BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

Is there an easily understandable source for a neophyte like myself that details the differences of the various incarnations of the rotaries that everyone is talking about?
Or if someone has already done a thread like this, perhaps a link?
I would like to know more about what y'all are talking about.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

If Mazda had gone with any other fuel other than gasoline we wouldn't have the carbon issues Diesel has a lot going for it, being stronger in the engine's weak points, and diesel is an oil so no more oil injection needed. Any of the alcohols would work too though, since they clean pretty well. Might have lubrication problems though, since it would also be cleaning the injected oil film.

I can send you a PM if you would like. I don't know of a single source for everything.

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

I'll just do some research, thanks.

Chrishoky

iTrader: (9)

^Here you go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Wankel_engine

Joker_andthe_thief

. Its hard to sell a Rex with a blown motor also like you said great handle ing great areo just low power and reliability soooo swap is the awenser

blackenedwings

RX-8s don't sell for much regardless. I know, I've sold two. Putting in a min-cost rebuild engine and selling is still far cheaper than trying to swap. The cost to do so is prohibitive unless you are doing all the labor yourself and cutting massive corners in parts. I don't view things like emissions as required in a street car, but I don't consider a car with a lit up dash full of lights, no traction control, spotty electronics etc to be viable, and far too many swaps in this car end up that way if they even get that far.

I agree with RIWWP, the car is a fantastic GT cruiser and doesn't need a swap or FI for that role. If I had been less disgusted with the chassis I would have kept one of my RX-8s just to putter around in, but at the time I was still trying to drive a caged 500+ whp car on the street... so...

RE Brettus: The looks... I agree the Evo looks are polarizing, I've always loved them, but some people cannot stand how the car looks. Just a matter of individual taste, no harm in that.

Joker_andthe_thief

first off evo 7,8,9 beautiful machines, Inessa Tushkanova had an 8 or 9 with a 10 front end convertion lol,,,

all considered I bought my GT 6speed for 2700 on the road,,, a 04-06 with a new engine and decent body will go for $10,000-$14,000 in Toronto/GTA,, I figured people like the car hate the motor rebuilding,,,,, so $2,700 + $5000 for the swap I'd be in for around $7,700 and have an asking price of $15,000 claiming, 300hp 260tq, twin turbo and -reliability- then take the first $12,000-$13,000 offered..... :/


and regarding the build I will be doing everything myself 100% I have a machinist who will make me specific parts that I cannot and I will be doing all the cutting and welding to fit the engine 100%,, after the "fitment" is complete the water hoses, vac lines, and electrical will go in, (1jz harness/ecu) then the Rx-8 harness/ecu for the cluster and thing's like abs and electric steering rack, the rest will be cut off and re wrapped, using as much OEM equipment as possible i have my ohm meter/tester and nothing but time, to sort out the electrical issues I have legitimately thought this out despite my attitude I also enjoy being a little sh*t.. for every hour of labor I do 2-3 hours of research and collecting different opinions from a couple of friends and neighbors.

on actually slightly behind scheduled the motor should have be "fitted" 3 weeks ago but i was slacking,, mount will be done for this up coming week mon/tuesday

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I won't hold my breath.

LiveWire

iTrader: (1)

I held back from some other comments, but this just seems like too much fun.

I understand my standards for a swap are high, but here we go..

Ill break it down super quick. We can start with the motor. Realistically, used and needs a rebuild. Most cost effective is a not blown motor, around 2k.
Rebuild kit at 1g reasonably.
Single turbo at 500.
ECU at 1k.
We will just say you can get a downpipe, BOV, and wastegate for 500.

There's $5,000. No tune, no installation, no lines, pipes, fuel system, custom wiring harness, etc.

If it was only 5 grand, everyone would do it. Even if it was only that much, I would still pay for quality, shiny nice parts and good custom work. IMHO cars are one of the things in the world where spending more money usually gets you a better result.

LSXREX

This is a swap thread. Not bolting on a turbo thread. Anyone can bolt on a turbo. No real skill required for that. He'll even a 20B is a been there done that. With that said Id be willing to bet titles that a 20B weighs more than an LS motor (aluminum) and just as far forward.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

he is talking about a swap..

beers

LSXREX

That was in response for the 9krpm guy.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

might quote him then it gets confusing.

beers

Joker_andthe_thief

break down as of what I spent so far

1jzgte with under $60,000mi with harness with ecu with alternator no starter motor,,,,, $1000 cash

tranny adapter i spent $500 all in

motor come with twing ct12a's and 10psi wategates...

down pipe / y pipe $300 obx

inter cooler piping pipe bender $100 on kijiji 6ft of 2.5" aluminum pipe $130 silicon cupling $50

starter motor $50cash (importer)

clutch kit 1jz flywheel 1jz pressure plate rx-8 clutch $150 reusing rx-8 clutch as it had a lot of meat on it,,,

vacuum lines and coolant hoses fuel hose from spool $50

fuel return line steel $25

rear sump oil pan (unknown expense) $300

engine mount and fabricated tranny mount $80

fluids $100

BOV $100

gages $300 boost, oil temp, oil pressure



re-use rx-8 electric steering rack
re-use rx-8 drive shaft
re-use rx-8 6speed (will rebuild next season)
re-use rx-8 harness and tranny speed sensor and crank sensor with fabed braket
re-use the front mount from my 95 240sx


and I have done all the labor myself except for the machining of my adapter and my custom pilot bearing ($500 as stated above)


so that actually adds up to $3000, without paying myself now throw $2000 on top for what i missed or more hidden expenses

Joker_andthe_thief

my girl sitting in the Rex waiting for me and my younger brother(drives civic) to slide the motor in

Joker_andthe_thief

I gotta make a rad support / intercooler support, $100 steel

Joker_andthe_thief

the car itself was $2700 tax in with about 2 months of life in it

LiveWire

iTrader: (1)

I thought we were discussing an REW build, but I will humor everyone and move the argument to your build. I believe those hidden costs will add up to more 2000, but that can be skewed. For example, I did not own a 54mm socket to remove the flywheel on my 13brew (which was around 20 dollars + the 8 dollar adapter), but I do not charge that to my build. In the end, that is an expense for that project specifically. When you ignore labor costs AND tool costs, you obviously get a lower number than other people because they are being more upfront about the money. Its always better to quote out of pocket rather than raw parts cost. Quality of parts is also ignored. I am not doubting your work, but it is likely a welding professional will do a better job.

The trans. is really a whole beast in itself. Believe me I wish you were right and it could easily be rebuilt, but that fact is that the demand for that market is so small that most end up swapping out transmissions, leaving no real rebuild potential over another stock unit. That is what my research has told me. That ends up being a large hidden expense. There is a large list of other things missing as well. I'm sure you don't need me to spit all the parts I think you will need, but if you want me to I can type up a little list.

Other parts are largely skewed as well. Honestly, to the average enthusiast it seems like you are cutting corners with quality and just quoting the cheapest prices. I don't know what you are getting prices in particular, so take it with a grain of salt, but it seems like you may be cutting corners and I do not find it wise to under-engineer a build that is so custom anyway.

LiveWire

iTrader: (1)

What about horizontally? What about the 20B needing 1 less turbo? I would also bet the 20B is easier to seat father back (less firewall cutting). But yes it does mess up stock geometry. The 20b also has piping in (generally) in the right places, meaning less is needed compared to swapping an ls in. Im no Mech-E, but id bet the torsional and vibration oriented forces of the 20b distribute throughout the frame better than an LSX motor. Just food for thought!

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, there is a lot of stuff he is still missing from that cost list. Two major items that are obvious omissions in his list. He will find it all eventually though, assuming he has enough persistence to keep throwing money at the problems well past his budget. That and when stuff keeps breaking because of his cut corners, he will start repeating the costs until he finally decides to do it right.

G_ man

iTrader: (2)

You can't really include labour costs when doing the work yourself,that's why we do it to save $$$.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I don't think any of us are including labor costs in our arguments.

As I stated previously in the thread, it's a $17,000 parts-only list of parts already produced and fabricated ... plus engine plus harness for a complete LS swap into a 1990-2005 Miata. What about that swap is more complicated or more expensive than swapping the same drivetrain into an RX-8?

The RX-8 doesn't have the R+D, doesn't have the custom stuff fabricated and available off the shelf, the Miata doesn't have the electronics problems the RX-8 has, etc...

I logically can not fathom a reason why someone thinks that it would be a cheaper parts list for an RX-8, except fingers in the ears or head in the sand. It's like you are saying "That professional team doesn't know what they are doing! I can do it with a tig welder and duct tape! I don't need all those other parts and solutions solved!"

I'd very much like one of the swap guys to articulate why they think the RX-8's swap is easier...

LSXREX

Sure it's wider but ive looked at 20B swaps and it isn't small by any measure. Maybe a few inches thinner than the V8. The 20B is maybe only a few inches back. My motor is as close as you can get to the firewall without needing to cut it up. No firewall cutting at all for mine. Just had to bend that bay pinch weld and clearance the cowl in the center where the intake resides. What do you mean "less piping?" Isn't the rotary the only motor requiring numerous coolers and miles of hose? LS only requires heater, radiator, and fuel hoses. Less than the rotary with all the oil cooler stuff. You would also be right in your statement about vibes. But we aren't building aircraft or helos (by the way I'm a junior Mech E student at one of the best Engineering schools in the country and an ten year aircraft mechanic). Vibes would have the slightest impact on a car unless you just get really annoyed in traffic. VW bug (air cooled) motors are pretty annoying. Also I didn't even account for the turbo, intercooler, and all the piping for a turbo build which I assure you would put weight well into the iron block LSX status. Dare I say chevy small block weight range. The 20B is smoother but the LS is no dirt bike either.

LSXREX

No one says the RX8 is an easy swap. It's a pain in the *** and looking back, I should have bought my buddy's 996 C4s with the IMS failure for my LS swap. I was gonna fab all my swap parts but I came across a complete Hinson swap kit for a great price. Way more than what I would have spent on materials but the less headache was worth it. But it really isn't that difficult of a swap. Aside from the canbus, which I wont begin to worry about bc I'm not a tech nerd, it is a pretty straight forward swap. Bolt it in, fuel it, cool it, wire it and fire it. My parts list is pretty substantial and due to intelligent purchasing and well thought out plan my cost is very low. Lower than you might imagine. I'm using all high quality parts and no corners are cut. Motor and trans are used but I wouldn't have put a new motor in that Porsche. Most anyone who buys a crate motor is a newb anyway. I wouldn't take what those Miata guys say seriously bc they are a business and if they said they did it cheaper, people would want it cheaper. i want some of these moon chasers to show us something so they can lead by example.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

That is a $17,000 parts list (plus engine and harness) that they provide the list for free to the DIYers. The business side is where they charge $47,000+ to do a turn key swap for people using that parts list.

So your dismissal of the number is flawed there. The people that want it cheaper than $47,000 do it with that parts list for less. And yes, people do it.


I didn't say that the RX-8 was easier, or that anyone though it was easy. Just complication = cost. Period. There is no way around that. How do you think that the RX-8 is less complicated than a Miata? Seriously....answer that question?