8ight

This is what pisses me off about some of these forums - dumbass, ignorant people who can't be honest even with themselves.

I love my RX8 - 04 Red/Black/6-spd/GT/App/Roty - it's a great car. The shifter-clutch feel is probably the best I have ever driven. I love the way it looks from the front, the flares are awesome. Handles great. Interiors cool. Makes me smile. However, steering and road feel are sadly lacking.

I also have a 2003 M3 6-spd. Anyone who claims that a RX8 will OVERALL out perform an M3 is either an idiot or delusional. They probably have never driven both vehicles. To be fair to the RX8, it should be flattered to be mentioned in the same breath as an M3, and people should take this as a big compliment.

People shouldn't/don't buy BMWs because they are the greatest handling cars/fastest cars/most luxurious cars etc....but they do buy them because they are 'true driving' cars that an enthusiast can appreciate. They offer the best overall driving experience - and they offer something that no other car manufacturer on the planet can quite duplicate. That is FEEL. The combination of balance, handling, steering, control and road-feedback that combine to make what a BMW is all about. I don't have much experience with the 5/7/X5 but all BMWs have that special something, especially the 3.

There is a well known saying within the automative industry that states "There is only one truism in this business. Those who question the ability of the BMW 3 series are either idiots or infidels." Just a thought.

Still love my 8 though.

RussellP

3 series is definitely overrated and overpriced. Id rather have an A4!

maybRx8

That is not an intelligent comment russel. My brother owns a 330ci 5 speed. This is by far one of the most under rated cars of all time. Handling is top notch, same level as the rx8. Believe it or not, it is also as fast as the rx8. Now, as far as M3's go, I belive with 8ight. My dad owns an 03, 6 speed right now and no car i have ever driven even comes close. He used to have an 02' m3 w/ SMG, but traded it back for his current car. The STick is just more fun to drive than the SMG. All of that aside, I still feel the RX-8 is a great car and am strongly considering getting one of these in May/June, depending on how well I do in school. Pleaes, if any of you have negative comments on the RX-8 that might lead me away from it, please let me know. I dont want to spend thirty grand on something I wont like. Thanks!

maybRx8

sorry, dont know what I was thinking. Replace the word belive with agree. whoops.

meeh

I dont' think its fair to compare an rx8 to bmw. I enjoy my rx8 but its doesn't come close to a bmw. You do pay more for a bmw, but you get what you pay for. I would have gotten an m3 over an rx8 but I couldn't afford an m3. Maybe when I'm more financialy secured I can revisit the m3 as an option.

I got an rx8 and i'm having fun with it. Its enjoyable to drive.

julian

My opinion also. It's unfortunate that the EPAS trades-off some feedback.

BMW's steering feel is the best in the business. But I haven't drive any new porsche's lately.

Pappy

I traded my BMW 328is Coupe (Nikasil affected) for an RX8 - the BMW was a great car to drive but the RX8 is even better. The RX8's performance, handling, and steering is superb and that awesome redline is something else.

Anyway, I won't be heading back to BMW as they screwed me big time with their Nikasil problem. If you're ever contemplating buying a used BMW - don't! See this link for more info..
Nikasil

Pete

i owned a bmw in the past....

The BMW has a heavier feel on the turns. It also seems that you can't cut a corner like in the 8. I honestly loved the BMW..... but the Rx8 out handles the BMW ....... hands down!

Literatii

Thought about a BMW. Based on where I live, I was told by a friend I'd be crazy to buy one:

http://www.geocities.com/anticalgarybmw/MSIE/

Got the 8.

jtimbck2

I'm chiming in a little late, but here's my opinion.

I owned a 2000 328i with the Sport package (sportier suspension and 17" wheels). It was a 5-spd manual. That car was fantastic, I can't praise enough BMW's silky smooth inline 6 engine, the whole package made for a VERY sporty 4-door sedan. But that's just it, it was still a sedan and it handled like one.

The RX-8 is overall the best car I've ever owned OR driven! The handling is superb, braking is stellar, the rotary (though it doesn't have the raw torque of the BMW inline 6) is smooth and powerful, and the looks make heads turn!

For comparison, here are some of the other cars I've owned and driven (not the full list):

Owned:
two Saturns
1998.5 Audi A4 1.8T (chipped up to 180hp)

Driven:
1998 Mercedes SLK 230 (185hp supercharged 4-cyl)
2002 Mercedes SLK 32 AMG (349hp supercharged V6)
2003 Infiniti G35 Coupe
2003 Infiniti FX35

RodsterinFL

I bought a '96 328is new, paid $36K and drove it 5 years. The car was solid and fairly quiet MPG was city 20-22 and hwy 27-31 depending on A/C use etc.

The E36 I believe is more of a benchmark suspension. I remember when the E46 came out and 3 major reviews on the car said suspension was too soft - gone the way of the masses, etc. Anyway, my mindset was that BMW was my brand for life.

When I started shopping for a car in 2001 and then latter this summer I drove a 323 w/standard suspension, 323 w/sport pkg, 328is and a 330i sedan, 528 (used) and 525 (new) - all standard shift and with both suspensions (except for the 328is and used 528)

(I'm older than 25 so they let me drive em!)

anyway,

The BMW's in their base suspension lean quite a bit (I think it is called yaw) and the suspension is truly soft. CONTROLLED but soft. The newer E46 suspension is much softer in its standard form than the standard form E36 - this also confirmed in the pro reviews. The sport suspensions make the cars perform like they should anyway. As far as drive handling is concerned I would have to agree that the RX8 is a better driver. When you start changing lanes, making the curves, and even goind down the highway in a crosswind the RX8 handles beautifully. My 328is was the first car I owned that was truly a challenge to drive in an interstate Hwy crosswind - it really wandered. I loved that car though to drive as I do the 8 but the 8 has way more power and it handles better for sure. It also does not seem as heavy at the wheel as the BMW's. That's about all I can express.

Alvidrez

I have owned a 1992 325, a 1992 318c, a 1997 328c a 1997 Z3, and a 1999 328. All were good handling cars for their class. However, in my opinion, they did not handle as well a my (now former) RX8.

julian

i believe yaw refers to rotation about the z/vertical axis. body roll is just body roll. i don't really know how to feel/judge yaw in the car, only heard the magazines mention it here and there. the whole smaller polar moment of inertia PR effects yaw since less inertia means the vehicle turn in/yaws faster and easier. like a miata turns in immediately (a la go-cart) while a heavier vehicle will have lower turn-in response.

i was lucky enough to drive an e46 m3, a 530, and and x5 through work and they all have great steering precision and engines. since we're talking about cars i'll get on the soap box for a while. steering precision/feel and handling are different metrics in my opinion. steering is a result of the rack and pinion design, steering linkage geometry, the hydraulic valve design, etc. questions i ask myself when evaluating cars: is there linear torque build up when steering wheel angle or lateral g' increase, is there a dead spot on-center, any "free play" when steering, how easy is it to make subtle corrections at highway speeds, how much feedback do you get through the wheel.

handling is the result of suspension geometry, CG's, spring and shock tuning, type of tires. etc.

bmw's and miata's have great steering. i was disappointed with the rx8 i test drove because of the on-center dead spot. i was expecting a lot more from the people that designed the miata's steering.

the rx8 definitely feels composed and has agile handling. a very well-rounded car. it feels like a larger miata. steering and engine torque were the shortcomings.

RodsterinFL

Julian, you seem to be a calculating and analytical person. Here is some information.

The RX 8 and the rotary for that matter, provide a different driving experience and expectation. I have learned this myself in owning one. Revs are MORE important than on a piston engine and the sound is also different (some people shift by ear) and requires a re-training for the driver. These points - revving up and shifting points effect ALL CARS and their performance outcome. On a test drive many people do not come to the experience considering these requirements in the RX8 and try to drive it as they would a "piston based vehicle" and shift early. Naturally the engine to this person would not have any torque.

Now, mind you, if you observe the stated torque specification of 159 foot lbs.@ 5500 RPM it's easy to say that the engine has little torque.

but

there is one point forgotten - High RPM and GEARING to increase that figure.

Paul Frere , a noted sports car officiando, says of the RX8,
"Looking at the engine's performance figures, a maximum torque of 159 ft lbs. seems weak for an engine... but it must be remembered that the rotary revs noticeably faster than comparable piston engines, calling for a much shorter top gear ratio. Calculating the maximum torque available in top gear at the driving wheels, it turns out that it ranges between the figures of a 228 bhp Porsche Boxter and a 260 bhp Boxster S, surely good company."

The Porsche Boxster torque is 192 ft lbs
The Porsche Boxster S torque is 229 ft lbs

The actual torque Frere says is between these two using RPMs and gearing - neither of which are acheived without accessing the RPMS.

Now let's compare BMW specifications

The 325/525 engines have 175 ft lbs @3500 rpm
The 330/530 engines have 214 ft lbs @3500 rpm

These engines provide torque a a relatively low RPM so that a driver would feel the pull at a low speed and "learn" to drive that way. VW/Audi engines are the same way - sacrifice high speed torque for lower speed torque - Take a Passat, or a 325 out on the hwy and go to pass - can't get to the lower RPM for the grunt so you struggle at the torque fall off point to accelerate.

Now, about Physics. The car has perfect weight balance - no BMW has that and a low center of gravity - uniquely acheived by the small engine and overall design. Mazda's structural goal p.42 of the RX8 book was to measureably meet or exceed the M3- in torsional rigidity they equalled, surpassed the M3 in bending stiffness.

Steering? The 5 series was the best driving car I had EVER driven- felt like you were driving on rails or something - better than the 3 series to me - the RX 8 has that feeling to me. I know what you mean about center but that center feel on the 8 is like a notch hole - great.

You see, the issue here is that BMW has been selling fabulous cars (I owned em too) but at a premium price. The RX8 is less luxury but every bit the perfomance and then some of any BMW in its range. I did not bother with going above the 3.3 liter since the next prrogression would allow a Mazda owner to purchase two RX8's for the price of one BMW and that would not be fair to BMW. Really the same is true for motorcycles - Honda Valkyrie or Gold wing is great, but some put their nose up and say give me my BMW cycle as they throw their leg over their mint green painted gas tank with the propeller emblem and ride off in the sunset. You can pay more but greater performance is not guaranteed by nameplate. Just consider BMW/Nikasil.

rx-7~rx-8

THIS IS MESSED UP, you guys are comparing a M3 for rx-8

330Ci - RX-8

M3 - MazdaSpeed RX-8

now thats a fair comparasion... and Mazdaspeed will handle better then M3.

RodsterinFL

Read

I am not comparing just stating the facts.

The RX8 book states that the frame/suspension is equal and superior to the M3 as stated p.42 Yamaguchi.

Not opinion


FACT

8_wannabe

ok, I haven't read all the intermediate replies which seem to have taken a tangent onto some kind of religious war. Getting back to the original question without malice or ire "to those that have or do own a BMW, and have at least had a GOOD test drive of an RX-8, How does it compare to BMW's line ? Which are better in the handing area?"

My wife drives a 2000 323; I had a Honda Odyssey, so naturally I wanted to drive the beemer at any opportunity. After getting the '8 I have no desire whatsover to drive the 323, and will find any excuse not to. The wife doesn't drive stick so there is no option to swap cars, thank goodness.

The BMW is a heavy, bloated rattletrap. It feels and drives heavy and has no prestige since every gardener and secretary in town drives one. It's got endless squeaks and rattles, leather is heavy and stiff, layout of dash and controls is not especially inspirational, maintenance is hugely expensive not to mention repairs. I will say the engine is smooth and powerful, but so what. Maybe it's just a question of personality, and the '8 suits me better. It is fun to drive; the 323 is just a ride.

///M-Spec

Read mine then. Its in the fourth post on PG2.



Sorry you don't like your wife's 323i. But using the entry level car to judge the entire BMW brand doesn't make any sense at all. That's like driving me a base, auto 2000 Protoge and then concluding that Mazda don't know how to build a sports car.



///M-Spec

///M-Spec

RodsterinFL, I do agree that the earlier E46s (99-mid '02) did have pretty sorry suspension calibration. Even the sport models had signifigant body roll and didn't inspire confidence like an E36 sport. Bottom line is that they were too soft in jounce and needed stiffer sway bars.

That being said, it should be noted that BMW had some signifigant changes in late '02 that addresses a lot of these issues, and the latest E46s are exactly where they should be. A 330Ci sport w/18" wheel option is an excellent handling car.

But I do agree that the RX-8 is superior to non-M BMWs (ZHP 330 excepted) in almost every area, except perhaps transitional handling. From a pure mechanical grip stand-point, it bests even the M3.


///M-Spec

Stephan

Thanks Mspec for you replies.

I think we can agree on your last sentence : from a pure non mechanical grip stand point, the RX8 beats the latest M3.

Would like your opinion on something : In another thread, I stated that the FUN factor was higher in the 8. It seems we disagree here, but what surprises me is that so far you are the only one who owns or tested (car mags) an M3 to say it was perfect on the emotional experience.

Could you tell me in which aspect you really think this car is giving more fun than the 8 ?? Don't want to argue there, just that it's interesting.

IMHO, coming from sport motorcycle, I retrieve in the 8 (sound, revs, handling, light?) some of these extraodinary emotions I had.

On the other hand, my experience with the latest M3 (and their salesguys) was deceptive. But I recognize that on a pure efficiency level, the latest M3 are among the best car on the planet. With 911, M5, and some others

Stephan

8_wannabe

Who's judging the whole line? The man asked for BMW owners to rate their experience and that's what I did. He can do with the info what he pleases.

///M-Spec

Stephan;

For the record, I never stated the M3 was more fun to drive than the 8. It does a couple of things better than the 8, but I think overall the 8 is a little better... especially given the pricing difference between the cars.

It's hard to make a conclusion on fun to drive given my short time behind the wheel. I had about 50 minutes in the 8, and conditions permitting, I slid the car around enough to be very impressed with it.

If there's a single character difference I can pin-point between the way BMWs handle and the way an 8 handles, its the feeling of weight. BMWs tend to feel quite substantial and stable, even for their size, and that translates into cornering as well. In some cases it inspires great confidence, in some cases, I find myself waiting for the car to get where I need it to be.

The 8 feels to me like the opposite of that. Its turn-in is more immediate, the chassis a little more fluid. You can link the corners, where as in the M3, you're make a distinct transition into each one. The M3 is about ruthless, brutal efficiency, where as the 8 seems more fluid or ...organic.. for the lack of a better term. Hope that makes sense.


///M-Spec

///M-Spec

You're right. I did read into your statements, whether you intend it or not. I had confused you with the other 323 owner in this thread.


///M-Spec

Stephan

Thanks ! Understood your statement now.

And this confirm my driving impressions : You really can think you are on a sport motorcycle on 4 wheels in a 8, while the M3 are more about the traditionnal BMW experience - a lot more about electronic and large tires, less about the structure of the car itself.

And I don't speak about the brake issue still not solved on M3

Stephan

RodsterinFL

well, I didn't say it the RX8 bible did!

regarding the several comments here "religious war" "I do agree that the mid 99- '02 E46 suspensions were soft"


The point is that the question was raised as to comparison handling of BMW's vs. RX8.

The information I shared in reply are from my personal experiences and from expert reports.

As far as agreeing with me about the E46 ///MSpec, basically BMW models change about every 6 years. So the fact that the E46 was, as you say, softer calibration, as you agreed, but now they have changed is somewhat of an afterthought on BMW's part since the model life is nearly over in a year or so. Therefore, my conclusion on the E46 suspension actually is pretty accurate for the model line as a whole. Perhaps they are beginning to test something for the next iteration - E56?

As far as the newest "sport" models go, sure, they handle well but how much does one have to pay for that extra "sport" designation? When you compare an RX8 to cars which cost SO much more - well, that in itself is a fallacy. The RX8 wins by default. If someone said to me, Pick one, - RX8 GT with $10K cash in the glove box or a BMW 330i sport, I would pick the RX8 any day.

The issue is not to just put down BMW - they handle well. They are a good car. They require lots of money to own and maintain (maint, insurance, etc.) In comparison though as the thread states, by Mazda's specs, the RX8 is every bit of a handler to any of the 3 series cars which just so happen to be BMW's best handlers.

Stephan, Mazda's specifications state that the RX8 is equal to or better than an M3 in "structure itself" this is not my opinion but rather Mazda's own testing results.

///Mspec

This is exactly how I "felt" and similarly described my experience in the seat of the 350Z. Only I said it was heavy feeling and cumbersone IN COMPARISION to the RX8. If I had been unfamiliar with the 8 I would have probably thought the 350Z to be fantastic. It handles well, but...

The fluid feel you mentioned of the 8 is a sign of a better driving car - communication to the car. You said it perfectly of BMW when you said waiting for the car to get where I need it to be! That is why the physics of the RX8 being nearly perfect for performance, make it such a contender to these more expensive cars. Can't beat physics. Now, when the Mazdaspeed 8 comes, I am sure it will surpass the M3 in power as well.