I am new to a manual transmission, so bear with me. I have done plenty of reading on it, books, this forum, howstuffworks.com, etc. I have a pretty straightforward question. I have had problems downshifting before going in to turns, and am trying to practice my heel-toeing, however, in the mean time, since I dont want to drive anyone off the road, I have been downshifting and letting the clutch out slowly (also for engine breaking). Is this ruining my clutch plate?

 

You're allowed to use the brake while you shift. If you are letting your engine do all the work, then you are probably going to screw something up eventually.

 

Also your clutch will wear down faster

 

It's ok to use the engine and brakes together to slow down the car as long as you match rmp. Otherwise you will wear out your clutch.

But brakes were made for braking so you might as well use them.

I'd rather replace brakes than risk burning up a clutch or my engine.

 

Considering the RPMs will go up when you downshift, if you are too leisurely in letting off the clutch I can't see it as being good. What I mean is that if you hold the clutch pedal in too long the engine RPMs drop and as you let out the clutch the engine is forced to catch up with the speed of the moving transmission and then some because a lower gear will be running at a higher RPM if you are going the same speed. Pretty much any time you don't have the clutch completely engaged or completely disengaged you are wearing the clutch out.

If you are going to downshift, it's better to give the engine a little gas to match the RPMs of the engine with the speed of the transmission in the gear that you are aiming for. This way the transition is smoother and you aren't relying on your clutch to match up the two. You can do this by either double-clutching or just revving the engine with your foot on the clutch and then letting out the clutch. The only difference between the two is that in the latter method you are forcing your synchros to work harder on getting your layshaft up to the proper speed once you engage your gear. Some people say this is the purpose of synchros and don't double-clutch, others are of the mentality to prevent unnecessary wear on their synchros and double-clutch to minimize synchro-wear.

 

Okay. Thanks. It sounds like I'll stop engine breaking until I can get my heel-toe on.

 

Since you are new to an MT I would like to recommend the following:

1) Practice rev matching without worrying about breaking i.e. blip and downshift when coming on a red light or when passing, or even for fun on the freeway just to get used to it.

2) Break well before the corner and then downshift before cornering or break go through the corner then downshift

3) Once you are comfortable (consistent) in downshifting, then try the heel-toe

I know it is painful to not have good exit speeds because of being out of the powerband but taking slow will make you a better driver in the long run. It will also save some wear on your car. The better fundamentals you have the better driver you will be.

 

I've had some experience with AAMCO transmissions over all the years of my cars, and they told me some good advice for clutch wear.

Anytime you let the clutch out, try your HARDEST to rev match and let the clutch otu quickly. As long as you are in the vacinity, it'll work out fine. The QUICKEST wear to a clutch is feathering (lightly letting out slowly. That allows for the 2 plates (clutch and pressure plate) to rub LONGER, creating more friction over a longer period of time. While this does yield a smoother gear change, it eats your clutch faster then anything.

Anytime your in gear, your in gear. Don't dilly-dally around with slowly letting out and all. Get to where you're goin on the tach, and let it out. The faster it enages, the less it's wearing and doing it's job...which is holding the 2 plates together. Not rubbing them together.

Naturally, the point of a clutch is to do just that...allow for 2 rotating surfaces to finally reach an even speed. While you can definetely feather more often and make INTIALLY for smoother shifts, you'll find that clutches won't last you near as long as someone who matches and gets in and our of gear right away. It may take a little time to find that median of perfect shifting...but once you get it down, it's just like clockwork.

And no, you're not an idiot. It's a good question...hence why i asked the AAMCO guys the correct way to last the longest.

 

If you are new to a manual transmission, I recommend forgetting about heel-toe and concentrate on just shifting properly, rev matching and being able to downshift smoothly.

I dare say that heel-toe is not a required skill to drive your RX-8 on the streets.

 

If you are new to manual transmission, you should leave the heel and toe stuff for later after you get used to driving a manual.

 

im with everyone. learn the basics first.

 

Brakes are cheaper

 

^ & ^ & ^ &^ & ^ Basics first.
But Rx-A-ho (as in Wrecks-a-Ho? lol) has a good point about learning the rev match 1st. Practicing "without worrying about breaking i.e. blip and downshift when coming on a red light or when passing, or even for fun on the freeway just to get used to it." will give you (duh) more practice on the MT in general, but also make you more aware of the rev points you should be aiming for when learning more 'advanced' skills.

 

I have been driving MT's for 15 years and just learned to heel-toe last year when I started doing track events. It is NOT easy to do smoothly on the street since speeds are lower and you are not usually braking as hard. On the track, it is amazingly easy to do.

 

One question at a time:

1) Are you an idiot? Well, that depends on a lot of things, but a good question asked tends to indicate you are not an idiot, although your username tends to track in the idiot direction.

2) Are you ruining your clutch plate: All depends on the amount of rev-to-driveline speed differential there is - if you're putting the clutch in, stepping off the gas, letting the revs die to idle, downshifting and easing out the clutch and letting the driveline ****** the engine up to the right speed, let's just say you're certainly not operating in a low-wear/low stress situation.

You don't necessarily have to heel and toe - just keep the clutch in as you do your corner turn in, then once you're off the brakes,, give the throttle a blip to bring the revs up and let out the clutch - it will take a few jerky corners before you perfect that, but that's the easiest way. Heel and toeing, while cool, is really only necessary on the track or on a high-performance drive, where you want to get all of your shifting and braking done just before you make your corner turn in, you want to be in the right gear for the corner exit as you ENTER the turn, that way you can just ride the throttle steadily through the corner and can it exiting the corner, rocketing you out of the corner with best speed.

For turning residential or urban street corners, the method I described above is perfectly adequate and will result in the least wear.

Enjoy the car. By the fact you bought a manual and you're concerned about the proper way to operate it enough to ask us, proves you're not an idiot.

 

You just need to be going slower before you down shift.