Low Compression Advice
#1
Low Compression Advice
Hi folks,
I bought my RX-8 privately from a pregnant couple - so a pretty legit sale. I've been using this forum a lot for hints and tips about the RX-8; very useful - thanks.
My details: 2007, Kuro 231bhp, 45000 miles.
I took mine to a dealership as the engine management light came on. After they gave me a quote for £2,400 for 4 new coils and cat (inclusive of parts, labour and VAT), I said thanks but no thanks, and am getting these bits repaired by my local garage (mechanics) at a cost of £900 inclusive - go figure.
The compression rates were coming in as follows:
Rotor 1: 6.7 @ 250rpm
Rotor 2: 6.5 @ 250rpm
From reading previous threads, I can see that compression ought to be around 8. The dealership said that these parts replaced may/may not improve compression. Can anyone offer any useful advice?
Also, does the 8 year (100,000 miles) warranty on engines still exist?
Many Thanks,
azakhami
I bought my RX-8 privately from a pregnant couple - so a pretty legit sale. I've been using this forum a lot for hints and tips about the RX-8; very useful - thanks.
My details: 2007, Kuro 231bhp, 45000 miles.
I took mine to a dealership as the engine management light came on. After they gave me a quote for £2,400 for 4 new coils and cat (inclusive of parts, labour and VAT), I said thanks but no thanks, and am getting these bits repaired by my local garage (mechanics) at a cost of £900 inclusive - go figure.
The compression rates were coming in as follows:
Rotor 1: 6.7 @ 250rpm
Rotor 2: 6.5 @ 250rpm
From reading previous threads, I can see that compression ought to be around 8. The dealership said that these parts replaced may/may not improve compression. Can anyone offer any useful advice?
Also, does the 8 year (100,000 miles) warranty on engines still exist?
Many Thanks,
azakhami
#4
new owner's thread:
https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...t-here-202454/
https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...t-here-202454/
So I need a compression test right?
Yes. And it can not be done with a standard analog compression tester for piston engines. A typical cheap analog tester just plugs into a spark plug port and as the engine cranks, the needle moves, and you can easily see where it's swinging to every compression stroke. 1 spark plug, 1 cylinder, 1 compression number.
The rotary however is 1 spark plug, 3 rotor cavities, 3 compression numbers per revolution. There is no way for a simple analog tester to record each face of the rotor independently as it spins, updating each number correctly as it compresses.
Piston engines also have relatively the same compression number regardless of how fast the engine is pumping. If there is a loss of compression due to a seal or whatever, there will be some loss as it compresses, and a slower RPM will read slightly less as it allows slightly more time to leak. Rotary engines have plenty of 'gaps', and there is a very real and measurable difference in compression depending on engine cranking speed. The faster it spins the higher the compression. You can even remove the apex seals completely, and it gets enough compression at 9,000rpm to stay alive, though not much below that it won't. (incidentally, this is an often over-looked dynamic of how the engine produces it's power curve, and how it doesn't have severe drop-off in power the higher you go in RPM the way piston engines do, and one of the reasons low rpm torque is so poor. Not the only reason, but a contributing factor). So, in addition to the 2 sets of 3 numbers for each of the 3 faces of each of the 2 rotors, you need the crank RPM for the test. A normalization chart based on RPM determines if you are pass or fail.
Official normalization calculator. This exactly matches the calculator in the Mazda dealer network: Foxed.ca - Rotary Compression Calculator
Many dealers also obtain a BARO voltage reading test to determine vacuum as another method of determining pass or fail. Vacuum is related to compression, but it isn't the same thing, and is possible for them to differ more than expected. There have been quite a few reports of Mazda techs returning BARO numbers that clearly fail and stating that they pass, so if it fails compression but passes vacuum, I'd question the techs quite a bit about making sure they did it right.
If anyone comes across the testing proceedure for this test, please PM me, I'd love to link it
Only Mazda dealers will be able to do a compression test, unless you happen to live near one of the bare handful of non-Mazda owned rotary compression testers.
Your best bet is to simply ask the dealer if you can take it to get a compression test. If they decline, they ask if they can do it. If they still decline, then they probably have something to hide and you should immediately cross that 8 off your list, no matter how much surface appeal it has.
No reputable dealer will object to having one of their cars checked over by a 3rd party, ESPECIALLY when it's a particular check that only Mazda dealers can do. A129 million point inspection means nothing if they don't have a rotary compression tester to check the most critical part. Or convince them to cover the engine with an extended warranty on THEIR dime. "Hey, if you can't check the engine, I'm taking a risk buying it, and you need to cover it in case I'm buying a time bomb."
Yes. And it can not be done with a standard analog compression tester for piston engines. A typical cheap analog tester just plugs into a spark plug port and as the engine cranks, the needle moves, and you can easily see where it's swinging to every compression stroke. 1 spark plug, 1 cylinder, 1 compression number.
The rotary however is 1 spark plug, 3 rotor cavities, 3 compression numbers per revolution. There is no way for a simple analog tester to record each face of the rotor independently as it spins, updating each number correctly as it compresses.
Piston engines also have relatively the same compression number regardless of how fast the engine is pumping. If there is a loss of compression due to a seal or whatever, there will be some loss as it compresses, and a slower RPM will read slightly less as it allows slightly more time to leak. Rotary engines have plenty of 'gaps', and there is a very real and measurable difference in compression depending on engine cranking speed. The faster it spins the higher the compression. You can even remove the apex seals completely, and it gets enough compression at 9,000rpm to stay alive, though not much below that it won't. (incidentally, this is an often over-looked dynamic of how the engine produces it's power curve, and how it doesn't have severe drop-off in power the higher you go in RPM the way piston engines do, and one of the reasons low rpm torque is so poor. Not the only reason, but a contributing factor). So, in addition to the 2 sets of 3 numbers for each of the 3 faces of each of the 2 rotors, you need the crank RPM for the test. A normalization chart based on RPM determines if you are pass or fail.
Official normalization calculator. This exactly matches the calculator in the Mazda dealer network: Foxed.ca - Rotary Compression Calculator
Many dealers also obtain a BARO voltage reading test to determine vacuum as another method of determining pass or fail. Vacuum is related to compression, but it isn't the same thing, and is possible for them to differ more than expected. There have been quite a few reports of Mazda techs returning BARO numbers that clearly fail and stating that they pass, so if it fails compression but passes vacuum, I'd question the techs quite a bit about making sure they did it right.
If anyone comes across the testing proceedure for this test, please PM me, I'd love to link it
Originally Posted by omgitsdomie
1. While i've been searching around for rx8's there are some at different dealers. EX: an rx8 at a Nissan dealer. How would you go about asking to get a compression test since usually most dealers wont let you take a car somewhere without a representative, and usually they only go with you only for test drives, and test drives only?
Your best bet is to simply ask the dealer if you can take it to get a compression test. If they decline, they ask if they can do it. If they still decline, then they probably have something to hide and you should immediately cross that 8 off your list, no matter how much surface appeal it has.
No reputable dealer will object to having one of their cars checked over by a 3rd party, ESPECIALLY when it's a particular check that only Mazda dealers can do. A129 million point inspection means nothing if they don't have a rotary compression tester to check the most critical part. Or convince them to cover the engine with an extended warranty on THEIR dime. "Hey, if you can't check the engine, I'm taking a risk buying it, and you need to cover it in case I'm buying a time bomb."
#5
There were three readings on a test sheet, which I was shown but didn't receive. These were all consistent (biggest difference was 6.5 and 6.8).
Excuse my ignorance, but are my compression levels ok or not?
Thanks!
Thanks!
#6
They are passing, but are not healthy. You will likely start to see symptoms of low compression within the next 10,000-20,000 miles at a guess. Health is mid 7s, great is into the 8s. 6.5 is only 0.6 off of failing.
#7
Is that graph representative of the Renesis engine? I thought the compression spec numbers were higher for the RX-8 : https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...5/#post4469520
FWIW, I know my compression numbers are in the low 90s / mid-high 80s (psi), but I haven't experienced any issues thus far.
FWIW, I know my compression numbers are in the low 90s / mid-high 80s (psi), but I haven't experienced any issues thus far.
Last edited by maskedferret; 05-28-2013 at 01:48 PM.
#8
That is the graph out of the factory service manual for dealers for the series 1 RX-8.
Opinion may vary, and yes there are other graphs out there, but that graph is the one that dealers will be using officially, so that is the one that matters.
Opinion may vary, and yes there are other graphs out there, but that graph is the one that dealers will be using officially, so that is the one that matters.
#9
So fixing the coils and cat will help to put less stress on my engine, but not improve the compression?
#10
Registered
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 12,255
Likes: 7
From: Buddhist Monastery, High Himalaya Mtns. of Tibet
Compression has to do with the ability of the engine to compress air. The ignition system would have nothing to do with compression numbers. Compression is measured with the ignition system disabled.
The compression is due to the seals contacting the sides of the rotor housing. Just as a piston engine's rings seal against the cylinder wall.
The compression is due to the seals contacting the sides of the rotor housing. Just as a piston engine's rings seal against the cylinder wall.
#11
On top of what Al says, the various failure points all work together, so a low compression engine on failing coils will have more power loss than a low compression engine on good coils. If you are having a hard time starting, bringing everything else other than compression up to top shape will help mask the low compression for a while. Just examples.
#13
That starter is nuts!
That's the highest test RPM I've ever seen.
That being said, your compression readings normalize to the low 6s at sea level. You would pass a compression test, but your engine is on the decline. With that starter, you wouldn't see starting problems for a very long time though. Just general loss of power.
That's the highest test RPM I've ever seen.
That being said, your compression readings normalize to the low 6s at sea level. You would pass a compression test, but your engine is on the decline. With that starter, you wouldn't see starting problems for a very long time though. Just general loss of power.
#15
Yes, the service manager is correct with "it's fine", if the only scale he is measuring by is:
A) it's dead
B) it's fine
You probably have 10,000-20,000 miles left in that engine at a guess.
A) it's dead
B) it's fine
You probably have 10,000-20,000 miles left in that engine at a guess.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
dbarber
Series I Trouble Shooting
14
07-25-2015 01:34 PM