Truss

Autoweek reports that some manufacturers are completely voiding customer warranties if the car was taken to an autocross event. Mitsubishi appears to be going so far as to scour the web for evidence of who is racing Evos and then sending the owners "your warranty is void" notices. (Smart move since Mitsubishi is just rolling in the dough these days...)

A few thoughts on this:

1. If a car is absued, I have no problems with a manufacturer refusing to cover damage cause by out-and-out abuse of the car.

2. Completely voiding a warranty is way too extreme. Talk about a bad way to engender good will!

3. The manufacturer should have to prove not only that the car was raced, but that it was abused during the competition. High performance cars should be engineered to withstand the occasional autox without blowing up.

4. These kinds of actions will discourage people from learning how to control their cars under safe circumstances. Autox is one of the best ways to learn how to be a better driver, but the risk of voiding your warranty will cause many drivers to hold off. This means that (a) many drivers will not learn proper vehicle control (not a big deal since Evos are eeeasy to keep out of the bushes), and (b) people will get involved in "unsupervised" competitions like street racing that endanger not only warranties, but lives and property, as well.

Manufacturers should rethink the policy of voiding warranties when they learn a car has been entered in an SCCA sanctioned autox.

T.

PA BATMOBILE

I agree, it's a shame to see automakers such as Mitsubishi who makes a world renowned rally car and tell people they can learn to drive it the way it was meant to be driven.

Gord96BRG

"But the EVO is so much better than any other car for the price!"

:p Yeah, as long as you never get caught driving harder than your granny would drive it.

FWIW, I've never heard of Mazda causing warranty problems for autocrossers - and I've been involved with the Miata world for over 8 years. Drag racing might be another issue, especially if you're repeatedly blowing up your transmission or differential. Read the warranty fine print, it's pretty clear that motorsports competition use will invalidate your warranty. Still, Mazda certainly isn't going out of their way to deny coverage before you ever have a claim, as Mitsubishi is. If Mazda were to deny a second blown transmission claim, I wouldn't see a problem with that decision.

Regards,
Gordon

Feras

iTrader: (1)

i remember the first year honda was selling the s2000 it came with a membership to the SCCA. It seems any car maker that truly thinks that their product is superior performance wise would try to promote performance driving and not shun people from participating. I think mazda has always understood this and let us race under warranty

8pex

Just got the new Autoweek today and was reading this article.

Kid_Icarus

That seems a little extreme. If you auto x a couple of times a year it really shouldn't do that much damage to severe. I can see a reason for voiding it if you autox'd every weekend. When I got my interga a couple of years ago the salesman gave me some places where they had competitions and where I could buy parts and every time I came in for maintence we'd compare what we did since the last time. Some cars should be expected to be at lest taken to the track a couple of times. I know when I get back I'm going to see if I can take my car to see how much I've lost since I sent over seas. My prediction *2 cones left standing* :p well maybe not that bad it's only been 8 monthes.

Seenitall

New BMWs have been sold with a Driving school inculded i.e. lapping on a raetrack. In addition, they regularely sponsor Driver training schools at tracks. So they aren't going to void your warranty unless they are sure you abused the car.

rotarygod

The only thing I have ever hurt on my car in an autocross is the tires.

The simple solution is to not let dealers/manufacturers find out you are autocrossing them. This is easy. Just because it says I am in an autocross and driving a certain type of car doesn't necessarily mean I am in MY car. I've driven my friends car in an autocross before. He has the same style RX-7 that I do. Manufacturers couldn't prove it if you knew what to argue about such as my above scenario. The only true way they can be sure is to actually be there and take pictures. Just take your plates off when you get to the track. Then they couldn't even prove it with pictures. Nothing illegal or against the rules about that. After all, race cars don't have plates.

Mitsubishi is the only Japanese car company who isn't making a profit. They require outside help to keep them running. Now that their help has been cut off, they can't make decisions for themselves. Do you really think they are smart enough to figure out how to bust someone for racing their cars? I just told you how to get around it. Any intelligent company would already know this and not waste any more money on the effort. See how they spend their money? Make people hate you so that you sell less cars. Brilliant strategy Mitsu!!!

VikingDJ

My uncle is a service manager for mitsubishi, and we were talking about this. He said mainly people are coming in with fried clutches after only like 5-10k miles or less, and they will not cover it. He told me when the Evo came out, people abused their cars at track, figuring the warranty would cover it. I think the problem is most people who buy an evo, buy it for one purpose. PERFORMANCE. A greater percentage of evo owners drive their cars very hard/ and or race them, whereas the rx8 owner is generally just a daily driver who doesn't abuse their car. If we all started autocrossing, and taking out rx8s in for service after racing at track for wear caused by hard driving, I wouldn't be surprised it mazda did same thing. It's not hard for a service center to know what's defective, and what's wear and tear from racing or hard driving. If you wear something out prematurely from racing, I don't think it should be covered under warranty, and mitsubishi has every right to turn you down.

rotarygod

Maybe they should have the right to turn you down but if your clutch goes out during warranty and they can't directly prove it was caused by racing, they can't call you a liar if you claim no knowledge of how it happened. It may be obvious to a mechanic, but without actually seeing you racing or having you admit it was from racing, they can't deny you service. They could get in legal trouble that way and in a court of law, the customer would win. I understand Mitsu's logic for doing it and they may morally be correct but they can't legally get away with it.

Truss

I think we all agree that if the damage is directly caused by abusing the car the manufacturer has a right not to honor that specific warranty repair. But simply voiding the entire warranty, as Mitsubishi seems to be doing from the Autoweek article, is ridiculous.

The typical autox doesn't involve many laps per car, and usually doesn't reach very high speeds. I fail to see why 5-10 minutes of hard driving should void your entire warranty.

This is a quick way for Mitsu to kill enthusiasm for their car.

T.

SA22C

Gord's got it right on, Mazda has always been supportive of the racing scene, especially autoX and Solo events. I wouldn't worry about playing boy racer during the summer voiding your warranty, nor would I really worry about breaking anything during a Solo II event. Even my old RX-7 has yet to suffer any damage from a Solo event, save the accellerated deterioration of a rear axle bearing that was already on its way out.

Get out there and have fun with those 8's, that's what they were built for!

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

i just finished reading the article in Autoweek.

the cases the manufacturers made make sense. no car maker wants to be someone's sponsor/repair shop for their weekend battle damages.

btw, they don't void the WHOLE warranty, they just won't cover the PARTICULAR damage that happened while you were racing...

RobDickinson

And again I mention the FREE track day Mazda UK supply to all RX8 buyers.

Can hardly void your warrenty for something they positivy encourage.

They WILL refuse warrenty work if the car has been abused way beyond normal I bet tho.

Truss

Not true. The article clearly states that Miller's warranty was voided for the entire "engine, clutch, and transmission." I could see voiding the warranty on the clutch, but the entire transmission? The entire engine?!

The dealer should have to prove that racing caused the damage, not simply be allowed to void the entire engine warranty. It's ridiculous that these cars' warranties don't cover brief spurts of hard driving in a parking lot around some orange cones. How fragile are these vehicles??

This practice would prevent me from buying and Evo. Period. And if Mazda does it with RX-8s, it'll stop me from buying an 8. I can buy some very nice used cars for $28,000.

T.

TreknMazda

Is it autocrossing, a cheap clutch to begin with, or people who don't know how to use a clutch? I would think autocrossing is the least likely to cause clutch failure in less than 10K. And besides, most Autocross courses are like 1/2 mile or less; you typically get three runs so that's only 1 and 1/2 miles in a day. Autocrossing is not the problem here...

rotarygod

Every time I have ever autocrossed (except for in the beginning when I didn't know how to drive), once I have shifted into 2nd gear, I have never had to change again. Most tracks are way too tight to ever need to shift into 3rd gear long enough for it to help you and 1st gear is just too low for even the slowest of corners. The clutch doesn't get abused when I autocross since it really isn't being used. The suspension gets a harder workout just driving everyday on the street and the brakes are only being used hard a couple of times from relatively low speeds. Consider that you usually only have a total daily autocross track time of a few minutes and that the speeds rarely get over 45 mph or so. When they do it is only for a brief moment. Only the tires see any hard use and you can hear them.

Drag racing is where I have destroyed clutches. I've killed a new clutch in less than a thousand miles this way. It wasn't from going to he track either. It was back when I was stupid and would street race. This is much harder on the car than an autocross.

Even the driving school events I go to at Texas World Speedway aren't as tough on the clutch as drag racing. On this track the thing that takes the most abuse are the brakes. You easily work your way up to speed and then generally stay in 3rd and 4th gear the entire time with an occasional 2nd gear hit. You get on the brakes from much higher speeds and fade becomes obvious quickly if your car isn't up to par. The engine is getting a good workout by going up and down through the rpm range but it doesn't necessarily imply abuse. I've never hurt a clutch or an engine this way. The people that have engine issues are the ones with inadequate cooling systems who still drive the car hard. There are people that occasionally have engine issues though and every once in a while you'll see someone wreck their cars here. There is more potential for disaster here but it isn't on the clutch. However, Mercedes and BMW have both sponsored these events where they have brought out several of their new cars and allowed people to take them around the track. BMW brought out the M3 and M5 as well as general other cars and Mercedes actually brought out some AMG models! They wanted to show off their vehicles and what they could do. I've never seen Mitsubishi here! Porsche is also an active sponsor.

As a summary, autocross is only hard on the tires. Bad excuse to deny drivetrain warranty. Drag/street racing is very hard on the clutch and drivetrain. The bells are going off in my head. Too bad you can't prove anyone has street raced unless they admit it or you have seen them do it. This is probably why Mitsu has stooped to attack the innocent autocross crowd. Road courses have a high potential of personal risk due to the speeds (and nice concrete walls near the corners!). It is hardest on the cooling system and the brakes by far but is relatively easy on the clutch. You don't have to drive as hard as you can. Stay within your and the cars abilities. Why isn't Mitsu attacking these guys? Mercedes (who is no longer funding Mitsu!) and BMW will put their most expensive cars in this risky arena to let total strangers drive them hard! I still think Mitsu is full of crap. They have no grounds to do what they are doing. It doesn't matter if I believe people who abuse their cars should have their warranties voided or not. That's illegal from the standpoint of lack of proof (a dead clutch isn't proof. Let my girlfriend drive a standard for a day and see what happens!). The crowd they are denying warranty service to isn't even the correct group. Autocrossers have turned into scapegoats for those who are really at fault, the street racers.

The real issue is that Mitsu is so far in debt and so desperate to cut costs in any way that they can, that they need to stop replacing things for free (and therefore not pay mechanics to fix problems) just to help save money. Unfortunately that doesn't help future business at all. Mitsu is a company who's days are numbered in the car market. They'll have to stick to electronics.

Section 8

Kinda makes me glad I don't have a warranty to void.

Truss

VERY well put, RG. EVOs seem to have a real appetite for clutches, which is one thing, but these kinds of engine failures from autocrossing are absurd.

If these cars aren't designed to go fast on a tight course, what exactly are they designed to do?

This trend is typical of car manufacturers talking out of both sides of their mouths. On the one hand, they love the high profit margins that high performance cars and aftermarket parts bring. On the other hand, they hate having to engineer vehicles that can truly withstand high performance driving. Dodge's turbo upgrades for the SRT-4 probably (depends on who you ask) void the engine warranty for the car. Brilliant! Let's offer people parts that will produce 355hp in a GD NEON and then call them suckers when their engines blow up.

T.

StewC625

Whoever in the thread that said "Mitsubishi is losing money" had it right ... what's the issue here and what was put in the Autoweek article is that Mitsubishi is actively seeking out EVO drivers who's cars appear in the online "results" pages of various SCCA and other car clubs, and then tagging their warranty file. Therefore, when a guy comes in for ANYTHING wrong with his car, it's like he's on double-secret probation - his claim receives far more scrutiny than the average Joe.

I can attest to Mazda's support of cars used in occasional autocrossing. I had an '85 RX-7 that I bought new and drove for about 3 years, autocrossing it 2 or 3 times a summer. Once a summer the seal in the rear end where the driveshaft yoke comes out of it (whatever that's called) would fail - the techs said it was from driveline shock that comes with hard shifting. The axles in those cars would "wind up" pretty badly and then jolt under hard shifts. In those days (12 month/12,000 mile warranty) they replaced two during my first year of ownership, both under warranty and both times when the tech and service writer straight out asked me how I was doing with the autocrossing ...

After having the car 18 months, I lowered the suspension, added a stabilzation link to the rear axle (that helped fight the wind-up effect), and put in a Turbo kit. Despite the added power, and thereby added stress, the stabilization link solved the rear end problem.

Today's RX-8's have a very stout driveline - with the powertrain frame that ties the rear end, transmission and engine into a single unit and eliminates driveline windup and flex. Unless you're doing extended track days with your car, a day or two of autocrossing it now and again shouldnt' do anything but use up your tires and brakes.

I think it's also a matter of your dealership going to bat for you.

Stew

khoney

If the manufacturer of automobile 'X' tries to deny warranty coverage due to autocrossing, I would reply "I'm not driving it any differently than you show in all your commercials!"

rotarygod

If manufacturers don't want their cars driven hard, they shouldn't design them to perform better. I've never seen Buick design a track car. I've also never seen my grandma drive it hard. Correlation? I think so.

clyde

Dark8

My MazdaSpeed dealership pointed me to mazdaspeedmotorsports.com and told me to register as a race team to get the discount on Mazda Speed parts. Now the only way that will work is if you send them the results for two competition events. When I asked if auto-x would void my warrenty, the service manager said that Mazda does not consider auto-x a true racing event and it would not void any part of my warrenty. Of course he did not supply me with anything in writing. But I think it depends a lot on the dealership.

Clyde: Is that a Grand National?

rotarygod

Drag cars aren't track cars. Real race cars turn corners. Both left and right. The Grand National is a good example in support of what I'm saying though in the fact that everyone makes them faster and Buick doesn't complain. Mitsu just sucks and they know it.