Sue Esponte

I'm not even sure how to respond to that...because it is, perhaps, one of the craziest things I've ever heard. No offense, of course.

The direction in which your car is parked in a garage will have little to no effect on the amount of carbon monoxide that gets into the garage or esapes into your house. Unless your garage is of warehouse proportions (mine is not) it won't make a bit of difference. Aside from the carbon monoxide issue, I don't like the idea of leaving a running vehicle unattended for lengthy periods. Too many things can go wrong. An owner shouldn't have to leave a car running unattended anywhere, especially in a garage. And, an owner shouldn't have to leave their garage door open to the elements because of an engineering issue in a modern car. If I have to move a car out of the garage to get something large out of my garage in the middle of winter, the last thing I want to do is leave my garage door open, or my car running in my garage for 15 minutes while my car warms up. (Btw, no one has mentioned that it is also bad practice to let your engine reach temperature by merely sitting and idling for 15 minutes. It's much better on the engine and exhaust to warm up the car by driving it lightly.)

I'm also tired of hearing people say that "every car can flood - it's not just the rotary". My house can also be hit by a meteor today. Hey, it's happened to plenty of people and I'm glad I have insurance on my house, but odds are in my favor that it won't happen. Face it folks, people on the "Camry" message boards aren't having this discussion. Fact: I can move any of my cars in and out of my garage without warming them up and not worry whether they will restart. Would I make a habit of it? No. The argument that it's not good practice to do this misses its mark. It's also not a good idea to leave your lights on without the car running. Most modern car batteries can handle it if it you happen to run into a store, have a brain fart and forget to shut the lights off.

I'm sure certain people driving their RX8s in NYC would just love having their cars sit on 125th Street running...sure...it's safe...really.

-Eric

nt5k

Then don't buy one..

Sue Esponte

And yet another thoughtless remark...

As others on the board are able to understand, regardless of how much some people (e.g., enthusiasts) love the RX8 (and I'd consider myself one...as I'm still considering a purchase despite the whole 'flooding' issue), in 2004, the general public expects a $30K car to start when they turn the key. They expect to be able to move it in and out of a garage at will, leave it with a valet, and generally abuse it for 75-100K miles. The fact that you have to deviate from what I'll call "standard operating procedure" with the RX8 won't be perceived as a plus...and without the support (read: finances) of the general public, Mazda won't be able to support its rotary program for mass consumption.

People can keep their heads in the sand as long as they'd like...unfortunately, it will do nothing to change public perception.

Unfortunately, too many enthusiasts are blind to the faults of their own cars. I make excuses all of the time for the quirks of my favorite cars...but what may be a quirk to me may not be acceptable to others. The thinking typically goes..."So, the electronics [or substitute another problem, like 'flooding'] in my radio may go screwy every now and then? Whatever, I'll live with it...it's still a TT [or substitute another car, like an RX8]." Besides, a radio losing its way once a year (if ever) is one thing, but a car not starting is entirely another.

-Eric

nt5k

I don't see why it's so thoughtless. You're obviously concerned with the flooding 'issue'. So just wait until a fix is implemented before buying one..

Otherwise you're just beating a dead horse..

rotarygod

People just need to realize that you are buying an unconventional engine and that it may need some unconventional treatment. To all of those that say crap like it "shouldn't happen to a modern engine on the market today" then the answer is plain and simple. Find a way to fix it yourself or deal with it. Bitching and moaning won't change anything. If you learn how to avoid the situation in the first place then you won't have a problem. My 1st gen RX-7 will flood every time for ANYONE else trying to start it. I know how to do it though so it doesn't ever happen to me. What should or could happen is irrelevant once it does happen. Saying "don't buy one" may or may not be a thoughtless remark but it is a realistic one if people can't accept the fact that the RX-8 a car with an entirely different type of engine than every single other new car for sale out there on the road today. Sometimes being harsh and blatant is the only way to get the point across. Maybe we shouldn't expect an engine to do this today. But some of them do. There's only a couple of choices. Don't own one, fix the issue yourself, learn how to avoid it, bitch and moan senselessly forever. I hate to be harsh and am not attacking anyone (although I fully expect some close minded person in denial to attack me for this!) but these are the only realistic options. The rotary has been more prone to flooding than the average piston engine for over 40 years. It doesn't mean that it neccessarily will or won't flood though. Basically the Renesis as much as some hate to admit it, isn't really that different from every previous rotary. The issue will probably always be there in some limited way. It's a different engine. Is it really so unreasonable to think that it may in fact need some slightly different treatment? No!

DaveT

Good post rotarygod. AMEN. 'nuff said

NAVILESRX8

iTrader: (1)

hahaha...........man...people will complain and complain about the same thing, until they hear the answer they want. It isn't going to happen. This flooding issue is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo overated. It's not the apocolypse. If it happens once....you should have the common sense to prevent it from happening ever again. No big deal. Now...I'm ready to hear every "what if" scenario out there. You aren't going to get a helpful answer from me....

Senseny

If anyone happened to be concerned about my FD situation, its all better. I couldn't get the car to start because of kill switches I installed for my dry cell battery. Apparently all of the cranking required to get it going, would trip the switches, which are in essence breakers. But hooked up to a battery charger, the breaker held and the car finally started, cleared the gas and runs well.
That being said, no one has a right to tell me what is an overrated issue for a new 30K car. I was okay with the FD flooding because it is a 10+ year old car and has a different purpose for me. But the 8 flooding would really **** me off.
BTW, especially for this application, turbo timers are not dangerous for a garage and yes you can leave your car run for the 30 seconds on the streets of any city. See, a turbo timer doesn't operate when the e-brake is down, so when you pull your warm 8 into a garage, you leave the ebrake down and the car shuts right off. It is simple, and I am not going into this deeply again. I have two turbo vehicles both with turbo timers and these devices are simple and safe.

Japan8

I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. You HAVE heard of a turbo timer? You know what that's for right? Well that's running ona modern high tech and expensive engine. Treating your turbo like **** over time will result in turbo failure, and the car will run like ****. Diesel engines are better left on than shut off and restarted after a short period of time.... Hmm it sounds like other "modern" engines have this problem as well in this day and age.

Sue Esponte

Let's make a few things clear...

1) I can't speak for others, but I wasn't complaining, bitching or moaning about the flooding issue. Dismissing it, however, as a non-issue misses the point since the public won't buy a car that it perceives as unreliable. A car that won't start is a car the public will perceive as unreliable. No cars sales = no RX8. In my humble opinion, that's a bad thing...but hey, I'm just bitching and moaning, right?

2) I'm very familiar with turbo timers. And the purpose of a turbo timer has NOTHING to do with warming the car up...in fact, it's just the opposite. The point is to cool it down. Regardless, name a modern production car equipped with one straight from the factory? Again, enthusiast vs. public. Take a public poll and ask them about a turbo timer and watch the curious looks on their faces. What's acceptable to you and I as enthusiasts...things we'd live with because we love our cars so much...don't work with the general public. As an owner of a turbodriven car, I typically let my car idle before shutting it down to do let the turbo circulate and cool, but I also know most owners probably don't. Great for me and whomever buys the car from me. Have you taken a look at most of the other cars on the road? Ever notice that yours is a little cleaner? More cared for? Does yours have a name? Like I said previously, the American public wants a car to abuse, whether it's a minivan, a sedan, or a sports car. They want a car that will last them X years without fail. They don't want to think about anything but getting it gas. Most don't even car about oil...you think I'm putty Jiffy Lube anything in my cars? (No offense to Jiffy Lube...I guess it's better than nothing.) The public though...they're not like us...but they're the ones buying cars and keeping the ones we love in production. Of all of the S2K, Z4, Boxster or even Miata owners in the world, have many do you think have ever seen, been to or even heard of an SCCA event? I'd put my savings on a very small number/percent of owners....yet they all own a sports car.

Hey, live with your head in the sand if you want. Life might even be easier to deal with there. I just hope Mazda doesn't lose sight of the public.

"Nuff' said"

-Eric

P.S. Most modern turbodriven cars are also equipped with auxiliary fans to assist cooling after the car's been shut off. Why? To deal with the daily abuse it will see from most owners who wouldn't ever buy a car equipped with a turbo timer.

Japan8

Wasn't me that said it... I think flooding sucks, but then again if I want to be different it sometimes comes at some small cost. American musclecar torque... bad gas mileage and likely until the 2005 mustang and C5 vette... really crummy quality cars (overal). If you wanted German... they are money pits... not as bad as italian (nothing is that bad except Renault). Well BMW was really bad during the 80's, and now they are decent, but hell... the dealer want to charge something like $2000 for a new radiator?! The car is a late 90's model. IN another thread you can hear the stories about Porsche from owners. These are all mainstream and most of them people would call "reliable." But the truth is as a daily driver they are expensive to keep and quirky. Don't think the public won't buy something they perceive to have some intrinsic value. As we say in IT... "user education."

You sound like you know law... which means you should know logic. Why did you miss the connection? Wamring Vs cooling is of absolutely no importance here. What is is the fact that the device keeps your engine running after you've shut down the car. What is important is that there is a necessity to do something extra to preserve the life of the engine of your car. It's not just "plug and play." Maybe few Americans usse turbo timers, but few cars sold in America have turbos. If you look at Japan and Europe, there are many cars with turbos... sports cars and turbo diesels (which you said nothing about).

You want the general public to do something... they teach them. It of course costs... but hey. In general since Mazda is a Japanese nameplate, people will expect Toyota-like levels of quality and reliablity. And yes the 3, 6 and MPV will deliver on this pretty well, but the 8 and 7 are different beasts. As we all know the rotary is a different engine and you have to educate the pubic about it... its benefits and even the extra work it takes to maintain it. Given a well-planned, executed and funded campaign plus some time... people will pick the rotary engined cars for uniqueness and maybe one day because it is hydrogen powered... thus more range than electric (as an example).

Nubo

Great points. It seems to me that Mazda should definitely invest in a better user-orientation experience for the RX-8 buyers. Advice from the dealers seems to be all over the map. The various guides have bits of information, but nothing to give someone a comprehensive idea of what's going on. As someone mentioned, the short-trip procedure is advised on the basis of engine wear, not flooding. Personally, I was advised that the engine uses oil, and "don't baby it". All well and good but without the education I've received here I would be raising the roof if a flood ever disabled the vehicle. But knowing the issues beforehand has changed my perspective and would do the same for most buyers. This is the difference between loving a car along with its quirks or loving it until you discover the quirks by way of being stranded. Needing a base of enthusiasts isnt then a problem. It's how you create the enthusiasts.

Charles Cope

I think this discussion has just come up with a possible solution that Mazda (or an enterprising third party vendor) could "sell".

The turbo timer is the right technology, just backwards. Whether built in by Mazda or as an add-on, the Rotory Anti-Flood Timer (RAFT) would either keep track of how long the engine has run or, better yet, the temperature! If the calibrated engine run time was too short or the temperature was below the calibrated value, a flashing light saying "controlled shutdown" would alert the driver that the engine would remain on unit the time/temp was reached. Problem solved.

The best part is how you all figured out how to explain it. The marketing people could have a great time, extending the mystique of the rotory and introducing the RAFT feature!

The turbo and diesel engine control devices seem to be accepted as necessary for their respective technologies. Marketing could explain how this new RAft device is the latest improvement/advancement of the Renesis technology. Yes, its BS, but isn't that what marketing is all about!

Seriously, it would be a piece of cake for Greddy or Canzoomer to produce such a device, optimized for the cold start flooding issue.

Hey, maybe we should start a naming contest!

Sue Esponte

First of all, remedying a quirky ownership issue during the first 3-4 years of ownership for most any modern vehicle will not cost the owner a dime since those issues will likely fall under the vehicle's general warranty. The propensity of a car to require fixing is what will determine whether the general public keeps the car beyond the expiration of those warranties. If a turbo blows in year 2, you might be less likely to retain the car if you know the next time it goes you're going to be footing the bill.

Second, having owned BMWs, Audis, Saabs, and Volvos I find your comments about costs somewhat outdated and uninformed. 1984 was 20 years ago. All of the above manufactuers actually offer free scheduled maintenance for the first several years of ownership (which for several manufacturers actually includes replacement of wear and tear items as well), and replacement parts are typically not that expensive beyond the warranty period, until you get into repairs that tend to be expensive for any car. And, yes, an extensive repair job on a $100K twin turbo Porsche is definitely going to cost a great deal more than repairs on a $15K Chevy Cavalier. Aside from the costs of extended ownership beyond 5-6 years, what ARE uninformly expensive, however, are labor costs...but those outrageous fees run the spectrum from Chevy to Porsche.


1) Thanks, you just proved my point. And, your response is way off mark...since my point was merely that turbodriven cars don't come with turbotimers from the manufacturer. It's your job to educate yourself and figure out why. Try rereading some of my previous posts for a few hints.
2) Every K-Car built by Chrysler in the '80s was equipped with a small turbo. Turbo doesn't necessarily equate to 'speed' or 'exotic'. Toyotas, Mazdas and many other '80s car were also equipped with turbos...
3) Not many modern cars in the US are equipped with turbos? Oh, okay...quickly off the top of my head (and without getting into exotics or spending too much time)...

Audi TT 180 & 225
Audi A4 1.8T
Audi A6 2.7T

BMW M5 ('05-'06)

Chrylser PT Cruiser ('04 GT Convertible model)

Dodge Neon SRT-4

Subaru Forester XT
Subaru Impreza WRX and STi
Subaru Baja Turbo

Mitsubishi Lancer Evo

Saab 9-3
Saab 9-5

Volkswagen Golf 1.8T, GTI, R32
Volkswagen Passat 1.8T
Volkswagen New Beetle Turbo

Volvo S40 2.5T ('05 model)
Volvo V50 2.5T ('05 model)
Volvo S60 2.5T & R
Volvo V70 2.5T and R
Volvo S80 T6
Volvo XC90 2.5T and T6

And, I won't get into all of the supercharged cars from Mercedes (including its AMG models), Ford, MINI, etc.

Many cars in the US ARE equipped with turbos...none with turbotimers from the factory, and relatively few with aftermarket turbotimers. This subject is really beginning to bore me...

-Eric

Roaddemon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sue Esponte
[B]And yet another thoughtless remark...

As others on the board are able to understand, regardless of how much some people (e.g., enthusiasts) love the RX8 (and I'd consider myself one...as I'm still considering a purchase despite the whole 'flooding' issue), in 2004, the general public expects a $30K car to start when they turn the key. They expect to be able to move it in and out of a garage at will, leave it with a valet, and generally abuse it for 75-100K miles. The fact that you have to deviate from what I'll call "standard operating procedure" with the RX8 won't be perceived as a plus...and without the support (read: finances) of the general public, Mazda won't be able to support its rotary program for mass consumption.

People can keep their heads in the sand as long as they'd like...unfortunately, it will do nothing to change public perception.(UNQUOTE)




I personnally don't care what general public piston heads think or expect. It's a rotory engine. It's different and that's why I bought it. I'm more than happy to see the general Joe Public stay away from this car. It's not within their scope of understanding.
Rotory engines are really tough and love to be driven hard. It's 160k engine. People with overconcerns about flooding should stick with their boring Honda Accords or whatevers. If lack of public support stops production then I cherish mine that much more as different and priceless. I'll keep it forever.
Besides, other Mazda main stream car sales should keep the rotory afloat. It's a showcase model. I predict the 8 will be around a long long time.

RobDickinson

Flooding isnt unique to the 8, 7 or cheap cars.

Many Jag XJ owners have the same problems.

Japan8

[You can think whatever you want, it doesn't change the fact that a BMW dealer in Seattle, Washington tried to charge my aunt almost $2,000 for a new radiator (labor is included) for her '96(? the last year before the major body change) BMW 328. She ended up paying $1100 to have BMW specialists that race, etc. do the job.

The 3-series is not the Porsche 911 Turbo of the BMW line... it's not the expensive nor exotic. I think it's fair to use it here.

You have a point there, but you can get them from as a dealer install option here. And the fact that such seemingly large number of users have one suggests that there is some acceptance of using the device.

Did I say all cars sold in the US? if I did I apologize... I was refering to US Uautomarkers. Although... are there THAT many (relative to the number of different models made) turbo cars in the US market?


You mentioned that "relatively few with aftermarket turbotimers." There are some that come equipped? And even if none come equipped... why can't use this system on rotaries? have YOU surveyed people to see what they thought AFTER being fully educated in a positive way about the rotary and the timer? Your opinion is "no way", but maybe with education the market feels a bit different than you...?

And you still (again) haven't said a word about diesel. It may not be a big deal in the US yet, but it is in Japan and Europe... the day when the US govt. tries to force it upon us may come.

guy321

This may work. But Microsoft would end up designing the firmware for the device and it would just stay on all the time saying "controlled shutdown" until the car runs out of gas, or you pull the battery.

Sue Esponte

Once again you proved my point. Did one dealer try to take advantage of your aunt? Sounds like it. There are a lot of bad dealers (of any make) out there. And, you proved that you can find a reasonable mechanic for a BMW. Lesson: shop around.

I know very few people who actually use turbo timers, and those who do are not "casual owners". I'd argue that those who do are likely enthusiasts.

The majority of the cars I listed (with some noted exceptions, e.g., Lancer Evo) are volume cars for those manufacturers. VW is nothing without its Golf/Jetta, Audi nothing without the sale of its A4, etc.

Read what I wrote. I said that none are equipped from the factory and relatively few with aftermarket turbotimers. Relative to total sales, few people actually equip their cars with an aftermarket turbotimer.

I never said that a turbotimer couldn't be used on a rotary. Again, please read what I wrote. I'm not even sure how you read that from any of my posts. My only comment about a turbotimer or any equipment that required a mass produced car to continue running after it was effectively "shut off" will not be perceived as a benefit by the public. It would also be, contrary to some belief, a legal nightmare. I can see the headlines now. 60 Minutes would love it...."Child wanders into garage with car running on rotary timer; Dies of CO poisoning". You think unintended acceleration (something that never happened but almost put Audi out of business in the US) was a good story? Like I've said over and over and over...the public wants to drive cars it doesn't have to think about; cars they can abuse and mistreat for a lot of miles and years. They don't want "different". If they did, Alfa Romeo would still be a concern in the US. After all, they were just "quirky" Italian cars. And, like it or not, Mazda DOES roll up to Ford in the control chain. If Ford doesn't like what it sees coming out of the RX8 and can't justify it, Mazda could very well be selling a Mustang based sports car.

You also missed the point that, as an enthusiast, I'm someone who's more likely to use a turbotimer or similar product and not question the need. The general public won't.

There's nothing on which to comment. Diesel engines, however improved they may be over older models are still not a concern in the US and Mazda needs the US market in order to compete globally. The US' perception of diesel fuel still harkens back to the dirty, noisy engines equipped on some '70s Mercedes and other Euro-models. However inaccurate that perception might be, it's a critical concern to manufacturers. Alternate fuel vehicles are in our future but ones based on fossil fuels won't cut it for the long run. Mazda's not currently working on a diesel vehicle and if there is ever a diesel Mazda in the US it will likely be run on a different form of diesel fuel (e.g. vegetable based or "biodiesel"). But this is a different topic entirely.

Artifex

You generally wouldn't think its a big deal. Luckily I stalled and flooded before I entered cross traffic. Had I entered cross traffic it quite possibly could have been the apocolypse for me

Unlike my FC the 8s flooding episodes are completely unpredicatable and seemed to be without cause.

Charles Cope

Back to my original question... are the symptoms the same? Does the engine RPM race (no compression)?

Did you have it towed or were you able to get it started again by yourself?

Artifex

For me the symptoms are not the same, I didn't get the rpm play you would expect. I know what you mean here, the T2 would bounce pretty high when it flooded. And finally the car had to be towed.

The differences in behavior is what makes me believe flooding on the 8 is a compound issue. I posted in another thread that after checking the plugs one night I found liquid oil completely filling the crown of the plugs such that no spark would be possible until the motor purged that oil.

MEGAREDS

I'm curious as to why you were unable to get the car started if you had the ability to remove the plugs. I was under the impression that if I had been competent enought to remove the plugs when my car flooded, I could have cleaned them, reinstalled them and the car would then have started... at least after a bit of time for the chambers to dry. Am I right about that?

zbee

Her is one method how you can prevent rotary engines from flooding and I actually suggest this method to everyone
who get already paranoia with this flooding issue.
This modification have being used already on many rx7 cars with
success.
Add one switch to the dash which control the fuel pump energy
When you shut off the engine turn off the fuelpump and wait that the engine died. turn off ignation after.When you start turn on fuelpump to start.this is also additional security for your car
and you will never have flooding again and cost are cheap.
When you get flooded becouse you stall your engine.
You also get one secure way to cut off fuel instead off flooring the
pedal.

Artifex

GRRRR . The car did not stall at home and I do not carry my toolchest with me(shouldnt have to with a brand new car). I pulled the plugs two weeks after getting the car back from the dealer to answer another thread asking what kind of plugs the dealer replaced the originals with. The car was not flooded when I pulled the plugs. The point was that it was quite surpising to see that the normal state of the plugs is that they are covered in oil. Netiher of my past rx-7s ever looked like that.