Renesis Swap in a JDM RX-7 is realistic....but worth it?
07-12-2016, 07:01 AM
#1
New Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ehime
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Renesis Swap in a JDM RX-7 is realistic....but worth it?
I would like to stay long story short, but I don't think that I will wind up being brief.
I live in Japan, but I expect to return to the US in 2 years. Skool teechur.
I am lucky, but I have occasionally had access to salvage 20b engines for less than $4000. Never bought one because I'm not a "rotary" guy. I am a FD RX7 guy. Initially, I wanted to do a LS swap, but the money is what it is for that. If I lived in the US and had no connections here in Japan, a 20b swap would be just as economically unfeasible. I have also had access to FD RX7s with blown engines selling for less than $3000.
I think people can see where my thinking is going if you also know how little Renesis complete engines with 6-speed manual transmissions sell for in the US.
With the 25 year rule, 1991 and up FD RX7s will be exempt right now or very soon depending on the month of manufacture. The costs for a US FD RX7 are still way too high compared to here in Japan. So, getting a FD RX7 with a blown engine and shipping it to the US to my brother's garage to sit is still cheaper than buying in the US. I could get a 20B and maybe this is the inevitable way to go.
However, I've been researching the Renesis engine and so much speculation can be found from 10 years ago and a lot of big talk and dreams posts since then. Lots of hate on the Renesis engine as well. I don't know the justification if there is a justification. But, when I find complete engine/tranny dropouts in the US for less than $1600, this gets my attention.
Not looking for the baddest car out there because I've ridden in cars on the Shuto Expressway that any sane person would not want as a daily driver. 300hp at the crank is good enough for a 2 rotor. Turbo is not preferred. NA with ITBs seems the way to go as far as I can tell. Crazy porting is good for race cars and everybody wants a 4 rotor for a 2 rotor price.
So, even with the massive cost savings of buying a Renesis in the US, will the $2000+ I can save over a 20B simply vanish to moment that I have the engine tuned because it just cannot make power even in 2016 and if it does, it'll blow up?
I know money cures all, but I also know that big name shops like RE Amemiya are not the only rotary tuners in Japan. Smaller qualified shops looking to make a name can do equal work for far less money. True for all cars here in Japan (had a shop in Tokyo quote me $30,000USD to turbo a Suzuki M16 engine when even Monster Sport would not charge near that). Can 300hp reliable NA power be had without having to spend the same amount of money to get a Koenigsegg?
Yes, the force is strong with this noob. I'm coming from a Nissan and Suzuki background, so my rotary knowledge is limited - fact or rumor is hard to split without having a lot of experience.
I live in Japan, but I expect to return to the US in 2 years. Skool teechur.
I am lucky, but I have occasionally had access to salvage 20b engines for less than $4000. Never bought one because I'm not a "rotary" guy. I am a FD RX7 guy. Initially, I wanted to do a LS swap, but the money is what it is for that. If I lived in the US and had no connections here in Japan, a 20b swap would be just as economically unfeasible. I have also had access to FD RX7s with blown engines selling for less than $3000.
I think people can see where my thinking is going if you also know how little Renesis complete engines with 6-speed manual transmissions sell for in the US.
With the 25 year rule, 1991 and up FD RX7s will be exempt right now or very soon depending on the month of manufacture. The costs for a US FD RX7 are still way too high compared to here in Japan. So, getting a FD RX7 with a blown engine and shipping it to the US to my brother's garage to sit is still cheaper than buying in the US. I could get a 20B and maybe this is the inevitable way to go.
However, I've been researching the Renesis engine and so much speculation can be found from 10 years ago and a lot of big talk and dreams posts since then. Lots of hate on the Renesis engine as well. I don't know the justification if there is a justification. But, when I find complete engine/tranny dropouts in the US for less than $1600, this gets my attention.
Not looking for the baddest car out there because I've ridden in cars on the Shuto Expressway that any sane person would not want as a daily driver. 300hp at the crank is good enough for a 2 rotor. Turbo is not preferred. NA with ITBs seems the way to go as far as I can tell. Crazy porting is good for race cars and everybody wants a 4 rotor for a 2 rotor price.
So, even with the massive cost savings of buying a Renesis in the US, will the $2000+ I can save over a 20B simply vanish to moment that I have the engine tuned because it just cannot make power even in 2016 and if it does, it'll blow up?
I know money cures all, but I also know that big name shops like RE Amemiya are not the only rotary tuners in Japan. Smaller qualified shops looking to make a name can do equal work for far less money. True for all cars here in Japan (had a shop in Tokyo quote me $30,000USD to turbo a Suzuki M16 engine when even Monster Sport would not charge near that). Can 300hp reliable NA power be had without having to spend the same amount of money to get a Koenigsegg?
Yes, the force is strong with this noob. I'm coming from a Nissan and Suzuki background, so my rotary knowledge is limited - fact or rumor is hard to split without having a lot of experience.
07-12-2016, 08:24 AM
#2
FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC
iTrader: (9)
im confused. are you wanting to put a renny in an fd? that is gonna cost a lot because of the computer stuff with the renny and you arent going to get 300hp out of it without f/i. if you are on a budget ship an fd back with a blown engine, get it rebuilt and lose the twin turbos and the vac hose rats nest that goes with them, get a propper size snail and enjoy your car
07-12-2016, 09:38 AM
#3
New Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ehime
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
im confused. are you wanting to put a renny in an fd? that is gonna cost a lot because of the computer stuff with the renny and you arent going to get 300hp out of it without f/i. if you are on a budget ship an fd back with a blown engine, get it rebuilt and lose the twin turbos and the vac hose rats nest that goes with them, get a propper size snail and enjoy your car
Find a cheap FD RX7 is quite realistic (same with a RX8 but with the 25 year rule and your personal state of registration - well, you may be able to get a RHD RX8 no problem, or you might get it crushed) here in Japan and finding in the US cheap Renesis dropouts engine/6-speed/ecu harness has been shockingly easy. $1500-$1600 for a complete Renesis means that I had to look into the feasibility of getting one.
Even with some work, $2000 would put me at a bone stock 20b with no ecu or tranny. Although I would start with less power with the Renesis, would the complete package and the low cost actually put me ahead? Is 300hp streetable power even possible in NA form? Are there turbo systems that can make 300hp (wheel?) without blowing up the apex seals?
It just seemed like going with a newer Renesis would be a potential good idea. Newer is better and more reliable...right?
Mybe, I should just be patient and look to take on someone else's 20b after they take the economic hit. EST Fukuyama is not far from my wife's family where I spend the summer.
Just seeing what options that I have....and don't have. I've read so much bile against the Renesis by 13b and 20b guys, but A lot is more than 8-10 years old. There was a time when swapping an LS engine into anything was not economically feasible, but now its common. Has the Renesis become an overlooked gem, or is it still never going to be a decent NA or even lightly turboed option?
07-12-2016, 10:19 AM
#4
FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC
iTrader: (9)
the renny is the highest hp n/a rotary offered (besides race engines) its a good engine but to make it work in an fd will be hard and pricey as will a 20b. the renny wont make 300hp without a turbo or s/c. your best bet is to rebuild the fd motor as far as price and ease of the project
07-12-2016, 08:22 PM
#7
You can buy REW engines for the same price as Renesis engines.... and a used engine..especially a rotary is a crap shoot. Best to rebuild the one you have...might need a few parts but likely still has some good stuff inside if it is an unmolested FD
I built a single turbo FD for my son that uses stock injectors and an ebay single turbo manifold and WaterMeth and makes 400+ to the rear wheels. You can get an aftermarket ECU and harness that way you don't have to try and make a 20+ year old engine harness. The manifolds will last about 2-3 years at that power level before they burn out or crack...and then you buy another one
That would be way easier than trying to get a Renesis working in a FD. The engines are much higher than a REW and it wouldn't be an easy fit
I built a single turbo FD for my son that uses stock injectors and an ebay single turbo manifold and WaterMeth and makes 400+ to the rear wheels. You can get an aftermarket ECU and harness that way you don't have to try and make a 20+ year old engine harness. The manifolds will last about 2-3 years at that power level before they burn out or crack...and then you buy another one
That would be way easier than trying to get a Renesis working in a FD. The engines are much higher than a REW and it wouldn't be an easy fit
07-12-2016, 11:37 PM
#9
Registered
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Carson City, NV
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without spending major money I doubt you'd get 300 crank hp out of a Renesis (well, short of bolting on a third chamber that is). And you'll end up with a race engine that's likely to be almost undriveable on the road.
Having owned an early FD a few years back I'd suggest to stick with the turbos, get a rebuild with a mild street port and you should already be close to your 300bhp goal as long as you have the appropriate supporting mods (engine management - get something like an Apex'i because the car will have to be remapped over here for the different fuel - and the usual cooling and intercooler upgrades).
Oh, and don't put the intake behind the radiator, especially if you're using an aftermarket intake.
Having owned an early FD a few years back I'd suggest to stick with the turbos, get a rebuild with a mild street port and you should already be close to your 300bhp goal as long as you have the appropriate supporting mods (engine management - get something like an Apex'i because the car will have to be remapped over here for the different fuel - and the usual cooling and intercooler upgrades).
Oh, and don't put the intake behind the radiator, especially if you're using an aftermarket intake.
07-13-2016, 07:09 AM
#10
New Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ehime
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is what I was thinking it appeared to be, but when starting with $2000 less and complete wiring and 6-speed, how much of a downgrade can it really be?
From my readings posted a few years ago, the Renesis is a "crap" engine with no hope at all. Being 2016, I am hesitant to think nothing has been developed. After all, $2000 can get a lot done. However, Gravey suggests that the dropouts that I have found online may be about to grenade themselves. Perhaps, but $1400-$1600 seem to be the going rate for dropouts in the US. $3500 is the ballpark going rate for a bone stock 20b.
Maybe I should just source a 20B here and be done with it. I've read that getting rid of the turbos and wiring the engine for use in the US is a nightmare - and this is why I was initially attracted to a Renesis dropout. I was thinking it being newer that it would be better.
Racing Beat told me that articles mentioning that the Furai "Renesis" engine was just marketing, so my interest just plummeted anyway. I've seen and heard two different 4-rotor FD RX7s (one at Tsukuba and the other at the Tokyo Auto Salon) and I admit that these are what piqued my interest in finally going after a rotary. I've read soooooooo much negative, but if you hear a NA rotary, just wow! And, I hate turbo lag and I'm not in drag racing. I like touge and visiting the Gunsai a few times.....Initial D roads are actually all over Japan not just in Gunma.
My wife is not far from EST Fukuyama and although I've never stopped there, I may just have to give them a visit. Maybe, its just best to be patient and buy someone else's engine. Its not uncommon for enthusiasts to upgrade to other engines for no reason other than to do so. Not all "salvage" engines are blown. Some are just out of wrecked drift cars or from someone who just wants to get some money back for his next project. An NA 20b for the street seems a sweet way to go.
The Furai was reported to have 450hp and for the real world on the street, this more than enough.
Sure, everyone wants a 26b:
but the reality of mega power cars on real roads is not a video game. Never ridden in the above car, but I have been in some 800hp+ GTRs on the Shuto and no, 400hp to 450hp is way more than adequate. I guess that the Renesis is just not capable of giving this in NA or even reliable non-laggy turbo power?
Have I just wasted everyone's time? Thank you to all the replies and input though.
From my readings posted a few years ago, the Renesis is a "crap" engine with no hope at all. Being 2016, I am hesitant to think nothing has been developed. After all, $2000 can get a lot done. However, Gravey suggests that the dropouts that I have found online may be about to grenade themselves. Perhaps, but $1400-$1600 seem to be the going rate for dropouts in the US. $3500 is the ballpark going rate for a bone stock 20b.
Maybe I should just source a 20B here and be done with it. I've read that getting rid of the turbos and wiring the engine for use in the US is a nightmare - and this is why I was initially attracted to a Renesis dropout. I was thinking it being newer that it would be better.
Racing Beat told me that articles mentioning that the Furai "Renesis" engine was just marketing, so my interest just plummeted anyway. I've seen and heard two different 4-rotor FD RX7s (one at Tsukuba and the other at the Tokyo Auto Salon) and I admit that these are what piqued my interest in finally going after a rotary. I've read soooooooo much negative, but if you hear a NA rotary, just wow! And, I hate turbo lag and I'm not in drag racing. I like touge and visiting the Gunsai a few times.....Initial D roads are actually all over Japan not just in Gunma.
My wife is not far from EST Fukuyama and although I've never stopped there, I may just have to give them a visit. Maybe, its just best to be patient and buy someone else's engine. Its not uncommon for enthusiasts to upgrade to other engines for no reason other than to do so. Not all "salvage" engines are blown. Some are just out of wrecked drift cars or from someone who just wants to get some money back for his next project. An NA 20b for the street seems a sweet way to go.
The Furai was reported to have 450hp and for the real world on the street, this more than enough.
Sure, everyone wants a 26b:
but the reality of mega power cars on real roads is not a video game. Never ridden in the above car, but I have been in some 800hp+ GTRs on the Shuto and no, 400hp to 450hp is way more than adequate. I guess that the Renesis is just not capable of giving this in NA or even reliable non-laggy turbo power?
Have I just wasted everyone's time? Thank you to all the replies and input though.
Last edited by noturbolag; 07-13-2016 at 07:14 AM.
07-13-2016, 09:37 AM
#11
Registered
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Carson City, NV
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I personally don't think the Renesis is a crap engine, but I *do* think that you're trying to pick the Renesis for the wrong reasons. Namely, you see how much cheaper the bare engine is without considering the cost of a) getting it up to your power goal (which is going to be hard, aka expensive, with the Renesis) and b) the cost of all the custom work needed to get the thing to work in an FD without it being a total mess.
Let's say the cost of a Renesis is $2000 less than the cost of a nice, street ported or even stock FD 13B (which already has more power stock than the Renesis). Let's even assume that it comes with the Renesis ECU because the FD ECU can't run a Renesis properly.
Knowing a thing or five about electronics and computers, I can pretty much guarantee you that just the custom electronic work to get the stock Renesis engine running on a stock ECU (ie, the simplest possible case) is going to eat up the majority of those $2k in custom wiring, instrument conversion work and all that jazz. Most likely more if pay someone who knows what they're doing.
Keep in mind that's just to get the thing going. I also don't think that the mounting points for the REW and the Renesis are the same so you're talking custom mounts as well. Then you can hope you don't need bodywork and/or a custom header to get the exhaust side covered and that it does match up to the FD's five speed (or that the RX8s six speed is a drop in replacement which I don't think it is), plus you probably need to change the diff ratio to accommodate the different power band the Renesis has. The custom exhaust you need at that point is just peanuts...
So at that point my educated guess is that you're probably between $5k-$10k into custom work and parts if you can do some of the work yourself.
Or you could just cruise the Wangan in an FD with a nicely built turbo engine by someone who knows what they're doing and have more than enough money left over for the tolls
.
Let's say the cost of a Renesis is $2000 less than the cost of a nice, street ported or even stock FD 13B (which already has more power stock than the Renesis). Let's even assume that it comes with the Renesis ECU because the FD ECU can't run a Renesis properly.
Knowing a thing or five about electronics and computers, I can pretty much guarantee you that just the custom electronic work to get the stock Renesis engine running on a stock ECU (ie, the simplest possible case) is going to eat up the majority of those $2k in custom wiring, instrument conversion work and all that jazz. Most likely more if pay someone who knows what they're doing.
Keep in mind that's just to get the thing going. I also don't think that the mounting points for the REW and the Renesis are the same so you're talking custom mounts as well. Then you can hope you don't need bodywork and/or a custom header to get the exhaust side covered and that it does match up to the FD's five speed (or that the RX8s six speed is a drop in replacement which I don't think it is), plus you probably need to change the diff ratio to accommodate the different power band the Renesis has. The custom exhaust you need at that point is just peanuts...
So at that point my educated guess is that you're probably between $5k-$10k into custom work and parts if you can do some of the work yourself.
Or you could just cruise the Wangan in an FD with a nicely built turbo engine by someone who knows what they're doing and have more than enough money left over for the tolls
.
07-14-2016, 06:45 PM
#12
New Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ehime
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all the replies. This is the beauty of the benefits of the internet. I can research without having to waste a lot of time and money with trial and error. It looks like I was trying to be penny wise but pound foolish in regards to tuning the Renesis.
I would not call it a 'crap' engine either, but so many posts from 2005 on (that I have seen) are full on Haterade. For ultimate performance, the Renesis may not be the best choice, but then it was not designed for ultimate performance to begin with.
May way forward is much clearer now.
I would not call it a 'crap' engine either, but so many posts from 2005 on (that I have seen) are full on Haterade. For ultimate performance, the Renesis may not be the best choice, but then it was not designed for ultimate performance to begin with.
May way forward is much clearer now.
07-14-2016, 08:41 PM
#13
$2000 doesn't get dick all finished. That's less than my turbo costs. You'll be into it for way more money than that by the time you're done getting that piece of junk into the car.
Serisously the Renesis has nowhere near the power potential of a 13b-REW. It's why you see them getting swapped into RX-8's. Not the other way around.
Serisously the Renesis has nowhere near the power potential of a 13b-REW. It's why you see them getting swapped into RX-8's. Not the other way around.
07-14-2016, 09:21 PM
#14
Took me .............years and many $ to get to where I am now though .
I would say it's not such a bad path to take if you were talking about buying an 8 . But you are talking about a 7 and the path to reliable 400+whp is well and truly established and repeatable . So it would be ludicrous to fit a renesis into a 7 and then try for decent power.
07-15-2016, 05:03 AM
#15
New Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ehime
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would not be proud of this. Anyone who has to pay $2000 for a turbo kit doesn't know anyone or how to be creative. Although I live in Japan, I'm not special in having connections, but I made certain to cultivate relationships and never pay retail. Let someone else take the hit in the wallet and the guardrail. Granted, my connetions have all been Nissan or Suzuki focused, but from what I've seen JDM engines going for in the US, I can ship a car from Tokyo to the US for $500 so I know the markup is ridiculous. I'd rather save money. JDM prices in the US are just....wow.
which is why I've learned that newer is not always better.Now, a VH is better than a VG. A SR20VET is better than a SR20DET. A M16 is better than a G13. But, as for rotaries, newer is not better. The Furai is an anomaly that used a lot of 20b parts and Renesis marketing, so I may as well utilize what I can here in Japan since that is what Racing Beat essentially said as well. Again, the beauty of the internet allows information to be spread without the loss of a lot of money....and my sincere thanks to everyone who provided guidance in helping me not waste time and money.
Serisously the Renesis has nowhere near the power potential of a 13b-REW. It's why you see them getting swapped into RX-8's. Not the other way around.
which is why I've learned that newer is not always better.Now, a VH is better than a VG. A SR20VET is better than a SR20DET. A M16 is better than a G13. But, as for rotaries, newer is not better. The Furai is an anomaly that used a lot of 20b parts and Renesis marketing, so I may as well utilize what I can here in Japan since that is what Racing Beat essentially said as well. Again, the beauty of the internet allows information to be spread without the loss of a lot of money....and my sincere thanks to everyone who provided guidance in helping me not waste time and money.
Last edited by noturbolag; 07-15-2016 at 05:11 AM.
07-20-2016, 06:54 PM
#16
Lol @ the "you shouldn't be proud of that" comment.
Also that's not the cost of a turbo kit. It's literally the turbo. By itself. Nothing else included. Shop around in the 67mm+ sizes for the good ones and maybe you will see what I mean. It has nothing to do with knowing people or being creative, almost a little insulting but I'll forgive you since it seems like you've never looked at how much things like this cost. Also nothing to do with "JDM mark up" since it was made in the USA. If you want to go fast it costs money. It always comes down to the same thing. Cost, reliability, performance. Pick two.
BorgWarner EFR 9180 Turbo - Full-Race.com
Also that's not the cost of a turbo kit. It's literally the turbo. By itself. Nothing else included. Shop around in the 67mm+ sizes for the good ones and maybe you will see what I mean. It has nothing to do with knowing people or being creative, almost a little insulting but I'll forgive you since it seems like you've never looked at how much things like this cost. Also nothing to do with "JDM mark up" since it was made in the USA. If you want to go fast it costs money. It always comes down to the same thing. Cost, reliability, performance. Pick two.
BorgWarner EFR 9180 Turbo - Full-Race.com
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
