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Boost Creep. Gate pressure is usually around 12-14 psi.
Now once I get over ,5400 RPMs, you can see the 50 mm gate has a difficult time bleeding off pressure as it was fluctuating between 12-17 psi. I kept hitting 16-17 psi boost cut.by 6,000 RPMs. I will try to up the boost cut and see if the creep subsides or gets worse
That's not how boost creep looks normally. Seems like your WG is chattering for some reason.
it normally seems to flutter like that in the high rpms, just may have had the boost cut too low for the waste gate action. Have to remember that I added 35% to the downpipe and mid pipe so I essentially took a restriction out of the system which is making it more difficult to slow the turbo down via Watergate bleed...
The logs say "overboost" so obviously it was trying to cut... I will try changing the filtering settings on the MAP sensor aswell.... I really will try anything that doesn't involve adding a second gate.
as long as it is fluttering between 12 and 17 psi with a mean of 14.5 psi I am okay with that, just dont wanna see it go too much higher with a 700+ wheel turbo....
I could put a softer spring in it, I know that won't help with boost creep, but maybe it will help it not slam closed then immediately have to open again, and do more of a floaty dance?????
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 05-21-2020 at 01:32 PM.
I see ...why don't you eliminate the overboost settting altogether and ease up the rev range in steps to make sure it doesn't go awol . Then you will know what you are dealing with.
Well I upped the cut to 18 psi, and it cut again on a few peaks of 17 psi.... I don't know whats up with the software, but i'll set the cut higher and try again,.
I watched the boost gauge the whole time and it never moved above 15 psi so I may try and move the wastegate vacuum lines to see if that smooths things out. May need to try another map sensor as a last resort.
Anyways I made it to about 6700 this last pull before it hit boost cut. From the boost gauge and the average map line its right at 15 psi.
Car feels sluggish but I have taken timing out of it and only have ab out 20% ethanol content. Was only gaining about 8.2 MPH/S through third gear which is way down from the 11+ I am used to.
I am sure once I turn it up a bit more, am able to run the RPMs to 8,000+, and get more aggressive with the timing, speed should pick up....
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 05-22-2020 at 06:58 PM.
My boost gauge wasn't matching my MAP sensor so I used my compressor and 3rd gauge to dial in my MAP sensor calibration. It appears it was reading almost 3 psi high which makes me feel a bit better.
Was able to pull up to about 7700 RPMs before the cut, my boost gauge was at 15 psi and creeped up to 16 psi above 6500 RPMs.
Looks like it holds 10-11 psi to 5200 RPMs then linearly creeps up to 16 psi by redline.
Still running mainly on 93 octane and timing would have been a little big soft because of the false high MAP reading,.
Still a bit rich dipping in the low 10s during the run.
IATs hit 116 F
Acceleration still only 8.5 MPH/S.
Once I get a handle on the creep and get the baseline fuel curve dialed in, I will start adding WG duty cycle because 14 psi at 6,000 RPMs just ain't cutting it.
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 05-23-2020 at 08:10 AM.
well try to remember that it not coming on hard early is exactly what you were wanting to reduce drivetrain stress.
and with it only holding 10-16 psig across that higher rev range of course it isn’t going to feel that great compared to 2x that even on the smaller turbo
Calibrated MAP sensor to within 0.5 psi
Switched air filter
Moved the second methanol/water nozzle to the charge pipe before the throttle body
Changed the MAP filtering which seems to have worked in stabilizing the MAP signal
Took the car out for a early morning dyno pull to see what the changes did.
Wastegate Duty Cycle 0
12 psi creeping up to 17 psi at 8,000 RPMs
10 psi by 4,360 RPMs, which is only 360 RPMs slower than the 362 with 0.91 housing and 76mm turbine
3rd gear from 40-100 mph
A/F 11.9 (start) 11.1 (end)
Total timing 16-20
Injecting WM at about 700cc/min (350cc each nozzle)
Ethanol content 20%
0 knock
Total injector duty about 66% at 8,000 (100% of 1000, 100% of 1000, 25% of 1650)
IAT 87-109 F (delta 22)
Acceleration through 3rd gear up to 8.8 MPH/S
Can start adding some duty cycle to the turbo now
Another fun thing with a second methanol/water nozzle so close to the UIM. Here is a log of me cruising around and hitting the test button 5-6 times over a minute I got the UIM temps to drop from 95 F to 53 F. Ambient temp was like 75 F. After i parked my car I went out and touch the cold UIM to verify because I almost didn't believe. Another reason why methanol/water injection + E85 isn't such a bad idea. You could use this method to freeze the UIM before a roll race or 1/4 mile run.
Update
Just did a pull at 25 duty cycle and no change in boost output. I kind of expected it since I don't seem to get any real response until 35-40. By 55-60 the boost pressure doubles. So about 40-60% is when things start to happen.
Will try 40% duty cycle on the next pull bias above 5,500 RPMs. Looking to create a centrifugal supercharger boost curve to keep torque down and tires planted....
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 05-24-2020 at 10:40 AM.
Moved the duty cycle above 5,500 to 40 (below 5500 was 35)
First pull this morning and I saw the gauge up to 20 psi by 6000 and got out before ignition cut.
Wasn't able to get a normal hit was moving fast already so it was lazy to get up on boost
Wastegate Duty Cycle 35
10 psi creeping up to 20 psi, 17 psi by 6,000 RPMs 3rd gear from 60-100 mph A/F 12.0 (start) 11.0 (end) Total timing 16-19, 10 split Injecting WM at about 1000cc/min (500 cc each nozzle) Ethanol content 28% 0 knock Total injector duty about 77% at 7500 (100% of 1000, 100% of 1000, 50% of 1650) IAT 89-109 F (delta 20) Acceleration through 3rd gear up to 10.5 MPH/S
Added approximately 3 pounds of boost and picked up about 19% more acceleration from previous pull (8.8 vs 10.5). Another pound or so above 5,500 and I may be in the 11.0+ MPH/S, which i usually only see in cold weather on the 362 turned up....
The difference is i'm on 17-20 psi vs 24-28 psi. If the weather was colder and I was on a high percentage of ethanol (more timing), I think things would be more comparable.
IAT were going up 40+ F with the 362 and high boost, and i'm only seeing about 20 F now on medium boost, The turbo efficiency is starting to show.
It appears that I may soon be fighting maxed injectors as I was at 77% overall duty at 7,500 and 20 psi. I may raise of the boost cut to 23 and try a duty cycle of 38 next which should be good for 1-2 psi over the rev range.
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 05-25-2020 at 08:44 AM.
1000cc of wm seems alot imo, ive done some research recently on the subject and it made me downgrade my 1000cc to a single 500cc and so far i can say its reacting well
with too much water you lose lots of hp
unless you dont have enough injector flow i woudnt put that much wm
Well i'm running 2 parts meth and 1 part water. So it is roughly 666/333 cc/min. Right now the controller is set to on at 10 psi and fully on at 20 psi. I will probably switch the upstream injector to a 1000 cc/min and set it on at 10 psi and fully on at 25 psi to keep the progressive movement of the injection up to 25 psi. At 25 psi I should see roughly 1000cc of meth and 500 of water. Even if it robs me of some horsepower it makes me feel safer and I need the BTUs as i'm running out of injector...
Great job on the welding. I'm going to be learning that soon for my swap. Eventually, I post a thread here but waiting until I have all the parts. Hope to build the engine later this summer.
Make sure to post up a sound clip of the exhaust, I'm interested in hearing it.
Here is a sound clip with the exhaust silencer in (quieter) , but the car is still up in the air (louder). This was taken about a week ago. I still don't think it will be easy to fool someone into this being stock...
Overall the loudness is the same with a bit less rasp.
New Pull
Warm and Humid
Wastegate Duty Cycle 35 up to 5,000, 40 at 5,500+ 16 psi creeping up to 23 psi at 8,000 RPMs 10 psi by 4,350 RPMs, 20 psi by 6,000 3rd gear from 40-100 mph A/F 11.9 (start) 10.9 (end) Total timing 14-18 Injecting WM at about 1000cc/min (2 nozzles) Ethanol content 35% 0 knock Total injector duty about 85% at 8,000 (100% of 1000, 100% of 1000, 66% of 1650) IAT 93-120 F (delta 27) Acceleration through 3rd gear up to 11.0 MPH/S
With heat and humidity, I am convinced this is about the fastest the car has gone. I will have to check back through the logs....
I can only go up to 40% ethanol and maybe another pound or two until injectors are maxed.
Found a good comparison between the turbos from 65000-7500 RPMs. Both have the same acceleration rate ~10.5 MPH/S, but you can see the difference in boost levels....
21-23 psi for the S369 and 27 psi for the S362, even the fuel consumption appears to be about the same with 66% on the last injector...
362
S369
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 05-29-2020 at 07:43 PM.
I have been in the mid 11's to high 11s, but it was on like 40-50 F cool dry nights. For Florida summer this is about the best I have seen. Car usually runs like a pig in the humid summers.
I am fine on the pumps. I have a 400 LPH AEM that runs 100% of the time and a Bosch 320 LPH that kicks on at 5 psi boost pressure. Each pump has a dedicated 6AN line that t's into a 8AN feed to the rail....
I will get up to 40% ethanol and maybe peaking out at 24 psi and see where that gets me....
congratulations on running the longest and best "For Sale" thread in the rotary community.
you currently have 4 1000 cc injectors and 2 1650s.
7300 CC total Gross deliverability
X.8 to remove lag
5840
X.95 running at 95% duty
5256 CC Net into the motor.
5256 CCs/Min = 1.39 Gallons per Minute
1.39 X 6.35 = 8.83 pounds of fuel assuming 100% gasoline
assume 10.5 AFR
8.83 X 10.5 = 92.7 pounds of air
92.7 X 7.536 = 699 rotary rwhp from present injectors on 100% gas.
mixing ethanol into base fuel:
85 G 15 E
.85 X 699 = 594
.15 X 699 = 105 X .66 (to adjust BTU content) = 69
594 + 69 = 663 rotary rwhp 85/15
70 G 30 E
.7 X 699 = 489
.3 X 699 = 210 X .66 = 139
489 + 139 = 628 rotary rwhp from 70/30
50 G 50 E
.5 X 699 = 316
.5 X 699 = 316 X .66 = 209
316 + 209 = 525 rotary rwhp from 50/50
AI
666 CC/Min Meth is .18 Gallons per minute and 10,305 BTUs
333 CC/Min Water is .09 GPM and negative 728 BTUs
10,305 - 728 = 9577 BTUs = equivalent of .08 GPM of gas X 6.35 = .52 pounds X 10.5 AFR = 5.46 pounds air per minute
5.46 X 7.536 = 41 additional rotary rwhp from AI
1000 CC/Min Meth is .26 Gallons per minute and 14,885 BTUs
500 CC/Min Water is .13 Gallons per minute and 1,051 negative BTUs
14,885 - 1051 = 13,834 BTUs equivalent to .12 GPM of gas X 6.35 = .76 pounds X 10.5 AFR = 8 pounds air per minute
8 X 7.536 = 60 additional rotary rwhp from AI
while there are many ways to get it done i have ran, with a brief unsuccessful detour to E85 for the Texas Mile, gasoline as a base fuel with between 1000 and 1500 CC of meth. there's the same amount of BTUs in 91 and 93 octane so you can make the same power IF you can raise the octane with methanol. i prefer the additional internal lubricity of gasoline. nothing beats lowering IATs like methanol. you do need an uprated AI system for 100% meth... Alkycontrol is the brand i have run since 2003.
continued good wishes for your project. the 69 will shine and distance itself from the 62 as you raise the boost.
Nobody has made an offer I would let the car go for the cost of a MSP rebuild. Its not that i'm not having fun with the car, but I am just tired of having to make every single part myself and have no aftermarket support (i.e. T56 swap kit etc.). In the mean time I will just keep pushing the envelope. Would like to get into a FD if possible.
05-20-2020, 04:29 PM
It has that distinctive REW "bright note", and brap...
I would let the car go for the cost of a MSP rebuild. Its not that i'm not having fun with the car, but I am just tired of having to make every single part myself and have no aftermarket support (i.e. T56 swap kit etc.). In the mean time I will just keep pushing the envelope. Would like to get into a FD if possible.