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So I have a new short block 2.3l out of my 16 focus rs.
I also have the stock turbo both with only 4K on them. I able to squeeze 398awhp out of this engine and turbo before I took it out. trq was around 400 if I remember correctly.
What do you guys think of putting it in a rx8?
Your best bet for getting it running would be the EcoBoost controls pack from Ford, that's about $1800. The Miata 6 speed starts to get sketchy at 350 whp, and more sketchy over 400hp.
There's nothing magical about the EcoBoost, and the DI setup means it's harder to break through the fuel delivery ceiling if you're upping power. I'd be inclined to look at other turbo-4 offerings, like the Ecotec or Honda K-series, to see if their price/performance ratio is similar.
[QUOTE=Laminar;4938515]Your best bet for getting it running would be the EcoBoost controls pack from Ford, that's about $1800. The Miata 6 speed starts to get sketchy at 350 whp, and more sketchy over 400hp.
There's nothing magical about the EcoBoost, and the DI setup means it's harder to break through the fuel delivery ceiling if you're upping power. I'd be inclined to look at other turbo-4 offerings, like the Ecotec or Honda K-series, to see if their price/performance ratio is similar.[/QUOT
Nothing magical?
Of course not but I also have one sitting around doing nothing. Second I can tell you I can get best bang for my buck power out of the ecoboost. To match that 380whp numbers with anything. You stated would Cost much more. With the boost it’s a simple tune.
Second the fueling is not an issue at all. I’ve crossed that bridge already with my rs and it’s very simple to get enough fuel with the di without a fuel rail.
And as stated I would be using a ford control pack.
And possibly a mustang trans. As the same block is run in the 2.3 mustang.
I wouldn’t need to cross the fuel delivery issue with the stock turbo and don’t think more hp would be needed over that especially with that much trq.
I was thinking of this as maybe a fun build on a somewhat budget if such a thing exists for this type of thing. I think team hit the biggest issue height and length.
I can’t imagine it would be easy to drive with the hp possible but if the Camaro v6 fits wonder if a 3.5 ecoboost would.
Lots more piping for the Turbos but if it would work would be a great way to go. Stock turbos and a tune get you close to 500whp and gobs of trq. Plus very reliable. My 15 truck has 480whp with downpipes meth and tuning and has been very reliable for the last 260,000 miles. That’s drag racing twice a year and it’s my work truck so towing trailers all over the US. Just a fun thing to think about how insane a 8 would be with that much power while keeping the weight relatively low
I can’t imagine it would be easy to drive with the hp possible but if the Camaro v6 fits wonder if a 3.5 ecoboost would.
Lots more piping for the Turbos but if it would work would be a great way to go. Stock turbos and a tune get you close to 500whp and gobs of trq. Plus very reliable. My 15 truck has 480whp with downpipes meth and tuning and has been very reliable for the last 260,000 miles. That’s drag racing twice a year and it’s my work truck so towing trailers all over the US. Just a fun thing to think about how insane a 8 would be with that much power while keeping the weight relatively low
The twin turbo GM V6 has the advantage of the manifold-integrated CAC on top of the engine for easier packaging.
The 3.5 EcoBoost is really wide at the turbos, those may have to be moved for packaging reasons.
And with that in mind, I'd never waste my money on a 3.5 EcoBoost - I'd get a 3.7 Mustang V6. Same block, same powdered rods, same hyper pistons - the EcoBoost isn't built any stronger. But EcoBoosts run $3000+ used and you can get a Mustang V6 for $300 all day. And with the Mustang engine on port injection, you can run whatever ECU you want as Ford still hasn't really released the mythical 3.5 controls pack.
It would be an absolute blast and it's the reason I keep looking for cheap local RX-8s.
Wouldn’t the same reason the gm would be more narrow be its downfall for power also? The headifold is what they use on the 2.3 boost and that is what limits the power output on those.
Plus I am not aware of any gm turbo being the 4 or the 6 coming even close to reliability and power as the ecoboost. That is what Livernois take on it is so I’d have to trust them and considering the head tuner is a gm guy I can’t say it’s bias.
I am able to get a ecoboost ecu pack for them not a huge issue. Not saying for a track car that the gm may not be the better option. But if you wanted bulletproof power on those levels the boost is the way to go. I’d have to imagine it would be be any harder to get in than an ls those are big engines.
Ideally I’d like to use my 2.3 as it’s such low hours and was an absolute beast when maxing our stock turbo and boost levels. So much trq but very controllable delivery.
Wouldn’t the same reason the gm would be more narrow be its downfall for power also? The headifold is what they use on the 2.3 boost and that is what limits the power output on those.
I was talking about the water-to-air intercooler mounted up top, so you don't need to plumb an air-to-air up front.
Plus I am not aware of any gm turbo being the 4 or the 6 coming even close to reliability and power as the ecoboost.
I am able to get a ecoboost ecu pack for them not a huge issue.
For the 3.5? Where?
Not saying for a track car that the gm may not be the better option. But if you wanted bulletproof power on those levels the boost is the way to go. I’d have to imagine it would be be any harder to get in than an ls those are big engines.[/quote]
The LS is a tiny engine, narrower than a DOHC 60 degree V6. The length of the V8 would make it harder to tuck behind or around the crossmember, but you'll be hard-pressed to find a narrower v-style engine than the Ford small block or LS.
Ideally I’d like to use my 2.3 as it’s such low hours and was an absolute beast when maxing our stock turbo and boost levels. So much trq but very controllable delivery.
It'd be cool for sure, definitely change up the character of the car.
I guess I assumed they were available when I was looking at doing a swap into a falcon I was told they could get the pack from ford performance. They had a release a while back stating they were available.
Not sure if that’s what they were referring to or the fact that they are able to get them since they work with ford so often.
Something must be available because a few dune buggies and other swaps have been done before the pack was available but I assumed that was all the controls being swapped also. Since then I think last year at arms they released the stand alone.
Or could always go with syvec.
sure, all it takes is money to pretty much do anything
maybe you should go study the other engines more; the GM V6 swap is NA and doesn’t even have an exhaust manifold; just a super tight-radius elbow
again the issue is how tall an inline 4-cyl relative to the length; a V6 is only 3 cyl long and the v configuration reduces the vertical height. Not seeing any room for a turbo, let alone two. Initially I was a doubter myself, but after studying it in detail instead concluded that Andrew Keisler doesn’t get enough credit for this swap package concept
. . .
and while an LSX V8 is 4-cyl long, it was designed to be a compact low profile fitment in a Vette, which again the v configuration helps. While it does fit, it takes a lot more mods and rearranging things to shoe horn it in there
.
You can get your engine in there, but will just have to figure out and do whatever it takes to make that happen. Which was supposedly the focus of this thread. Unfocused jabbering on over not well planned or thought out concepts involving other off topic engines that don’t easily fit isn’t going to get you any closer to making it happen.
so again, learn and understand the chassis first to avoid the dead end road to nowhere ~~~
You sir are correct. But how am I supposed to learn the chassis without asking these questions form people like you who know.
As stated I’m new to this chassis and the fastest way to hash out open ideas is here with talk like this from someone like you. Saves time and money before jumping in.
Like if you were to buy an ecoboost or rs chassis I could easily help you into what you needed without you falling for the same mistakes most make.
On a side note boy that v6 looks amazing.
Not to mention this is just and idea and cost would not be as big of concern as it was not stated. Ideas are just ideas. If you look at a ls v8 in a pickup and look at a 3.5 in a truck the ls seems bigger. Lots of room in the 3.5 truck. Not saying your not right just asking questions to see what people think.
If I decide to move forward I’ll be hitting that man up for sure. If and big if it could be done it would be something Awsome light weight and crazy power. But not sure it would based on exactly what you said 4 cylinders long and tall. So maybe if I take a bunch of measurements and contact him he can give us all a very good idea.
I should also add I’m a weirdo and even though I know gm motors can and are a good cheap way to go. I love to be different and am a ford guy at heart so even if it was a bit more money I would tend to go that way. Hence why I thought the 2.3 I have sitting around would be Awsome. Huge power and lighter than both the gm engines.
So I have a new short block 2.3l out of my 16 focus rs.
I also have the stock turbo both with only 4K on them. I able to squeeze 398awhp out of this engine and turbo before I took it out. trq was around 400 if I remember correctly.
What do you guys think of putting it in a rx8?
I say go for it. I think you're going to have some challenges.
The high pressure fuel pump on the back of the cylinder head means you either have to put a hole in the firewall (and into the HVAC) or you move the engine forward. The four cylinder causes interference problems with the stock steering rack. I went with the NC Miata rack and an electrically-powered hydraulic pump and my oil pan and front pulley still barely clear the steering rack. Doing a non-Ecoboost MZR / Duratec helps you in this regard, you can slide the engine back because you don't have the DI pump to deal with. I also had to space the front anti-roll bar forward about 50mm.
You need to notch the windshield wiper cowl. Not a big deal. Firewall can stay stock which is nice. There are adapter plates made to bolt the RX-8 gearbox to the Duratec / MZR / Ecoboost, so you can run a stock trans (or an FD RX-7 trans like I did initially).
I have the 2.5L in mine with aftermarket forged internals, bigger cams and a EFR7163. It makes 400whp without even trying, plenty of headroom to go up if needed.
John that sounds like a great build. I bet it really moves. The fuel pump does sit up a bit high.
Team I like the fact you dismiss everything you haven’t done. This man has a motor that I’d very similar and answered some very important questions.
You are clearly very knowledgeable about this car but also come off as if an idea like this is not worth it. Not sure why. I respect the crap out of your knowledge and appreciate times you have helped me but to imply that an idea like a ecoboost is beating your head against a wall is just as stupid or more than the idea itself.
The only reason I asked was cause i have a new motor and turbo ready to rock. All I got from you is why it won’t work. Not saying I was going to because I have enough builds as it is and your first posts laid out things I did not think about that would be a pain in the ***. So you are colorectal in some aspects but the fact this guy has a similar motor means it’s not as impossible as you make it sound.
I say go for it. I think you're going to have some challenges.
The high pressure fuel pump on the back of the cylinder head means you either have to put a hole in the firewall (and into the HVAC) or you move the engine forward. The four cylinder causes interference problems with the stock steering rack. I went with the NC Miata rack and an electrically-powered hydraulic pump and my oil pan and front pulley still barely clear the steering rack. Doing a non-Ecoboost MZR / Duratec helps you in this regard, you can slide the engine back because you don't have the DI pump to deal with. I also had to space the front anti-roll bar forward about 50mm.
You need to notch the windshield wiper cowl. Not a big deal. Firewall can stay stock which is nice. There are adapter plates made to bolt the RX-8 gearbox to the Duratec / MZR / Ecoboost, so you can run a stock trans (or an FD RX-7 trans like I did initially).
I have the 2.5L in mine with aftermarket forged internals, bigger cams and a EFR7163. It makes 400whp without even trying, plenty of headroom to go up if needed.
JV
THanks John this is exactly what info I was looking for. do you track this car? If so how does it feel compared to the stock car handling wise. I’ve seen a few ls swaps and it obviously changes the car a lot. Just curios as to how the weight and we’re the engine sits changes the car.
Also if you ever find another shell and wanted to play with a boost I would may be willing to donate. Just think it would be cool for someone to do.
go back and reread me telling you about an MRZ build or two on here, and also me telling you to look and see what has been done before on the RX8 chassis; it was a specific reference to that one and others
then reread my previous post
rather, I didn’t dismiss anything; I shared what I knew with you and also credited you with the ability to comprehend and do your own due diligence rather than having to be spoon fed or handled with kid gloves like some easily triggered noob ... that’s what was dismissed.
.
Not easily triggered just think that some people can be a holes for no reason. I’ve dug through many of these threads and didn’t see the answer. Yes lots of info about a lot of different things .but like anything. Else online as time progresses maybe someone came up with something new. And yes I’m am a noob to this car as I stated so I guess that’s bad on me. Just remember at one point everyone is new.
Imagine if when you first got yours and wanted to start some conversations for ideas and small talk and someone who was well versed I. It consistently talked to people like they were stupid. How welcome would you feel. Again Not a huge deal to me especially if you knew me but you seem to do this to a lot of members and we should want to grow the group not shrink it. Even dumb ***’s should feel welcome.
I guess I'd echo Team's suggestion, go read the MZR swap thread in the motorsports forum and see what I had to do. It was very challenging to fit the engine in the bay due to the height and overall length of the motor. The high pressure fuel pump just makes the hardest thing about the swap harder.
In terms of weight, with the turbo and intercooler there is a bit more weight on the front end than an NA RX-8 powered by a Renesis. And though I don't really have a way of measuring it, the Cg is almost certainly higher than with the Renesis. The actual 2.5L motor itself, with all the accessories, manifolds, etc, is actually a little lighter than the Renesis. In terms of handling, it's been a long time since I drove a Renesis-powered RX-8 but my car feels similar, just brutally fast in a straight line. It definitely doesn't have the lumbering feel of an LS swap.
My weight as of yesterday is 2,680lb with a quarter tank of fuel. But I've got a pretty heavy front splitter and rear wing.
Thanks this is what I looked for when Rossi g the idea out. I did do a search but boy this one on here is lacking. I bet your car is a blast. I have fun in mine and it’s all stock. I have more fun than in my built stuff it seems. Maybe because I don’t have the cash into this one that makes the thought of ruining it terrifying
02-16-2021, 06:21 PM
