But it's not about what YOU want now is it?

 

Nope, if he wants a car that he thinks lacks power, needs thousands of dollars worth of mods, and handles nicely he should go for it!

 

Isn't it slightly more expensive to maintain? Or is that reserved only for the Evo? And I am not trying to stir ****, just asking what has been the tally so far on dealer visits for brakes, rotors, tires, etc...

 

PSkull traded his 8 in for a WRX not an STI. I would imagine the cars are about the same. Other than tires and brakes the STI isn't really any more expensive than the WRX or RX-8 (same could be said for the Evo). Also, I don't know of many people that shell out the money for the OEM tires on the Evo or the STi, there are tires just as good or nearly as good for far cheaper.

 

Oopsy there! I though he went for an STi! Oh well, so in other words, the big deal is keeping OEM tires (applies to both STi & Evo); which I imagine cannot be that much more far out than the stock Crapenzas that come with 8's. Myth Busted!

 

A friend and I both traded in for new cars at about the same time. He went to an STi and I went to an Rx8. We have driven each other's cars many times and I would like to throw in my observations to the discussion.

Price - Tie:
- At the time STi was non negotiable at sticker price ~32K.
- RX8 was 25K w/ Sport Pkg, Navigation sys, Appearance Pkg, etc.
- RX8 was a holdover 2004 though and if it snows I may need snow tires before he does.

Reliability - STi:
- STi 0 unscheduled dealer visits.
- RX8 1 recall visit, 1 dealer visit for navigation system but at least no major mechanical failures.

Insurance - RX8:
- We both had same rate w/ same previous cars (same model and model year).
- His rate is now almost double mine now.

Safety - RX8:
- Both very good crash test results and active accident avoidance.
- AWD better in inclement weather.
- RX8 has side head airbags. I have family and with all the large trucks out there this is a deal breaker for me.

Handling - Tie:
- This is very close from our very limited experience although we have been able to track both cars.
- STi is definitley faster around track because of at least equal grip, AWD pull out of corners, and stronger engine.
- It appears the RX8 has better results in autoX. IMHO autoX is a very legitimate indicator of a cars agility and handling capabilities.

Braking - Tie
- Some tests have STi braking better; others (such as Consumer Reports) have RX8 braking better.
- STI wheels powder up much more under heavy braking.

Ride - RX8
- We also happen to be coworkers and take turns driving to lunch down the same roads most days. RX8 is much more livable.

Acceleration - STi in every way but the exhaust sound.

Interior - RX8
- STi/SAAB interior is improvement but RX8 still a a different class.
- Every surface on RX8 is higher quality/no hard plastics.
- RX8 dials are buttery smooth, windows open close quiter and faster, etc.
- STi has automatic climate control.

Seat - Tie:
- Both seats are stellar.
- STi suede grips a little better.
- RX8 more confidence because it sits lower to the floor.

Gas mileage - ??:
- He gets 17MPG with COBB Stage 2 (350HP/385LB/FT).
- Don't know what he got stock but I know I was getting 22MPG with my old WRX.
- I get 21MPG with RX8.
- I wouldn't doubt it if he gets on the gas more because of that motor.

Handing Potential - RX8:
- Saying 50/50 weight distribution means nothing is as silly to me as saying it means everything. It is just a one variable in the equation but it doesn't amount to nothing either. It intuitively makes sense to me that distributing load more evenly on all 4 tires makes for better handling.
- To me RX8 has more potential as it is much more softly sprung yet still manages to hold its own
- RX8 engine is lower center of gravity, weight closer to middle, double wishbone in front
- I know for a fact RE070 is stickier than RE040. Just look at all the gravel sticking to those tires!

Acceleration Potential - STi:
- Aftermarket support goes to STi by far.
- AWD is very good for controlling high HP where it becomes a matter of grip.
- Don't bother if you plan to get RX8 and mod it to perform like STi.

 

Well, the scheduled maintenance on the Evo is higher than the STI, WRX, and I would imagine RX-8. Also, the Evo has a notoriously weak clutch, so there you're most likely looking at a jump in price for maintenance unless you totally baby it.

 

I agree with a lot of what you say....

But, the Impreza is the only 5 star crash test rated small car on the road, it's safer than an RX-8 even without the airbags, though the RX-8 is quite safe from what testing has been done.

I know my rates would be higher with an STI over my WRX but we're talking a third higher, is your friend young and unmarried and you're not married? Your friend also could have gotten the STI a touch over invoice unless he bought within the first few months after release, which isn't possible if you got a holdover 04 and got cars about the same time.

Also, I would say the STI interior may not be as attractive as the RX-8 but it's pretty close and IMO is more durable. I've seen too many worn shiftknobs, worn interior fabrics, and cracked buttons in RX-8s (FYI all hard plastics).

Handling potential, I wasn't implying that weight distribution was meaningless. But when cars like the Elise have a 38/62 weight distribution and handle the way they do it proves to me that there's more than one way to skin a cat. You say the RX-8 is too soft, well I say the STI has too much travel and is too soft. Put proper coilovers and other suspension bits on both of them and the STI still wins IMO.

Good post,
Ike

 

Just to add to what Ike said in regards to safety, I ran across this awhile back and thought I'd post it.


Rx8 Crash Test Results

 

The same reason that having a girlfriend or wife that looks better... so that when you walk away and look back, you don't cringe!

 

Concerning the crash test results, I looked up the Impreza using the same link provided which I assume is the NHTSA government database and it had 4 stars. Does the STi have more crash protection than the Impreza or was the 5 stars from another agency perhaps? Anyways, I like to look at the IIHS test results as their crash sled is taller better simulating the trucks/SUVs on the road today. In the IIHS tests it appears almost always that head airbags made a big difference in scores.

 

i cxan be wrong but insurance companies liek to hear u have alot of air bags , seems to be cheeper to insure

 

I meant specifically skidpad and braking (not handling overall). On the skidpad any car eventually reaches an equilibrium and how soft or not soft the suspension is, shouldn't matter too much as long as camber stays more or less neutral (just in this very particular case).
Both cars however reached the same numbers on the skidpad eventhough the weight on the outside tires in the RX-8 case is lower, due to the lower curbweight, the lower center of gravity and even the weight distribution (of course this can be corrected with sway bars). Also, the same factors significantly reduce weight on the front tires when braking and even with a softer suspension the RX-8 should have a significant braking advantage over the STI, but the numbers don't indicate that, which lead me to conclude that the STI has better stock tires.

Btw you made a good point with autoxing and 6 minutes of track time. One of the very reasons why I decided to go karting this season.

 

While I don't necessarily agree with your thinking on the handling of the cars you made a good choice with karting. :D Karting and track days ruined autox for me, and I'll never understand the guys that put thousands of dollars into their cars and never do anything but autox. So are you running sportsman or shifterkarts?

 

I suppose it depends the driver's build. I'm 5'9" and 160 pounds; I slid all over the STI seats, which seemed to be designed for fat-*** Americans :-) I also find the RX8's seat much more comfortable than my '02 WRX's, but again I guess it comes down to the individual. I agree with you that the EVO seats are very nice.

I think we've discussed this before, but anyway.... the base 6-speed RX8 commonly costs ~$24k while the STI costs $32-33k (at least that's what I would've had to pay... dunno how much the price has dropped). Had I'd added the RX8 sports package, the STI still would've been ~$7k more expensive (and then I'd have fog lights and TCS/DSC, which the STI lacks). I'm not sure why you think the GT RX8 should be compared to the STI... the only RX8 options that appeal to me are the MP3 player and navigation, which the STI also lacks.

Weight distribution isn't the holy grail of handling attributes, but it does "mean a damn thing when it comes to handling". Just like yaw moment, chassis stiffness, tires, suspension, low COG, low weight, etc... Some of the best handling cars are weaker in those areas and stronger in others; the RX8 is very weak as far as suspension goes (and while the base chassis is excellent, it's not as reinforced as the STI's).

Obviously that wasn't directed at me (I previously wrote "From a purely competition/performance point of view, the STI owns the RX8 in almost every way") but I will comment: You're shooting fish in a barrel. Some of us are more realistic about the RX8's performance than others... the same is true for how some of the guys at NASIOC, VTEC, and SRTforums view their cars. You can find plenty of people to bitch slap at any forum.

 

IKE I have an STI! Long story, but thats the car I ended up with.

 

Total BS Ike.

I'd love to see some of these "too many" examples.

Also, It's not the 50/50 distribution that makes the 8s great handling. It's where the weight is placed. The engine is more to the center of the car and is lower then most if not all FRWD cars. This makes steering crisp and effortless. I've driven both cars and the suspension on the sti is wayyyyyyyyy stiffer stock for stock. For the 8 to even come close to the sti proves how capable the 8s chassis is. You're blind if you can't recognize that.

BTW, If we are comparing just performance between both sti and rx8. We should compare the base sport 8 because it is lighter and has the performance drivetrain. In that case, the sti is over $5,000 more then an 8. Even the fully loaded 8 is still a few grand lower then an equally equiped STI. Go and check out the prices yourself. It's the exact same thing as me comparing a slightly used M3 to an STI.

FYI, The m3 is better stock for stock........

 

I will say this about the 8 interior, the gauge cluster and the leather are fantastic. The way the radio is integrated into the dash sucks, for those of us that want to go aftermarket, its going to get expensive. The car lacks climate control, something that just blows my mind. The center consol slider will break its only a matter of time. The cup holder placement is terrible. The seat warmer switches are terrible, I always found myself turning them on and off while driving. Oh and the heat control ***** are very fragil. I had one break 2 weeks after I got the car, and there is actually a recal for this particular piece.

The STI has a double DIN stero slot, so the after market really opens up. The STI has climate control. Cup holders are well placed. There is no seat warmer, so no switch to worry about.

Overall they both have a ton of plastic, neither is really special. The 8 always felt more jet fighter to me, but the center console was a little noisy, and took some getting used to. The STI is as plane jane as it gets. Very siimple, very clean, and I knew how to use everything the first time I saw it.

 

Actually, all what I said is that if the car reaches an equilibrium (which is only really the case on a skidpad) and camber stays neutral, what it really comes down to is rubber area per weight and per tire and the RX-8 has more rubber area per weight per tire, because of the reasons I mentioned. And of course on dry roads more rubber area per weight leads to more grip.
I just made an argument why the STI must have better stock tires than the RX-8, otherwise it would break the laws most tires obey to. (= More weight per area (more pressure) = reduced coefficent of friction).

I bought a used Rotax RM-1 which I thought I got a good deal on and thought this is a no worries, no tinkering and simply go thing, which of course turned out not to be the case. Also the RM-1 is not even faster than the Rotax FR125, which I think is probably the best choice in this area if you're looking for a lot of competition.

 

Well I have a plane jane 8 and I paid $24,000 brand new. $8,000 less then an sti. The quality is better, the ride is better and the price is better. I agree only with the cup holder placement. It sucks. I don't have heated seats so I can't comment on that but cc is not needed imo. I rather just turn a *** when I need to.

The stereo is fine imo. I swapped out speakers and it makes a huge difference.

Sure, the sti is more mod friendly but for the extra 8 grand you can snag up an 03 m3 and have everything better then the sti/rx8. That 8 grand difference can do a lot of things. It can be a down payment for a house or a Turbo upgrade. I rather have the choice.

 

I would agree with you, if the STI were an RX-8 with more horsepower. The STI is all wheel drive, that’s something an 8 will never be. This means better in the wet, and faster from a dig. When making a statement like that you must evaluate and consider these things.

I don't agree with your quality statement in the least. The STI is a tight car; all of the seals and joints are excellent. The ride quality is fantastic for a car that has such stiff suspension. The reliability of the STI is superior; can I point you to an article stating such? NO, but there is a couple floating around on this site. Perhaps someone else would be willing to do the leg work.

I've owned an 8, and it was in the shop on a regular basis. Is everyone going to experience these issues, no! However this site is full of people who had the same experience as me. I'm not criticizing Mazda, but the 8 was a big project, and the rotary is a quirky engine, problems are to be expected. I would just rather someone else deal with those new car problems, as I don’t have time for that.

As far as upgrading the car, well that’s just silly. Go ahead and buy your turbo, and than say goodbye to your warranty. That completely negates any argument about reliability, one of the cruxes of your argument.

If comfort and reliability are your thing the RX-8 is not your car. Go get a Toyota if that’s your goal. As far as sports cars are concerned the STI is better. I understand some people are willing to compromise performance for comfort, but the amount of performance lost in this transaction is not worth the value gained. The 8 has a smother ride, and a smoother gearbox, and the interior is marginally more comfortable, but the cars are not comparable in street performance.

 

You should clarify, it was not worth to you. However, it's been very well worth to me, eventhough I am one of the suckers who purchased when the 8 didn't event have 2 weeks on the market. Don't make such a blanket statement and pretend to be talking for all of us. Now, I don't have any problems with any cars (well...some), so don't take this the wrong way.

 

well i bought the car, so far so good other then i have 2 baby it,,, soon as my break in is over im goin all out lol, othe rthen that im fine, the climate control every 1 speaks of i can car less i never used it in any of my cars , every thing else is good 2 me.. the toyota comment,, they suck!

 

I didn't say what Toyota, could be a Supra. I hope you enjoy the 8, I loved it till all the crap strated breaking, and my friend let me drive his STI.