEL so the ECU isn't detecting a misfire.
Another question. I've noticed that at idle sometimes there is alot of vibration that only occurs at the lowest rpm idle. sometimes it will take its time hunting down to idle, like it will stop at 1000(smooth as glass) slowly decrease to 900 or so (still smooth as glass), then it will settle out and bam vibration, at 850 or so. the vibration can be felt in the car, through the floor seat etc. is this pooched motor mounts and at a certain frequency its just much worse? or is it possible one face is misfiring or something? No CEL so the ECU isn't detecting a misfire.
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