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Background: As many of you probably know I've had my 2004 GT boosted on a GReddy kit pushing between 6 and 9 psi since 2010 by way of a Greddy EBC. I've put about 65,000km (41,000mi) on it in that time with a HUGE shout out to Brettus for providing my tuning needs over this time. I'm currently still enjoying THE HELL out of this setup as it still runs, pulls, idles and hot starts great; but after performing a compression test earlier this year I was somewhat surprised (yet somewhat expecting) to see sub-par compression numbers. Results were mid 70's psi consistent across all 3 faces of both rotors of the original 2004 engine. After pricing out a rebuild for the Renesis with some upgrades (studding, 2mm Rx7 Apex seals, oil pressure) and a BNR Greddy turbo upgrade for a goal of ~320-350rwhp, I decided to bite the bullet and spend the additional money to go all in for a 13B-REW swap.
Goals: The goals are simple; the same as when I originally boosted the Renesis; I want the car to feel and drive like stock with the install as clean as possible so in the end the car looks like it could have come from the factory that way. For all you numbers oriented people out there I'll be aiming for 450rwhp with the ability to go 500+ in the future with additional modifications. These are just numbers, in the end these can, and probably will change, based on how the car drives once the swap is completed. I am not out to chase numbers on the dyno, these are just rough targets for what I know is achievable given the parts and modifications I have planned. The car will be 99% street driven with the odd track day here and there. It will be semi-daily driven (back and forth to work as I desire) during summer months only because I'm in Canada and half the year we are buried in snow.
The Build:
ECU: Going to the Adaptronic Modular Rx8 PNP ECU. My engine builder is familiar with the product and is able to provide me the tune along with the build.
ENGINE: As the thread title states it will be a 13B-REW that I am getting freshly built. It will have a large street port with RA Super seals, and a slight bump to oil pressure. The engine will be built with the FD front cover with use of a Hall effect sensor to feed the Adaptronic PNP. I will be re-using the Rx8 electronic throttlebody by way of an Elite TB spacer so traction control, cruise control, etc can be kept. I will be cutting off some of the UIM and LIM where the engine lifting bracket connects and where the factory EGR ports are so my firewall doesn't need to be hammered out as much (EGR ports will be blocked off inside the engine block during the build). The REW factory water pump inlet will be modified for clearance of the front sway bar and re-used, meaning the heater core routing will have to change slightly as well. A custom bracket will be fabricated to keep the AC intact. Some other minor modifications will include re-routing of the factory oil filler neck (as needed), oil filter relocation (a generic kit along with an available part from Force Fed Performance). I've also heard that the low oil sensor will need to be taken from the Renesis and installed onto the REW.
SWAP KIT: Will be using the Banzai crossmember with polyurethane mounts and low profile oil pan. Will be re-using the heat shield from FD to protect passenger motor mount.
TURBO/MANIFOLD/DP: Right now the plan is to use a Borg Warner EFR 9174 (IWG) with a 13lb actuator. This should be able to do the 450rwhp @ ~16psi and could be around 550rwhp at ~22psi. I have a custom low mounted exhaust manifold which will leave the turbo just slightly above the passenger side frame rail and will be getting a custom downpipe fabricated to mate up with my BHR 3" Catless Resonated midpipe. As a side note, will also be selling my GReddy SE catback exhaust ideally in exhange for an HKS Hi-Power 3" single outlet. Planning to block off the built in BOV on the BW EFR and plumb my HKS SSQV in instead; and remove the BW boost control solenoid and use my GReddy Profec B-Spec II instead.
FUEL SYSTEM: Have a lead on a set of lightly used FFE primary and secondary fuel rails from a local source along with the regulator and engine bay fuel pressure gauge. Planning to fit the primary rails with ID1000's and the secondary with ID2000's. Currently I have the DW200 fuel pump in my S1 pump assembly (pop off valve obviously melted shut). I am looking into having some sort of in-tank surge system fabricated but I'm curious what others have done with the Rx8 pump assembly for REW swaps? This is still definitely the most prominent weak spot in my planning/research so far. From what I understand the DW200 should be enough to feed my power goals. Any criticisms / advice here would be greatly appreciated.
MISC: Will be buying a new intercooler and piping to route a FMIC (one of my favorite things about my car is seeing that intercooler in the MazdaSpeed front bumper). Hoping I'll have enough room to route intake piping from the turbo to out of the engine bay very similar to what I have now with the Rx8Performance Greddy turbo intake. Planning to re-use my BHR ignition kit. Will be buying a new ACT Streetlite Rx7 flywheel and ACT P/PL Heavy Duty RX8 Clutch. I know it will only be a matter of time until the Rx8 6sp is no longer functional at these power levels; when the time comes my plan is to source an Rx8 5sp transmission.
This is all I can think of at the moment for a first post but please drop a comment with any advice/constructive criticisms. I plan to pull the trigger on the engine build in the next month or so with the install work carrying out through the winter.
Below are how the car sits today:
Last edited by RotaryMachineRx; 03-18-2020 at 03:58 PM.
I think you are on the right track. Glad you are going with the EFR9174. If I did it over again I would have gone EFR9180 and not looked back. I see two issues, but you could always fix them at a later date once you get up and running.
1. I tried to do the in-tank pump route and I was getting significant fuel pressure loss on anything above 15 psi with a smaller turbo. I ended up in end just using the S2 canister with stock S2 fuel pump for lift only to a surge tank with AEM 400 LPH primary and a secondary Bosch 044 fuel pump that turns on by a pressure switch at 5 psi (second pump is overkill but I Already owned it). Fuel pressure has not been an issue since.
2. That clutch. I saw it had a 330 torque rating (flywheel rated), which is probably under 300 lb/tq torque rating at the wheels. If you plan on pushing the car hard with anything other than radials, it won't likely won't be long for the world. Any single disc clutch that was built for a "rx8" will not work with a REW with the exception of maybe a full sintered iron setup which will not be that friendly for the street.
The good news is you can get the car up and running at like 10 psi, but once you come with the steam both items will likely need to be addressed....
Sad to see you leave the Renesis fold . For those goals you really have to though so .... I forgive you
As I mentioned earlier .... the 9174 could end up become redundant because the 8474 will flow just as much and likely spool better ...so keeep an eye on the 7 forum for results with that turbo before you pull the trigger.
1st thing id say is go with modular ecu even if you already have the select, its alot better and your car will thank you even if it will work with select. The problem with select is you have 2 ecus fighting each other and its not fun to manage
ditch the boost controler also and run the boost controler in the adaltronic, its much easier and precise.
Youll maybe need the xcessive lim if you dont want to modify the firewall, itll allow you to run 3 stages of injectors wich is good imo.
9174 is a good turbo, id go 9180 or 8474 ewg depending on power goals but good luck fitting these things down low, even more if iwg. I heard iwg creep often tho but its alot simpler piping wise. A custom manifold will be needed.
for fuel pump, i ran a s2 canister with a aem 320lph returnless and worked fine up to 15 psi on a 62mm turbo. I then upgraded to a return style fuel system with a walbro 450 in tank and worked fine since. Last year i was at 20psi and fuel pressures were spot on
5spd tranny is a good upgrade, itll last longer than 6 spd but to start, 6 spd is ok
i have a organic act clutch disc and seems to be holding for now surprisingly, a sprung 6 puck would be better.
For 500whp youll need a big intercooler and piping as itll choke flow otherwise
the bhr ignition will work also but id suggest ign1a coils for higher boost as they provide better sparks
I think you are on the right track. Glad you are going with the EFR9174. If I did it over again I would have gone EFR9180 and not looked back. I see two issues, but you could always fix them at a later date once you get up and running.
1. I tried to do the in-tank pump route and I was getting significant fuel pressure loss on anything above 15 psi with a smaller turbo. I ended up in end just using the S2 canister with stock S2 fuel pump for lift only to a surge tank with AEM 400 LPH primary and a secondary Bosch 044 fuel pump that turns on by a pressure switch at 5 psi (second pump is overkill but I Already owned it). Fuel pressure has not been an issue since.
2. That clutch. I saw it had a 330 torque rating (flywheel rated), which is probably under 300 lb/tq torque rating at the wheels. If you plan on pushing the car hard with anything other than radials, it won't likely won't be long for the world. Any single disc clutch that was built for a "rx8" will not work with a REW with the exception of maybe a full sintered iron setup which will not be that friendly for the street.
The good news is you can get the car up and running at like 10 psi, but once you come with the steam both items will likely need to be addressed....
Good info, thanks! I'll have to look more into the clutch as I'm planning on installing this while the engine is out for the swap. I'm trying to find a happy medium of something that will handle the power/torque but still be street friendly. I'll have to re-read your build thread as I remember seeing your section about your surge tank. I think ideally I'd like to stick with an in-tank setup if possible but I won't rule out an external surge tank by any means.
Originally Posted by Brettus
Sad to see you leave the Renesis fold . For those goals you really have to though so .... I forgive you
As I mentioned earlier .... the 9174 could end up become redundant because the 8474 will flow just as much and likely spool better ...so keeep an eye on the 7 forum for results with that turbo before you pull the trigger.
Thanks Brett it means alot to get your approval! No doubt I'm going to miss the experience I've had with the Renesis. For the goals I had and my experience with it, it was an exceptional platform and as I mentioned I still LOVE driving the car today. I know the bad rep the Renesis has but with my experience, it is unwarranted. It was honestly a very tough decision for me, I've been back and forth all summer about what route to go (rebuild vs swap). I know the Renesis platform very well and it's familiar; I know I could have rebuilt it for an amazing set-up. In the end the additional 100+ HP with room for more won me over; not to mention the builder I have lined up is local, has built countless drift FD's, and already performed a few Rx8 REW swaps. Even he has admitted though that I am the first to approach him looking to build a reliable, street friendly, clean, functional swap while still retaining the creature comforts. Most others have come to him looking for bare bones, no OMP, no AC/TC/CC, aggressive bridgeport, high idling, race/track/drift engines.
As far as turbo choice, I understand that the top end of this turbo is much bigger than I am probably ever going to need. The builder has reassured me that a 9174 is going to still have exceptional spool-up; should be able to reach full boost by 3500ish RPM which is pretty much exactly where I am with my much smaller GReddy turbo now. He already has one for me in stock too which is obviously an added bonus as it was bought when the CAD vs USD was in better shape. With that being said he is looking into what kind of costs we'd be looking at to buy a fresh 8374 or 8474 because no argument here, these smaller compressors will give better spool than the 9174 and still easily meet my power goals at a slightly higher boost pressure.
Originally Posted by MaD666MaX
1st thing id say is go with modular ecu even if you already have the select, its alot better and your car will thank you even if it will work with select. The problem with select is you have 2 ecus fighting each other and its not fun to manage
ditch the boost controler also and run the boost controler in the adaltronic, its much easier and precise.
Youll maybe need the xcessive lim if you dont want to modify the firewall, itll allow you to run 3 stages of injectors wich is good imo.
9174 is a good turbo, id go 9180 or 8474 ewg depending on power goals but good luck fitting these things down low, even more if iwg. I heard iwg creep often tho but its alot simpler piping wise. A custom manifold will be needed.
for fuel pump, i ran a s2 canister with a aem 320lph returnless and worked fine up to 15 psi on a 62mm turbo. I then upgraded to a return style fuel system with a walbro 450 in tank and worked fine since. Last year i was at 20psi and fuel pressures were spot on
5spd tranny is a good upgrade, itll last longer than 6 spd but to start, 6 spd is ok
i have a organic act clutch disc and seems to be holding for now surprisingly, a sprung 6 puck would be better.
For 500whp youll need a big intercooler and piping as itll choke flow otherwise
the bhr ignition will work also but id suggest ign1a coils for higher boost as they provide better sparks
water meth will be a must if youre not on e85
Good luck!
Thanks Max; I've been perusing your build thread as well. I'd be very curious to see more photos and get some more in-depth details into what you did with your return style fuel set-up. Like I say, it is a prominent weak spot in my knowledge and the more detailed explanation I could get would only benefit me. I admittedly need to re-read your thread though still.
As far as ECU goes yes, the plan was for the modular PNP to completely eliminate my stock ECU (which is currently throwing a P0610 code meaning it's essentially toast anyways). I do not have an ECU purchased yet.
Okay, now I do have some questions about the BW boost soleniod. My plan was to ditch it because I am so familiar with my GReddy EBC, but what does the BW solenoid connect to? Right to the adaptronic? To my Greddy EBC head unit? How is the solenoid controlled? My favourite quality of the Greddy EBC is that I can have two boost profiles, one for low boost and one for high boost that can be switched between at the push of a button; would the BW solenoid provide the same function if retained? Not to mention I already have the Greddy EBC wired in and moulded into my ashtray
I've looked into the Excessive manifold and for the cost difference, I'm just going to stick with modifying the stock LIM/UIM and hammering out the fire wall a small bit still (approx 1/4"). Most people I've talked to mentioned that even without the modifications the firewall hammering (about 1") isn't really noticeable.
The completely custom ex. manifold I have has already proven to fit the BW 9174 IWG in an Rx8 swap, so no worries there. If I end up going with the 8374 or 8474, from what I understand the external dimensions are the same as the 9174, so again should be good to go here.
I'm hoping to get by at the 450rwhp @ 16psi with the 9174 without water/meth. In the future when I decide to go for that 500+ target then a new transmission and water meth are the main upgrades I know I'd need from my initial swap/build; most likely ignition coils as well. Again, I won't sit here and say I know what's best but I am instilling my faith in my builder that the initial goal is achievable without water/meth injection.
Thanks so much for the feedback fella's, greatly appreciated and keep it coming!
Last edited by RotaryMachineRx; 08-29-2019 at 03:12 PM.
I haven't purchased anything yet. The builder already has it though and can sell it to me for cheaper because of that. Haven't heard back from him yet on getting an 8374 though.
Yeah, rotary needs more turbine rather than compressor, but the lightweight EFR turbine is rpm limited and so they can’t really do that special for rotary engines. The larger compressor wheel is good for a piston engine though.
From what i've been reading getting to 450-500hp will be much eaiser with 3.5-4 inch exhaust. I've been considering using a BHR resonator as well. I'm a fan of having a quieter exhuast note. Can you modify a BHR type resonator to fit a 3.5 inch exahust?
I bought a 4” x 30” long bolt-in insert from Spiral Turbo Baffles and then had a light gauge T321 shell & transitions made for my 3” race exhaust, but their website is now operating as dynamicexhaustsystems.com. I think it’s his son or son in law that’s doing them now. They offer pretty much 2”, 2.5”, 3”, 3.5”, and 4” in standard lengths or whatever length you may want.
The more bends you have after a muffler the more effective it will be ...kinda counter to making power ... But point is ....stick it up front for best effect.
From what i've been reading getting to 450-500hp will be much eaiser with 3.5-4 inch exhaust. I've been considering using a BHR resonator as well. I'm a fan of having a quieter exhuast note. Can you modify a BHR type resonator to fit a 3.5 inch exahust?
No doubt a larger exhaust will make reaching those numbers "easier" (faster spool up for sure), but I don't anticipate having any issue reaching those numbers with 3". I also think the HKS Hi-Power single outlet I bought is much less restrictive than almost all the other Rx8 exhausts. Minimal bends with nothing more than 45deg all the way from the turbo to the exit.
Last edited by RotaryMachineRx; 10-18-2019 at 02:22 PM.
Update:
Received my Adaptronic modular ECU with Wideband Module and fuel pressure sensor from Tuned by Shawn.
I'm hoping to do a sniff of my Canadian CAN Bus for Adaptronic this weekend just to ensure Tractions control and ABS will for sure remain functional for me. I've received a "special" cable from Shawn to do this, now just waiting for the correct software I'll need to log the sniff test from him. Once this is complete I'll be starting the removal of the Renesis and greddy turbo kit (local buyer for this already lined up).
I did decide to stick with the EFR 9174 iwg, I know there are multiple opinions of this turbo choice for my goals. Reasons being that I will be able to get to my targeted HP goals at a lower boost pressure. Yes this will sacrifice some low end spool up for sure, but I also plan on reaching the ~450whp on 91-94 octane pump fuel and no water methanol injection. I think the larger turbo will provide a better "safety net" for these constraints.
I know this isn't the exact same turbo (this is the EWG version of it) but here is a log from Turblown that makes me feel really comfortable with my selection. If in the end I do feel significant lag/spool up then the beauty of this is that the 8374iwg has the exact same dimensions as the 9174 and can be a direct bolt-in replacement.
Last edited by RotaryMachineRx; 10-18-2019 at 02:43 PM.
That looks reasonable for spoolup .... Your 0.92 IWG should do a little better than that too . Pretty amazing that that's at only 11 psi. I'm kinda dubious of some of Turblowns dynos though .... ever since they sold kits based on a dyno showing a Renesis doing 420whp at 10psi on a GT3582.
^ Absolutely, I hear you. 2 things though, this is a Forcefed Dyno sheet, not turblown (turblown posted it because it is their turbo kit), and Forcefed is highly renowned in the Canadian rotary scene (and rotary scene in general). Secondly, I agree I can expect some better spool up than this with the smaller AR of the IWG housing and my plan was to aim for a high boost setting of around 15psi while I am on pump fuel and no W/M. So hoping for better spool-up with slightly more power at a higher boost level than the graph posted above. Again that will be a high boost setting, chances are that once I start to drive this on the street I am going to keep it at a lower 10-12psi and be more than happy with that. The 450whp isn't a hard set target, it is a rough number to aim for; in the end driving feel is going to determine how much boost I decide to stick at for the majority of the time.
The completely custom ex. manifold I have has already proven to fit the BW 9174 IWG in an Rx8 swap, so no worries there. If I end up going with the 8374 or 8474, from what I understand the external dimensions are the same as the 9174, so again should be good to go here.
:
Do you have any pictures of the manifold by its self and installed? I was looking looking at the Turblown EFR Cast unit but have been told it wont fit the 8374 IWG which surprised me because it is tiny. Would love to see your setup.
08-28-2019, 01:01 PM
No doubt I'm going to miss the experience I've had with the Renesis. For the goals I had and my experience with it, it was an exceptional platform and as I mentioned I still LOVE driving the car today. I know the bad rep the Renesis has but with my experience, it is unwarranted. It was honestly a very tough decision for me, I've been back and forth all summer about what route to go (rebuild vs swap). I know the Renesis platform very well and it's familiar; I know I could have rebuilt it for an amazing set-up. In the end the additional 100+ HP with room for more won me over; not to mention the builder I have lined up is local, has built countless drift FD's, and already performed a few Rx8 REW swaps. Even he has admitted though that I am the first to approach him looking to build a reliable, street friendly, clean, functional swap while still retaining the creature comforts. Most others have come to him looking for bare bones, no OMP, no AC/TC/CC, aggressive bridgeport, high idling, race/track/drift engines.
