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there’s no touche; going to assume you can see why the pressure would indicate about the same before the orifice as it does on the engine is all.
Yes correct, I understand. The touche being I was thinking of the system like the orifice wasn't there. I guess the main point I was tryin to ask is..... is the SXE orifice the same as the EFR or is it possible that could explain the differential I am seeing compared to stroker? I'm sure the info is available, I just haven't looked for myself.
Last edited by RotaryMachineRx; 01-18-2021 at 02:36 PM.
The engine has been opened up (just this past weekend finally) and I should have an update with photos later this week. Just getting this sorted out now.
Yes hope that its nothing too serious. I'm thinking the issue could be the oil control rings as you all are thinking I'm sure. Seems to me they could cause a pressure issues after the engine? But I'm no mechanic.
Last edited by Warrior777; 04-06-2021 at 09:27 AM.
This has been a loooooong time coming. After months of waiting I finally have my engine out and torn down. Long story short, it is getting a rebuild. The evidence we have found strongly points to oil starvation as the critical failure of this engine. In my personal opinion the cause of the oil starvation was due to the remote oil filter being plumbed in backwards for the first 200ish Kilometers (125ish miles) with a K&N PS-3002 oil filter. This oil filter has a built in Anti Drain Back Valve. If you're unfamiliar with what that is I recommend doing a google search to understand how that works. I figure the best way for me to describe everything is to post a timeline. Pictures of the torn down engine will follow. As of now I have given the go ahead to start rebuilding this engine with hopes it can be done this spring. This engine ended up running about 700kms (450 miles).
Sept 2019
I hire an engine builder to build me a street ported 13B REW with some custom modifications for the Rx8 swap. I hire the services of a local mechanic/shop who has swapped a few engine into other vehicles before (more details in my posts at the start of this thread). It is a one stop shop for fab, electrical, and getting this engine into the car properly. As you've seen from previous pictures in this thread he did a pretty good job and a clean install for the most part.
October 2019 to Mar 2020
We start by pulling the Renesis and stripping my Greddy turbo kit (which I then sold to help fund the swap). The stock Rx8 fuel system is modified to be in it's current return style setup with Walbro 450 and Radium Jet Pump venturi. Battery is relocated to trunk and front crash bar is modified to fit the larger intercooler.
April 2020
Last week of March the engine is delivered to us from the builder. Within weeks the engine is in the car and ready for it's first start. The engine is test fired a few times and seems to be running okay, idle is high but at that moment it is running on the Adaptronic REW swap base map that I had modified for my application. At this point nothing seems out of the ordinary.
May 2020
Around the first week of May the car is complete. All charge tubing is complete and all systems are tested/set up (timing, injectors, TB, ignition). The car is started and test driven by the installer prior to me ever seeing it complete. A few days later I come to the shop to bring the car home. I start it up for my first time and let it idle until it warms up. At this point on a basemap we are finding that we are unable to drop the RPM below 1500 or the engine sounds like it loses a rotor. Again, being on a basemap we attribute this to a tuning issue. Other than that is seems to cruise excellent. I take the car home (roughly a 50km drive). It seems to cruise excellent but still idle is anywhere between 1500 to 1800 and we cannot get it to drop down without it sounding like it's only running on one rotor.
1 week later I go to meet up with the shop owner to go for a cruise. At this point there is about 100kms (62 miles) on the engine as I was out trying to put some break in miles during the week. As we are standing by the car with it idling it all of a sudden starts having a fit where it sounds like its running on 1 rotor again and begins to start smoking blue/grey out the exhaust real bad. I decide a cruise is a bad idea and limp the car home. After shutting it down the car does not want to start. Cranks but does not start. Seems like it is flooded. After the car cools it fires up again after quite a few cranks. The engine always had a difficult time starting but the heavy smell of fuel and preliminary base tune made me think it was flooding real bad. Still it will only idle around 1500-1800rpm no matter what I set the target RPM to (goal was 1100rpm).
I decide to compression test the engine. First couple tests reveal Mid 80's on front rotor and high 90's, low 100's on rear rotor. I'm not happy about the front numbers so I test it a few times. The compression numbers range anywhere from 66psi to 91psi but I figure its been so flooded maybe some of the seals are sticking and will come up with break-in.
The car begins to have such a hard time starting, a few days later I decide that it needs to go back to the shop to perform some analysis. I drive the car there and perform an oil change. We inspect the oil, it seems a little bit metallic but not crazy amounts, no more than I would suspect from a brand new engine is what I tell myself. I run a magnet through it and it actually picks up very little from the oil. We compression test it again and find sub par numbers (Mid 80's on front rotor, high 90's on rear rotor). The number are low but even at that the engine should be able to get running fine. We start the car after compression testing (which also essentially defloods it) and it runs almost perfect! It idles until fully warmed and then again falls flat on it's face, sounding like it is on one rotor and smoking out the tailpipe. I leave the car at the shop over night.
The next evening the engine builder meets us at the shop. Before he shows up I am looking around the car and notice a puddle of oil under it. I ask the shop owner if I didn't tighten the filter or oil pan plug enough and he says no you did; but I re-routed two of your oil lines to move them away form the steering shaft, I didn't like how close they were to it. I think nothing of this. The engine builder shows up and we cannot get the car to start. We compression test it again cold, numbers are even lower than the day before. We test the TB, fuel injectors, and do an HEI coil test. The front rotor definitely seems to be weak so my new assumption is that we are having an ignition issue. We debate pulling the engine at this time, but even with the low compression numbers, we still think that we should be able to get it to run/idle properly and that it must be a tuning, ignition, or both issue. I decide that before we resort to pulling the engine again we should explore all other systems and components.
June - August 2020
I spend all summer diagnosing things, pulling, replacing, cleaning, testing. I hire Tuned by Shawn and he has a very, very tough time getting the car to idle. For more details on all of this you can read back through my thread. Finally after getting the car to idle somewhat normally with Shawn, but still smoking like crazy from the exhaust and fouling spark plugs every 50 -100 kms I decide that it's best to park the car and pull this engine.
August - September 2020
With the car parked I begin reviewing every single photo and video I have of the build from start to finish. After days of searching and reviewing every detail I finally notice a video, and then a photo from May 2020 showing the remote oil filter plumbed in backwards. I go out to my garage and inspect the oil filter plumbing and see that it is completely different than in the photos. I confront the shop owner about this, asking if back in May when he told me he re-routed some oil lines if this is what he did (ie had the filter plumbed backwards, then switched the line to be running the proper direction through the filter). His exact words are: "Having the filter plumbed backwards doesn't effect oil flow or pressure. I switched them around because the bottom hose was getting too close to the steering shaft, otherwise I would have left it." I tell him that this filter has an ADBV in it and I can't see any way this doesn't affect oil flow/pressure in a bad way. He continues to tell me that, "Know lots of guys who have done it. If you had oil pressure issues your gauge would tell you. (reffering to the dummy gauge on the rx8 dash). Anyways I don't need to be kept in the loop with this anymore, our business has concluded....".
Completely shocked to get such a cold response from someone I thought I was getting to know well, I figured that I should trust the opinion of the guy I paid thousands to do this swap for me. I began trying to do some research on the subject but opinions on it were so back and forth and I was unable to find any solid evidence on what would happen due to the reversed flow that I left it at that. The car was parked and waiting for an engine teardown at this point anyways.
November 2020 - Mar 2021
The engine builder trailers my car back to his shop in November and asks if he can spend some time kicking tires to see if there are any major issues he could find prior to pulling the engine out. He finds relatively minor things, nothing to explain why we are having such a hard time with this engine. Keep in mind that the engine builder at this time still does not know about the reversed oil filter plumbing. It was a very difficult decision for me and I lost a lot of sleep over it; but I decided to respect the shop's opinion and keep that information to myself until we saw inside the engine. I really wanted an unbiased engine tear down and thought it would be in my best interest to keep that info until I knew what was going on internally. In all fairness, I also I didn't expect it to take 4 months to get this engine out and apart.
April 2021
After getting nowhere, and still having no concrete answers the engine builder pulls the engine and tears it down. On Easter Sunday I get a phone call from him telling me that the engine is showing very obvious signs of oil starvation and over heating, but he cannot explain why or what caused it. In all honesty he sounded completely perplexed about it on the phone. At this point I believe it is completely obvious what the source of this is and share the photos of the filter plumbed backwards and the conversation I had with the shop in August 2020 with the engine builder. I'm sure he was unhappy about me holding this info back but after talking, he also understands why I wasn't immediately up front about it. 4 days later, last Thursday I went out to see the torn down engine and had a long discussion with the engine builder on what does and doesn't need replacing. We were able to come to an agreement on terms of a rebuild and he is going to begin this for me as soon as he can.
I'm completely sick of chasing my tail and scratching my head; so the fact that there is obvious evidence as to what went wrong with this engine is a relief. The shop who installed the engine is still sticking to his opinion that the reversed oil filter plumbing would have had no effect on the engine and if it was oil starved it was due to a poor quality engine build. I plan to perform some tests with this same oil filter setup and an external pump and film the results. I'm not sure that will ever be enough to convince this shop; but I hope it proves what I suspect. If I am able to prove that the oil flow is severely restricted when plumbed backwards (even though I am already thoroughly convinced this is the source of this engine failure) I hope the shop will agree with reason and the evidence and change their mind about offering some assistance with this rebuild. Regardless, I'll be taking the steps to get some solid evidence to prove if this was or was not the leading cause to this engine failure; for now I will be moving on with a second engine build and getting this car to the status I was hoping it would be at a year ago.
I had no idea that running an oil filter backwards would cause that many problems.
Its kind of hard to gauge bearing wear from pictures only as my stationary gear bearings all show copper and have no oil pressure/excessive flow issues.
The scuffed up oil control rings don't look good. I reused my junkyard rings and they look new by comparison. Either way the low oil pressure you saw at the turbo is starting to make more sense now.
Either way once you get this engine back, I wouldn't think about starting the motor until you have a working oil pressure gauge. If you are not seeing 110-115 psi on cold startup (pressure regulator open) then you may have a problem.
How much premix where you running as those apex seals don't look good either? My RA super seals where fine after thousands of miles with varying amount of E85 (last time I had the motor open, who knows now), but I am running 1oz/gal of klotz techniplate
I had no idea that running an oil filter backwards would cause that many problems.
Its kind of hard to gauge bearing wear from pictures only as my stationary gear bearings all show copper and have no oil pressure/excessive flow issues.
The scuffed up oil control rings don't look good. I reused my junkyard rings and they look new by comparison. Either way the low oil pressure you saw at the turbo is starting to make more sense now.
Either way once you get this engine back, I wouldn't think about starting the motor until you have a working oil pressure gauge. If you are not seeing 110-115 psi on cold startup (pressure regulator open) then you may have a problem.
How much premix where you running as those apex seals don't look good either? My RA super seals where fine after thousands of miles with varying amount of E85 (last time I had the motor open, who knows now), but I am running 1oz/gal of klotz techniplate
I would think that running a standard filter backwards would be much less of an issue. But with an ADBV in this one, a check valve literally meant to prevent backwards flow through the filter it could not have been a good thing. I was running roughly 10oz of Idemitsu per tank. Originally I had the OMP running as well, but when we started seeing oil burn issues this was disabled to see if it was contributing to the cause.
I'd agree, apex seal wear like that and OCR wear would not normally be attributed to oil starvation. The builder is even willing to admit that. But the fact that it was starved and then given flow after such a short duration by swapping the oil lines back may have allowed the engine to run the way it did on at least one bad bearing with just enough slop in it to cause the wear. It's a very difficult situation to judge for sure. It's why I'm being cautious right now and saying it is of MY OPINION. Also worth noting that this engine did not see boost and was rev limited to 4500RPM.
Oh yeah if it has a check valve that definitely makes sense.
Its hard to imagine you had any oil pressure based on the oiling figure below. It would have pretty much starved the OMP, engine internals, turbo feed, etc.
If I had known you had an aftermarket check valve in the oiling system, I may have suggested you check its operation months ago.
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 04-12-2021 at 10:03 AM.
Oh yeah if it has a check valve that definitely makes sense.
Its hard to imagine you had any oil pressure based on the oiling figure below. It would have pretty much starved the OMP, engine internals, turbo feed, etc.
If I had known you had an aftermarket check valve in the oiling system, I may have suggested you check its operation months ago.
Sorry, just clarifying. There was no aftermarket check valve. The oil filter installed by the shop had an integrated Anti-Drain Back Valve (ADBV), which is a check valve built internally into the filter to prevent oil from flowing out of the filter back to the sump after the engine is shut down. Also the diagram you included is not the correct one for the REW. Here is the correct oil diagram.
Last edited by RotaryMachineRx; 04-12-2021 at 01:07 PM.
Spending money on a remote mount oil filler to make changing the oil filter easier and thus taking better care of the bearings and all things that require oil to lubricate and keep cool.
Then it immediately starves your brand new engine of oil and becomes the antithesis of everything it was supposed to be.
We are pulling for you!
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 04-12-2021 at 02:34 PM.
I know first hand this is true. I ruined my very first renesis reman due to plumbing a remote oil filter adapter kit backwards. I had the car on for 1 mile and it shut off. It was tragic 4K mistake and set my wife’s expectation of my mechanical skills for years to come.
sorry bro...
Sorry to read about your saga, bro. It's so difficult to find a trustworthy, reliable shop generally..., much less for custom work.
Soooo,
- your installer sets up your ride to unwittingly recirculate metal shard carrying, new engine dirty oil,
- discovers his mistake, and corrects it, (d/t your conscientiousness taking the car back to his shop)
- engine fails d/t oil related issues,
- evidence of oil starvation is *independently* discovered on disassembly
...and suddenly your *custom automotive installer* doesn't know the purpose ...nor impact of plumbing in the ADBV oil filter he installed ...backward ??? Smh
Kudos on your perseverance after this setback..., and all the best on establishing some concrete evidence...
I smell something..., and it doesn't smell good.
.
Sorry to read about your saga, bro. It's so difficult to find a trustworthy, reliable shop generally..., much less for custom work.
Soooo,
- your installer sets up your ride to unwittingly recirculate metal shard carrying, new engine dirty oil,
- discovers his mistake, and corrects it, (d/t your conscientiousness taking the car back to his shop)
- engine fails d/t oil related issues,
- evidence of oil starvation is *independently* discovered on disassembly
...and suddenly your *custom automotive installer* doesn't know the purpose ...nor impact of plumbing in the ADBV oil filter he installed ...backward ??? Smh
Kudos on your perseverance after this setback..., and all the best on establishing some concrete evidence...
I smell something..., and it doesn't smell good.
.
This sums it up nicely yup. The only thing I can say is the engine had most likely "failed" prior to me taking it back to the shop; I don't believe oil was completely blocked (after all the dummy gauge on the dash was still showing flow), just severely restricted. Even after the first oil change the night before he swapped the lines back there wasn't any alarming signs of metal shavings. After he corrected the plumbing it made it essentially impossible for me to diagnose; I'm assuming after the flow was corrected the engine was able to run "well enough" for my 4500rpm limited, no boost conditions to prevent a total seize up leading me to wasting time chasing my tail over, injectors, ignition, timing, tuning, and every other manner of item one might try to diagnose before resorting to an engine pull.
The signs were there all along though; in hindsight I wish I had gone with my gut and just had the engine pulled right off the start. Lesson learned.
Appreciate the words of encouragement from everyone
Did a little bench test this weekend with the exact same remote mount, exact same filter, and same weight oil that I had in my engine when the filter was plumbed backwards.
Video 1: No filter flow through pump
Video 2: Correct flow through filter (takes a min for the pump to fill the filter up)
Video 3: Reversed flow through filter
Video 4: No filter flow again to show pump didn't crap out, was just being stalled out by the no flow through the reversed filter.
likely the only reason it wasn’t a worse result than it was is because the filter must have internally been blown through some by the high pressure build up with the oil pump directly chain-driven off the e-shaft.
01-18-2021, 02:27 PM
