"Abuse" Mazda's scapegoat
#76
missinmahseven,
Like I said in my message, getting your foot into the gas does NOT kill milage. Sitting at a light and low rpm driving in traffice does. Raptor said his freeway milage is not too far off the mark. I suggested he go on some back roads and see what that milage is like. Gather some more data is all I am suggesting.
Mike
Like I said in my message, getting your foot into the gas does NOT kill milage. Sitting at a light and low rpm driving in traffice does. Raptor said his freeway milage is not too far off the mark. I suggested he go on some back roads and see what that milage is like. Gather some more data is all I am suggesting.
Mike
#78
lol, i'ld like to be doing some "research" right about now.
as far as the computer thing goes raptor, maybe dealers do rely on it to much. The only problem is it is nearly impossible for a technician to find a problem when the computer doesn't think there is one. Sure you could spend all day chasing something down only to find out there are no problems, might even get lucky and guess right about replacing a part, but the clear majority of the time your replacing perfectly good parts that don't fix any problems. Then the customer is even more pissed off because you've told him there is a problem by trying to fix it, but you didn't fix anything, so they have to keep coming back in while you guess some more. Its a catch 22 sometimes trying to help people out
on one hand you feel better because they are attempting to fix your problem and on the other you have to keep bringing it back, all the while loosing more confidence in the dealership than before.
So, my question to you is....would you rather a dealership guess and replace wrong parts...or wait until they actually have an idea about what's going on?
as far as the computer thing goes raptor, maybe dealers do rely on it to much. The only problem is it is nearly impossible for a technician to find a problem when the computer doesn't think there is one. Sure you could spend all day chasing something down only to find out there are no problems, might even get lucky and guess right about replacing a part, but the clear majority of the time your replacing perfectly good parts that don't fix any problems. Then the customer is even more pissed off because you've told him there is a problem by trying to fix it, but you didn't fix anything, so they have to keep coming back in while you guess some more. Its a catch 22 sometimes trying to help people out
on one hand you feel better because they are attempting to fix your problem and on the other you have to keep bringing it back, all the while loosing more confidence in the dealership than before.
So, my question to you is....would you rather a dealership guess and replace wrong parts...or wait until they actually have an idea about what's going on?
#79
To be honest I would accept either, having worked on cars myself I understand what you are saying and how hard it can be to find a problem. I also understand that some people just don't understand sometimes that your doing your best and trying to help them. Instead they start to rip you guys which is wrong.
What I do find completely unacceptable is when the service manger tells me every thing is fine just live with it. That is what really ****'s me off, if they make an effort I'll work with them all year if necessary. I just want my car fixed and Mazda to stand behind their product.
What I do find completely unacceptable is when the service manger tells me every thing is fine just live with it. That is what really ****'s me off, if they make an effort I'll work with them all year if necessary. I just want my car fixed and Mazda to stand behind their product.
Originally Posted by 05whiterx8
lol, i'ld like to be doing some "research" right about now.
as far as the computer thing goes raptor, maybe dealers do rely on it to much. The only problem is it is nearly impossible for a technician to find a problem when the computer doesn't think there is one. Sure you could spend all day chasing something down only to find out there are no problems, might even get lucky and guess right about replacing a part, but the clear majority of the time your replacing perfectly good parts that don't fix any problems. Then the customer is even more pissed off because you've told him there is a problem by trying to fix it, but you didn't fix anything, so they have to keep coming back in while you guess some more. Its a catch 22 sometimes trying to help people out
on one hand you feel better because they are attempting to fix your problem and on the other you have to keep bringing it back, all the while loosing more confidence in the dealership than before.
So, my question to you is....would you rather a dealership guess and replace wrong parts...or wait until they actually have an idea about what's going on?
as far as the computer thing goes raptor, maybe dealers do rely on it to much. The only problem is it is nearly impossible for a technician to find a problem when the computer doesn't think there is one. Sure you could spend all day chasing something down only to find out there are no problems, might even get lucky and guess right about replacing a part, but the clear majority of the time your replacing perfectly good parts that don't fix any problems. Then the customer is even more pissed off because you've told him there is a problem by trying to fix it, but you didn't fix anything, so they have to keep coming back in while you guess some more. Its a catch 22 sometimes trying to help people out
on one hand you feel better because they are attempting to fix your problem and on the other you have to keep bringing it back, all the while loosing more confidence in the dealership than before.
So, my question to you is....would you rather a dealership guess and replace wrong parts...or wait until they actually have an idea about what's going on?
#80
and i understand where you are coming from too, i've been on that side myself before i was in the business.
what i would be interested to find out is if anyone in your area does the same kind of driving that you do. If they could get some one to run the same route, during the same hours and traffic conditions that you drive with another 8 to see if it comes out the same...same gas stations and all. That may be the only way to test and see if your 8 gas mileage is abnormal or not
what i would be interested to find out is if anyone in your area does the same kind of driving that you do. If they could get some one to run the same route, during the same hours and traffic conditions that you drive with another 8 to see if it comes out the same...same gas stations and all. That may be the only way to test and see if your 8 gas mileage is abnormal or not
#81
See if your dealer w/swap for one on the lot for a day or two. 24 hour test drives are more and more common, so why not? If the mpg is that much different, maybe they'll be more willing to investigate.
#83
This might be a good place to post my Letter to my Local Mazda Dealer.
I sent the following to my Local dealer - and to date have not recieved a reply. I finally sent to mazda, got a reply saying blah -blah-blah complaint noted or whatever.
I sent the following to my Local dealer - and to date have not recieved a reply. I finally sent to mazda, got a reply saying blah -blah-blah complaint noted or whatever.
5 December 2004 I purchased a 2004 Mazda RX8 from your dealership. I don’t recall the name of the salesman, as I’ve had no contact with him since. I do remember the people in your Service Department however, as I’ve had dealings with that part of your dealership on several occasions.
Bottom line up-front:
Your staff in the Service Department has been very cooperative, professional, and courteous when I’ve taken my car in for “little things” such as having rattles fixed, and oil changes. When “big things” happen, I’ve been on an emotional roller-coaster of “We won’t cover your car under warranty” then relenting after putting me through much angst; “Okay, we’ll do you a favor and honor the warranty”…which was included in the $28,500 you spent at Milam. This past week, your Service Department failed me in a most outrageous way.
Details, which will illustrate my frustration, follow. These are in chronological order, oldest to newest events:
It is a shame that I’d be forced to be dishonest, just to ensure fair treatment.
As of the writing of this letter, I have not received the promised phone call.
Monday of this week, I called a different Mazda dealer and explained the problems with my car, and my frustration – at this point I just want to know what’s wrong with my car. I was honest and upfront to the service representative on the phone, telling him of my Racing Beat products. He told me “We’ll take care of you – bring it in.”
No more than 3 hours later, I got a call from the actual technician who worked on my car. He told me he drove the car and suspected the catalytic converter was at fault. He removed the converter to find “…pieces of the catalyst broken and in chunks – falling out all over.” He told me he’d get a new converter as soon as possible.
I asked him if I’d be charged for the converter and if my use of other-than-Mazda parts may have lead to the failure. He wondered if the car had any history of hard-start issues – which, in his opinion, does lead to such a failure of the catalytic converter at times.
When I told the technician of Milam Auto’s refusal to fix the hard start problem my car had been experiencing, he told me he’d absolutely fix that too.
Denying warranty coverage without cause is a violation of Federal Law to the best of my understanding. Speculation is NOT enough. To invalidate a warranty, aftermarket parts must cause a failure of another part. And IF an aftermarket part is shown to cause a problem, only that area of the warranty is voided – e.g., new wheels causing the ball joints to go bad would not invalidate a warranty on the ignition system. At this point Milam Auto’s Service Department hasn’t actually invalidated my car’s warranty – but the threats of such action, coupled with the unwillingness to even just research the current problem borderline on unethical in my view.
At this point, I’ve been driven away from Milam Auto and found a new dealership. Milam Auto gave me a very fair deal when purchasing my car. Milam’s Service Department has left me jaded, and frustrated, however. If I had not found the other dealership I’d absolutely boycott Milam Auto and Mazda, and do what I could to ensure all those I’m in contact with would stay very very far away from your store. I would have also seriously considered legal action and letters to the FTC, BBB, and anyone else who would listen. I would LOVE to frequent Milam Auto for all of my car’s service and maintenance needs, as it’s less than ten miles from my home.
Milam’s sales staff treated me with respect and showed a real willingness to work with me. In fact, recently I went on a test drive with a salesman in a Mazdaspeed6. I enjoyed the experience to the point I’d discussed the possibility of trading my RX8 on the sedan. However, I would need a lot of convincing to buy a car at a place where I cannot trust their Service Department.
Thursday of this week, I picked up my car, running fantastic and repaired correctly under warranty from a Mazda dealer nearly forty miles away. I’m okay with having to put up with the distance for all my car’s future needs too; warranty-covered work or otherwise.
I can accept the problem may not be the sincerity of the personnel in your Service Department, and may be a systemic problem with how much they are allowed to actually do for a customer. I don’t doubt the integrity of the individuals, but have reservations about the policies under which they operate. Something as simple as a pipe and muffler section or a replacement black plastic box with a filter inside won’t cause engine failure. And if they did, I’d appreciate – I believe the average person would demand - data or evidence to support that conclusion, rather than “we don’t know, so that (insert aftermarket part) MUST have been the cause!”
As when shopping for a car, I don’t expect special treatment. I expect a Service Department to look at problems with a car objectively. I expect a Service Department to give me credit for having at least basic knowledge of how the systems in a car work together. I expect a Service Department to have at least the level of information I can find doing a 20-minute search of the internet. I am only after a fair deal. Thank you for your time, sir.
Bottom line up-front:
Your staff in the Service Department has been very cooperative, professional, and courteous when I’ve taken my car in for “little things” such as having rattles fixed, and oil changes. When “big things” happen, I’ve been on an emotional roller-coaster of “We won’t cover your car under warranty” then relenting after putting me through much angst; “Okay, we’ll do you a favor and honor the warranty”…which was included in the $28,500 you spent at Milam. This past week, your Service Department failed me in a most outrageous way.
Details, which will illustrate my frustration, follow. These are in chronological order, oldest to newest events:
- Returned Car for service work regarding: Dealer Repair Information #0003559 – Repaint rust on brake rotors. After a second treatment sometime later, a point was made to tell me the re-painting was done out of the goodness of their hearts, as “Mazda doesn’t reimburse them for the labor involved.” Milam Auto is Mazda to customers.
- HVAC/Radio display unreadable and garbled: Before any other diagnosis I was told “there was no way that will be covered under warranty” because I had installed some basic aftermarket audio components. Milam did NOT prove or illustrate how the aftermarket parts caused the display to go bad. After some frustrating hours, the part was covered under warranty because Milam/Mazda Tech line found ONE OTHER car, in California, with the same problem – which was a radio unit overly sensitive to heat. Had my car been the first case they could find, the display would NOT have been covered.
- Catastrophic failure of the Clutch Disc: After removal of the damaged parts, your Service Department called me, accusing me of abusing the clutch. I was told the clutch disc has been “abused and over-heated”, as the clutch disc had “turned blue, from overheating.” The clutch disc had EXPLODED – the metal rivets holding the clutch disc together simply failed. I suggested employees of your Service Department open a brand-new Mazda RX8 clutch disc if they had one in stock. ALL have a blue hue to the metal pieces. Begrudgingly, the clutch was replaced under warranty with the caveat no future replacements would be done as the clutch is a “part” and “parts” only carry a 12,000 mile warranty. I was told “(Milam is) doing you a favor in honoring the warranty” as my car had just over 13,000 miles when this happened. Your Service Department worked well with me in holding off a few days on the repair, as I had ordered a Mazdaspeed (MS) Flywheel for installation. Had your parts department not told me “No.” when I asked if Milam can order MS parts, the install would have been completed a few days quicker.
- Hard Starting Issue: per Mazda TSB 01-019/05. This problem was not fixed; I was denied warranty coverage. I had cut a VERY small notch in the side my battery cover to allow the pass-through of a ½” diameter power wire for an audio amplifier. I was told by a Service Rep “That small hole is causing the battery to overheat. Therefore the hard starting won’t be covered as your modification lead to the problem.” I was not offered data to support the claim. The “diagnosis” was made only by calling the Mazda Tech phone line and concluding the tiny notch in the cover “must” be the cause of the hard-starting. I also asked your Service Department to look into re-fixing a driver’s airbag rattle which was fixed at one point, but has since returned with a vengeance, per Mazda TSB 08-004/04. I have to keep a wadded-up piece of paper in the gap between the airbag cover and the steering wheel to maintain sanity during driving. The car is now “past the warranty period for rattles.”
- Gradual, severe power loss: Last week, your Service Department gave me untold amounts of ulcer-inducing stress and grief. My car could barely accelerate. The car bucked and shuddered – the only way I could drive the car is by keeping minimal pressure on the throttle to gradually build up speed. When I dropped the car with your Service Department I said that I’d been researching the symptoms online, and thought the power loss was likely the result of ignition coil failure or a clogged catalytic converter. The reaction I got from your Service Department was disbelief; “if the cat-converter is bad, [my car] would have a Check Engine Light [illuminated].” The next day was told by a service representative that Milam would not diagnose the problem with my car. I was told “…we called Mazda Tech line – they told us we are to not touch the car because of a performance intake and exhaust system which may have caused the power loss.” I was effectively denied warranty coverage based on speculation without any determination of the cause of the problem. I had purchased and installed Racing Beat brand intake and exhaust system last year. Racing Beat has a well-documented, established history with Mazda. Your service representative told me he’d never heard of Racing Beat. When I brought up the quality of the parts I’d chosen I was questioned on the brand of air filter. I was told “the air filter might have caused the car’s Mass Airflow Sensor (MAF) to malfunction.” After two days, I was asked to return to Milam and pick up my car. I was to expect a call within a few days to see if they could convince Mazda to cover the car under warranty. When I expressed my frustration, and asked if he thought Milam was in violation of the Magnusen-Moss Warranty Act, I was patronized with the comment “If it’s not a MAZDA brand part, it will void your warranty!” Also, suggestion was made that if I’d have brought in my car with the Original Equipment re-installed, I would have had no trouble getting diagnosis and repair for the car.
It is a shame that I’d be forced to be dishonest, just to ensure fair treatment.
As of the writing of this letter, I have not received the promised phone call.
Monday of this week, I called a different Mazda dealer and explained the problems with my car, and my frustration – at this point I just want to know what’s wrong with my car. I was honest and upfront to the service representative on the phone, telling him of my Racing Beat products. He told me “We’ll take care of you – bring it in.”
No more than 3 hours later, I got a call from the actual technician who worked on my car. He told me he drove the car and suspected the catalytic converter was at fault. He removed the converter to find “…pieces of the catalyst broken and in chunks – falling out all over.” He told me he’d get a new converter as soon as possible.
I asked him if I’d be charged for the converter and if my use of other-than-Mazda parts may have lead to the failure. He wondered if the car had any history of hard-start issues – which, in his opinion, does lead to such a failure of the catalytic converter at times.
When I told the technician of Milam Auto’s refusal to fix the hard start problem my car had been experiencing, he told me he’d absolutely fix that too.
Denying warranty coverage without cause is a violation of Federal Law to the best of my understanding. Speculation is NOT enough. To invalidate a warranty, aftermarket parts must cause a failure of another part. And IF an aftermarket part is shown to cause a problem, only that area of the warranty is voided – e.g., new wheels causing the ball joints to go bad would not invalidate a warranty on the ignition system. At this point Milam Auto’s Service Department hasn’t actually invalidated my car’s warranty – but the threats of such action, coupled with the unwillingness to even just research the current problem borderline on unethical in my view.
At this point, I’ve been driven away from Milam Auto and found a new dealership. Milam Auto gave me a very fair deal when purchasing my car. Milam’s Service Department has left me jaded, and frustrated, however. If I had not found the other dealership I’d absolutely boycott Milam Auto and Mazda, and do what I could to ensure all those I’m in contact with would stay very very far away from your store. I would have also seriously considered legal action and letters to the FTC, BBB, and anyone else who would listen. I would LOVE to frequent Milam Auto for all of my car’s service and maintenance needs, as it’s less than ten miles from my home.
Milam’s sales staff treated me with respect and showed a real willingness to work with me. In fact, recently I went on a test drive with a salesman in a Mazdaspeed6. I enjoyed the experience to the point I’d discussed the possibility of trading my RX8 on the sedan. However, I would need a lot of convincing to buy a car at a place where I cannot trust their Service Department.
Thursday of this week, I picked up my car, running fantastic and repaired correctly under warranty from a Mazda dealer nearly forty miles away. I’m okay with having to put up with the distance for all my car’s future needs too; warranty-covered work or otherwise.
I can accept the problem may not be the sincerity of the personnel in your Service Department, and may be a systemic problem with how much they are allowed to actually do for a customer. I don’t doubt the integrity of the individuals, but have reservations about the policies under which they operate. Something as simple as a pipe and muffler section or a replacement black plastic box with a filter inside won’t cause engine failure. And if they did, I’d appreciate – I believe the average person would demand - data or evidence to support that conclusion, rather than “we don’t know, so that (insert aftermarket part) MUST have been the cause!”
As when shopping for a car, I don’t expect special treatment. I expect a Service Department to look at problems with a car objectively. I expect a Service Department to give me credit for having at least basic knowledge of how the systems in a car work together. I expect a Service Department to have at least the level of information I can find doing a 20-minute search of the internet. I am only after a fair deal. Thank you for your time, sir.
#84
Banned
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 734
Likes: 0
From: In the hills between San Miguel and Parkfield - "up in the boonie lands", Central Coast of California, Wine Country
What kind of oil were you using just before your cat went out - there has been an on going discussion and it would be worth knowing.....
#87
that was a very well written letter, sorry to hear about your problems at the dealership close to your home...good to see someone else took care of you though
i have the revi/ram air pipe and hymee ss exhaust on mine...so do half of my rx-8 customers.....haven't seen any problems yet..except maybe one with a mass air flow sensor
i have the revi/ram air pipe and hymee ss exhaust on mine...so do half of my rx-8 customers.....haven't seen any problems yet..except maybe one with a mass air flow sensor
#88
Originally Posted by Raptor75
What I do find completely unacceptable is when the service manger tells me every thing is fine just live with it. That is what really ****'s me off, ...
#89
Ok, I don't want to be an ***, but why in the world would you consider buying a car from a dealership where the service department is crap?
Go to the dealership 40 miles away, buy the car from them, then drive to Milan Mazda and ask to talk to the sales manager. Walk them out to your car, explain they lost an easy sale to another Mazda dealership because of their service department and leave it at that.
Buying more cars from dealerships that are low cost up front, and screw you down the line will just perpetuate the problem.
Go to the dealership 40 miles away, buy the car from them, then drive to Milan Mazda and ask to talk to the sales manager. Walk them out to your car, explain they lost an easy sale to another Mazda dealership because of their service department and leave it at that.
Buying more cars from dealerships that are low cost up front, and screw you down the line will just perpetuate the problem.
#90
^ I agree. But I think his point was that he wouldn't buy the ms6 from them b/c of the service dept. Bought mine from a dealer 35 miles away, rather than the one 5mins away b/c the closer one was Tasca; with a giant showroom, giant ego, and giant run-around. 40 miles to the service dept. is just a good excuse to cross the Newport Bridge (doing the posted limit, of course). Too bad I don't trust any of them.
#91
Well thanks to all who suggested various solutions to my immediate problem, I see I still have many miles to go before I put this to bed. I also hope Mazda North America reads this thread and takes it to heart. They are doing a lot of harm with there approach to customers and it will cost them in the future. Their poor service has already lost them a sale to me. I was really starting to like that new C7 but after the lack of support I had with the 8 I'm staying with Subaru for my wife’s next car. It is a shame because they make nice cars and there are some good dealers but over all their product support sucks.
#93
Originally Posted by Olorin2
I hate to go off on this tangent, but I wanted to comment on this.
Yes, unions were useful when companies abused their workers in that way. However, it's a completely different world now. My mom manages an office for a major telecommunications company, that's unionized. Here's a common scenario from day-to-day: An employee frequently comes back late from lunches and breaks. My mom will have a talk with them as verbal warning. The next time she has to address the issue, she will write them up. This employee will then proceed to call his Union Rep in for a meeting to argue that the employee is being treated unfairly. And of course, it turns racial because the employee thinks he or she is being discriminated against. This is the kind of crap that most unions are dealing with now. We no longer have companies prohibiting employees from going home after injuries and such. They're protecting lazy employees who think they have the right to do anything they want and still get paid for it.
Yes, unions were useful when companies abused their workers in that way. However, it's a completely different world now. My mom manages an office for a major telecommunications company, that's unionized. Here's a common scenario from day-to-day: An employee frequently comes back late from lunches and breaks. My mom will have a talk with them as verbal warning. The next time she has to address the issue, she will write them up. This employee will then proceed to call his Union Rep in for a meeting to argue that the employee is being treated unfairly. And of course, it turns racial because the employee thinks he or she is being discriminated against. This is the kind of crap that most unions are dealing with now. We no longer have companies prohibiting employees from going home after injuries and such. They're protecting lazy employees who think they have the right to do anything they want and still get paid for it.
Can I throw an off tangent AMEN to go along with this statement! But also include most of society looking for a way to get a quick buck and not have to work for it. Entitlement programs from the 1940's really started the hole that has led to the cess pool of slacker mentality we are in now.
Tim
#94
Originally Posted by Tim Benton
Can I throw an off tangent AMEN to go along with this statement! But also include most of society looking for a way to get a quick buck and not have to work for it. Entitlement programs from the 1940's really started the hole that has led to the cess pool of slacker mentality we are in now.
Tim
Tim
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
czr
RX-8 Parts For Sale/Wanted
4
09-13-2015 12:37 PM
AMOC
SE RX-8 Forum
1
09-09-2015 06:14 AM