Pettit Racing’s Forced Induction System
07-31-2007, 12:20 AM
#176
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No, there was plenty of tuning going on there. Parts of the load map were correct and the machine-level setup was correct (the injector staging, ignition setups, dwell, firing order, etc.).
The idle map was totally FUBAR. The pump settings were really strange.
The ignition timing was completely wrong. The idle calibration was off the map (usually, it is just a few clicks in one direction or the other from correct).
I don't even remember half of it - it was so far off the mark that I just flew through all of the settings and put them somewhere usable from memory - muscle memory!
Once I had the basics in the neighborhood, I tinkered with it for a few to make sure it would run and be safe (hard not to be at only 3 PSI, but I digress) and spent the rest of my limited time on getting a stable idle in and out of gear and with the A/C on and off (that is a feat unto itself and its still far from perfect).
The idle map was totally FUBAR. The pump settings were really strange.
The ignition timing was completely wrong. The idle calibration was off the map (usually, it is just a few clicks in one direction or the other from correct).
I don't even remember half of it - it was so far off the mark that I just flew through all of the settings and put them somewhere usable from memory - muscle memory!
Once I had the basics in the neighborhood, I tinkered with it for a few to make sure it would run and be safe (hard not to be at only 3 PSI, but I digress) and spent the rest of my limited time on getting a stable idle in and out of gear and with the A/C on and off (that is a feat unto itself and its still far from perfect).
Was any of this mentioned to Cam?
I will surely bring this to his attention.
Cams answer also was not a dodge... There is way more going on here in the world of Flashing the Factory Unit. One again, I cannot speak for Cam, but many players are helping and involved in both the Aftremarket tunes and Stock ECU. The Time statement was clearly marked as "From Scratch".
I think again the point is being missed that Most want to wait for the Flash BEFORE they buy a kit, while others want it NOW, regardless of the "issues". These units are being moved for those gotta have it now people.
I will, however; float the question about Phil's funky maps/tune!
07-31-2007, 12:24 AM
#177
The flash will be great - but it is vaporware at the moment.
The kit is out there and the Int-X is what it is shipped with, so that tune needs to be somewhere close to reality.
The problem in Phil's tune are not accidental - its not like the values were zeros or off the chart. We are just talking milliseconds and degrees of crank rotation. The choices were very deliberate.
But, they were very, very wrong.
The kit is out there and the Int-X is what it is shipped with, so that tune needs to be somewhere close to reality.
The problem in Phil's tune are not accidental - its not like the values were zeros or off the chart. We are just talking milliseconds and degrees of crank rotation. The choices were very deliberate.
But, they were very, very wrong.
07-31-2007, 12:43 AM
#178
The point is - at this time the tuning for the RX-8 is a fairly well "known entity"; certainly with regards to the Int-X.
To suggest that there is something particular about the Pettit kit that affects the TCS/DSC, speed limiter or any aspect of injector and ignition tuning is ludicrous.
To suggest that there is something particular about the Pettit kit that affects the TCS/DSC, speed limiter or any aspect of injector and ignition tuning is ludicrous.
07-31-2007, 08:02 AM
#184
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or realize that when you have to be the absolute first in line to buy something from a non-OEM (without tons of development money, testing time, and manufacturing controls), your going to be somewhat of a beta tester and should expect a few problems and then supprt to fix the problems...
07-31-2007, 08:39 AM
#185
Just to set the record straight, Steve Kan tuned my 8 on a dyno not for the street. He was not very happy with the results but was not able to improve his tune. Not understanding the process between street tunes and dyno tunes I elected the dyno - WRONG. I guess dyno tunes have their place but never again for me. I went together with the local 7 club on the tunes and they were all extremely happy with their results, in fact on guy who was cynical about the process gained 20hp from base.
07-31-2007, 01:55 PM
#189
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I just made an appointment with Mazsport for a Street Tune & Dyno Tune. Mazsport supplies the Interceptor X which is part of the SC kit and is located 15 minutes from work. I know that I will not be able to get the maximum hp potential out of my particular setup without the proper equipment. I'm sure that with the experience and knowledge of Mazsport I will be able to achieve that. Will post results right after tuning (middle of August). 190 miles so far since the SC installation and no noticeable issues to point out.
07-31-2007, 02:47 PM
#190
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Dodged another one.
The MAPs in Phil's Int-X are absolutely NOT "base maps". I have the "base map" right in front of me.
Also, though it is true that every car needs tuning, the "base map" that Scott ships with the Int-X is significantly more compatible with the wide range of applications and variations than what was in Phil's machine. Look at the number of people that have ordered the Int-X from MazSport and simply plugged it in with good effect.
The setup in Phil's Int-X wasn't even correct. It wasn't even set to idle, let alone produce power. It had no ignition timing (basically a static timing curve, fixed around 9 degrees).
This is really basic stuff, not something that needs a significant amount of time (and I certainly bristle at the implication that they were willing to ship the kit "as is" and not invest the necessary time in the single most important component of the system - the tune).
I know a bunch of you are going to get all upset at my tone, so just calm down for a minute and think about how significant this is - Pettit shipped this kit without tuning it. Think back to what happened to early adopters of the GReddy kit. Can you possibly understand why this is upsetting to me and should be to you too?
It isn't an excuse to say "we'll fix it in the mix" when it comes to tuning. You blow up cars that way and you get crappy results at a minimum.
This is just such a cavalier response to a serious question.
The MAPs in Phil's Int-X are absolutely NOT "base maps". I have the "base map" right in front of me.
Also, though it is true that every car needs tuning, the "base map" that Scott ships with the Int-X is significantly more compatible with the wide range of applications and variations than what was in Phil's machine. Look at the number of people that have ordered the Int-X from MazSport and simply plugged it in with good effect.
The setup in Phil's Int-X wasn't even correct. It wasn't even set to idle, let alone produce power. It had no ignition timing (basically a static timing curve, fixed around 9 degrees).
This is really basic stuff, not something that needs a significant amount of time (and I certainly bristle at the implication that they were willing to ship the kit "as is" and not invest the necessary time in the single most important component of the system - the tune).
I know a bunch of you are going to get all upset at my tone, so just calm down for a minute and think about how significant this is - Pettit shipped this kit without tuning it. Think back to what happened to early adopters of the GReddy kit. Can you possibly understand why this is upsetting to me and should be to you too?
It isn't an excuse to say "we'll fix it in the mix" when it comes to tuning. You blow up cars that way and you get crappy results at a minimum.
This is just such a cavalier response to a serious question.
Originally Posted by Phil's 8
Just to set the record straight, Steve Kan tuned my 8 on a dyno not for the street. He was not very happy with the results but was not able to improve his tune. Not understanding the process between street tunes and dyno tunes I elected the dyno - WRONG. I guess dyno tunes have their place but never again for me. I went together with the local 7 club on the tunes and they were all extremely happy with their results, in fact on guy who was cynical about the process gained 20hp from base.
It was not a direct result of what was delivered from Pettit?
I am a bit confused. As I read it, Phil had a tune session with Kan after the blower was initially installed and that Kan had left the tune in a less than satisfactory state? I am not pointing to Kan, just want to be clear on what is being said.
If so, then was Cam's cavalier response to a serious question, truly respectful of those that are helping to improve the system?
07-31-2007, 03:15 PM
#191
No, Steve Kan tuned Phil's car in NA form, not after the S/C install. Jeff did the tuning of the car post S/C.
The base map I loaded up to the Int-X from Cam, I was told, was created by Steve Kan who did it on Moon's car, and was included on the dongle that Cam eventually shipped to Phil. That was the base map that Jeff altered
The base map I loaded up to the Int-X from Cam, I was told, was created by Steve Kan who did it on Moon's car, and was included on the dongle that Cam eventually shipped to Phil. That was the base map that Jeff altered
07-31-2007, 03:32 PM
#192
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So Kan FUBAR'd the Pettit maps?
then Jeff fixed them.
My question: what do the pettit maps look like???
then Jeff fixed them.
My question: what do the pettit maps look like???
07-31-2007, 03:32 PM
#193
So, its Steve Kan either way?
Oh, just so we're clear: I do not consider Phil's car "tuned". All I did was fix the glaring mistakes and get the car to a point that I consider drivable.
I'd like to get my hands on the car again and really tune it for power and drivability.
Oh, just so we're clear: I do not consider Phil's car "tuned". All I did was fix the glaring mistakes and get the car to a point that I consider drivable.
I'd like to get my hands on the car again and really tune it for power and drivability.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 07-31-2007 at 03:38 PM.
07-31-2007, 04:27 PM
#196
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07-31-2007, 04:28 PM
#197
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LOL... Ok, now I am really even more confused!
Cobb and Kan... both do exist.
Did the loaded map appear to be an actual AT, Dyno based tune? Or was it maybe a Manual Kan tune?
Argh... Well I see why Cam sent me this...
CAM OF PETTET:
Dan
All I can say is who cares who did what, If blame needs to be on someone for something we gladly accept it. For over 25 years now we have worked with most all the professional of the RX community, we have shared and gained knowledge in a genuine effort to make improvements that everyone benefits from, we always welcome input from anyone who cares to help the cause because we are far from perfect and have surely made mistakes on countless projects, however; we are also known to not give up until things are right and will continue to make improvements that everyone benefits from, in the meantime Pettit will accept blame for every problem.
We feel very strongly that it is wrong for anyone to point a finger at those who were gracious enough to help us...Also this debate need to stop, if anyone has all or even 1 answer, let them be known so everyone can benefit.
Cobb and Kan... both do exist.
Did the loaded map appear to be an actual AT, Dyno based tune? Or was it maybe a Manual Kan tune?
Argh... Well I see why Cam sent me this...
CAM OF PETTET:
Dan
All I can say is who cares who did what, If blame needs to be on someone for something we gladly accept it. For over 25 years now we have worked with most all the professional of the RX community, we have shared and gained knowledge in a genuine effort to make improvements that everyone benefits from, we always welcome input from anyone who cares to help the cause because we are far from perfect and have surely made mistakes on countless projects, however; we are also known to not give up until things are right and will continue to make improvements that everyone benefits from, in the meantime Pettit will accept blame for every problem.
We feel very strongly that it is wrong for anyone to point a finger at those who were gracious enough to help us...Also this debate need to stop, if anyone has all or even 1 answer, let them be known so everyone can benefit.
07-31-2007, 04:31 PM
#198
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I don't think anyone is pointing a finger, just wondering who did the original tune.
07-31-2007, 04:38 PM
#199
I got that from the phrase "who is up who and who is not paying" which implied that this has turned into a bit of a soap opera .
It seems a lot of effort is being put into finding out why Phils tune was f**ked up .
I can't see why the tune being wrong has got everyone in such a lather . Phil wanted the kit - it was the first kitset sent out & the 2nd auto (after Moons) . He knew it was a new product that would need some sorting & he got some experienced people to help him with the install which seems to have worked out ok in the end . That should be the end of the story ......
It seems a lot of effort is being put into finding out why Phils tune was f**ked up .
I can't see why the tune being wrong has got everyone in such a lather . Phil wanted the kit - it was the first kitset sent out & the 2nd auto (after Moons) . He knew it was a new product that would need some sorting & he got some experienced people to help him with the install which seems to have worked out ok in the end . That should be the end of the story ......
07-31-2007, 05:03 PM
#200
So just to make sure I understand this... Kan altered the Pettit released base map/tune?
It was not a direct result of what was delivered from Pettit?
I am a bit confused. As I read it, Phil had a tune session with Kan after the blower was initially installed and that Kan had left the tune in a less than satisfactory state? I am not pointing to Kan, just want to be clear on what is being said.
If so, then was Cam's cavalier response to a serious question, truly respectful of those that are helping to improve the system?
It was not a direct result of what was delivered from Pettit?
I am a bit confused. As I read it, Phil had a tune session with Kan after the blower was initially installed and that Kan had left the tune in a less than satisfactory state? I am not pointing to Kan, just want to be clear on what is being said.
If so, then was Cam's cavalier response to a serious question, truly respectful of those that are helping to improve the system?