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Common Shifting Techniques

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Old 01-07-2005 | 01:28 PM
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Common Shifting Techniques

Just wanted to discuss common shifting practices.

Like, if you are approaching a turn do you commonly downshift before turn, ride into it in nuetral then **** into the turn, keep same gear etc...

And for straight line takoff. Best launch methods? 4000 rpm clutch drop? Redline every gear?

Im just curios what people do? Im relatively new to manuals and would like to see diff pov's.
Old 01-07-2005 | 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by said7
... then **** into the turn...
I don't think anyone does that...

As for me, I just use the acceleration and brake pedals as necessary.

But in my other car, a 5 speed, I usually shift DURING the turn if I have to, because I like practicing heel-and-toe shifting. Even though I suck at it.
Old 01-07-2005 | 02:36 PM
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I will often use the brakes to slow for a turn, then "coast" through it in neutral, while downshifting and then releasing the clutch coming out of the turn. I used to downshift into turns--actually used to downshift all the time until I went through two clutches at 50,000 miles each. Now I hardly ever downshift to slow down, unless I know I'll be moving in that gear after I do. Brake pad are cheaper than clutches. My limited downshifting resulted in getting 136,000 miles my next car I sold it with no obvious clutch problems.
Old 01-07-2005 | 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick
I don't think anyone does that...
Depends on how fast you're going through the turn.

I usually downshift first and take turns in third
Old 01-07-2005 | 02:47 PM
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Take a high performance driving course. No one drives fast cars better than pros who drive fast cars for a living. Skip Barber has two locations in FL and there are probably others too.

I don't do the ****-during-a-turn thing either. I guess I might try it if I had leather, but my cloth seats would be too difficult to clean. :D
Old 01-07-2005 | 03:00 PM
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Always downshift prior to a turn unless you are cruising at the appropriate speed to begin with...just my $0.02 worth

Regards, Art
Old 01-07-2005 | 03:07 PM
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i shift into second before the turn then throttle into the turn for control. when stopping, i just throw it into neutral and put it in first when i am ready to drive
Old 01-07-2005 | 03:09 PM
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Never coast thru turns... really. that's bad. Make your shift, and do your braking prior - don't use the gear to slow you, select a gear you'll need to be in when you 'exit' the turn.


Gears are for GO
Brakes are for WHOA
Old 01-07-2005 | 03:13 PM
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I don't use the heel/toe in the 8 (haven't found a comfortable way to do it yet - size 13 shoes don't help). Typically I am in my exit gear with the car in a neutral stance (not braking or accelerating) as I enter the turn then I apply power through and out of the turn. I've only had my car for 15,000 miles and am still probing her limits, if I knew them I might take turns a bit more aggressively but I probably won't be 100% comfortable with that until I've had about 50,000 miles of quality time with her.

I haven't dropped the clutch myself...I don't really plan on doing that...the minor gain in acceleration isn't worth the price of a tranny or a clutch IMO.
Old 01-07-2005 | 03:18 PM
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OK, this is what I do...

Normal "relaxed" driving:

Shift to next gear between 3250-4000RPM
Depending on speed going into the turn, around the city I downshift but getting off the highway I coast.

Something about stick's, every car tends to have a shift point it likes. With the RX8 it seems the lower gears like to shift at 4K while the rest are happy with 3.25-3.50K shifts. I'm still breaking her in but that is my plan to maximize relatively quick launches while maximizing fuel economy.

Note: When playing with the car as you know, 9K is where the fun comes from...LOL

I can't wait to try that, I have never had a car go over about 6.8K...I'm a little scared to go that high...LOL
Old 01-07-2005 | 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MTCD01
I don't use the heel/toe in the 8 (haven't found a comfortable way to do it yet - size 13 shoes don't help). Typically I am in my exit gear with the car in a neutral stance (not braking or accelerating) as I enter the turn then I apply power through and out of the turn.

Bingo!
Old 01-07-2005 | 04:13 PM
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LMFAO i didnt mean to say ****. hahah

touche
Old 01-07-2005 | 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dmp
Never coast thru turns... really. that's bad. Make your shift, and do your braking prior - don't use the gear to slow you, select a gear you'll need to be in when you 'exit' the turn.


Gears are for GO
Brakes are for WHOA
Not really you can make your brakes last alot longer if you downshift plus then your in gear and can accelerate thro the turn for better handling
Old 01-07-2005 | 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by strayer2189
Not really you can make your brakes last alot longer if you downshift
Do you have much experience racing/track days?

which would you rather replace - $80 brake pads, or $800 transmissions?


I'm saying, be already down-shifted PRIOR to the turn...
Old 01-07-2005 | 04:40 PM
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i have raced my dads vette once....hes friend races bikes for tachyon racing and they had there cars on the track for a day and they told me to downshift instead of getting onto the brakes (plus countless hours talking about it and riding w/ him in hes porsche).........downshifting wont tear up the transmission if you do it right......yea i agree with that be in the gear you wanna take it in when you come to the turn and accelerate throu the turn
Old 01-07-2005 | 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by strayer2189
i have raced my dads vette once....hes friend races bikes for tachyon racing and they had there cars on the track for a day and they told me to downshift instead of getting onto the brakes (plus countless hours talking about it and riding w/ him in hes porsche).........downshifting wont tear up the transmission if you do it right......yea i agree with that be in the gear you wanna take it in when you come to the turn and accelerate throu the turn

I hope they didn't teach you, as you are suggesting, to use the GEARS to slow the car...that's my point.
Old 01-07-2005 | 04:46 PM
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to a point is what they said not to a stop they said only go down to maybe third but at higher speeds instead of getting on the breaks hard and gettin em to the point where your gonna have to wait for them to cool down instead to slow down downshift one maybe to gears to as well as light breaking that way if you need the brakes at a later point they wont be red hott and wont help ya
Old 01-07-2005 | 04:47 PM
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I like to brake late goin into turns, downshift into 2nd or 3rd depending on how sharp the turn, hit the apex and floor it to 9k shift hit 9k in the next gear and so on, I wouldnt recomend popping the clutch in the middle of a turn, these cars really like to kick the tail end out (oversteer), also wouldnt recomend dumping the clutch, instead start out with a smooth engagement and floor it, the tranny's, at least mine tends to work much smoother when im gentle with it, if I try to shift hard like I did in my honda then ill miss shift or grind the gears, not good, as far as downshifting its not a bad thing, and whoever has an 8 and had never hit 9k, what the hell are you waiting for, peace.
Old 01-07-2005 | 04:54 PM
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From a safety stand point:

I believe that the idea came from a racing driver, who was commissioned to write a manual for police drivers in the mid-Thirties. That was refined into the Roadcraft textbook, which was recently updated yet still applies the relatively dogmatic "brakes to slow, gears to go" maxim. This simply states that, on approach to any hazard, speed should be lost by applying the brakes before the correct gear is established. This gear, when selected with thought and application, is then used to negotiate the hazard and also to accelerate away from it.

I do not endorse this technique merely because it was established more than 65 years ago, nor because it is used by police drivers, for whom I have the utmost respect. I use and recommend it because it works, the same reason why the Department of Transport adopted it for novice drivers and why the police and advanced driving organisations have used it for many years.

Nobody ever suggested that "brakes to slow, gears to go" was the top priority in achieving a smooth, safe drive. It is just one of hundreds of elements that need a fresh approach and new understanding when improving your driving. As you rightly say, you have to want to do it.

Many readers ask why one should use the brakes to slow, rather than changing gear. The main reason is that the brakes operate on all four wheels, which enhances stability, while changing gear only affects the driven wheels. It is also easier for a driver, who is bombarded with information every second, to press the brake pedal rather than operating both the gearlever and clutch - and allows him to fine-tune the speed reduction required, according to circumstances.

Changing gear, while it does reduce speed, tends to be less smooth than sensitive application of the brakes. And braking means that drive is retained, which enhances control and can prevent the wheels locking in an emergency in cars without ABS assistance.

Some of these elements might not have great significance in isolation, yet together they make great sense and assist driver efficiency, leading to improved safety.

So, whenever possible, use the brakes to slow the vehicle (if easing the throttle is not enough) and select one gear with which to negotiate and leave the hazard. It might be helpful to apply the "driving plan" of Mirror, Signal, Position, Speed, Gear before the hazard. For example, if you would normally negotiate a certain bend in second gear but are approaching in fourth, first check your mirrors so you know what's behind. A signal is not necessary on this occasion, but remember that brake lights are a form of communication with following drivers.

Think about your position on the road, which should assist the views ahead and maintain safety margins. Then the magic ingredient, speed: use your brakes as appropriate but don't change down to third gear. When you decide that your corner entry speed is right, then select second gear. In effect, this technique involves missing out intermediate gears while braking. As ever, it's a case of developing many skills and using the one that best fits the situation.

It is absolutely correct to say that concentration, observation and awareness play a vital part in ensuring safety for all.

Even more important is attitude, which I believe to be 80 per cent of safety. However, we cannot force other drivers to aspire to improvement - we can only strive to make our own driving safer so that we don't get involved in other people's stupid, avoidable accidents.

:D
Old 01-07-2005 | 04:58 PM
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i stand corrected ill be sure to point that out next time i see em
Old 01-07-2005 | 05:03 PM
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I heel-toe - well really its more like toe-toe. I brake for turn, engage the clutch. While my foot is on the brake and clutch I roll the right side of my brakefoot onto the accelrator to bring the rev's up to match the gear I will be going down at that particualr speed. Then I accelerate through the turn.

I've been practicing this for a few months and when I do it well I fell like a racecar driver! :D
Old 01-07-2005 | 05:06 PM
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I heel and toe to get to the proper gear and slowing down before the turn. But depends on what shoes I wear because some are too big to heel-toe, it's easiest to do so without any shoes on.
Old 01-07-2005 | 05:40 PM
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Dont forget the most important part of performance driving, always keep your eyes looking in the direction you want the car to go, your hands follow your eyes.
Old 01-07-2005 | 05:45 PM
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Not really you can make your brakes last alot longer if you downshift plus then your in gear and can accelerate thro the turn for better handling
Sorry, but dmp is correct on this one. Using your gearbox for entry braking is MUCH slower than using your brakes. It's also less controlled, which means it's more dangerous. Stand next to a racetrack near a turn entry. You won't hear or see pro drivers using their gearboxes to slow their vehicles.

Saving your brake pads by wearing out your clutch isn't saving at all. Guess which costs way more to replace?

Once you've finished decelerating into a turn you and he (and I) are in agreement on how to move through the center of the turn: in gear and holding the car on line with the throttle. You're just using different words.

He said: no coasting through a turn, select your exit gear and be in that

You said: be in gear and power through, which implies that you're in your exit gear

I'm lucky to have nice, petite size 9's. Heel and toe's easy for me in the 8, as it was in my RX-7's. If you want to get through a turn as fast as possible with control:
1. Pick the highest possible entry line and entry speed (another topic)
2. Identify the apex, know what speed you can carry through it and what gear will place you low in the power band (let's say around 4-5K) at that speed
3. Wait 'til the last possible moment before braking at the entry point, then brake HARD as you...
4. Dive the car in toward the apex (the 8 will virtually go there by itself if you just point your eyes at it)
5. Heel-and-toe downshift into your exit gear (the one you chose in step 2)
6. Off the brake, hold the car on line with the throttle as you pass the apex
7. Bury the throttle, upshift and repeat

Turns with lengthy or multi-radius entries may require more than one gear between entry and apex, but they are the exceptions to the rule. The other day I hit a favorite corner with no cars, pedestrians or dogs in sight. Woo-hoo! I braked LATE and HARD from 70 in 5th to 35 as I turned in, heel-and-toed directly into 2nd and stomped on it passing the apex. Zoom! Anyone downshift-braking into that turn would have lost ten car lengths on me.
Old 01-07-2005 | 11:06 PM
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dmp and spinning again are on the right track. (Although if spinning again is regularly braking and downshifting after he turns into the corner, it is likely the reason for his name.

In a racing environment, at the end of a straight you want to brake as late as possible (to maximize the time you are traveling at high speed). You want to use the brakes to decelerate the car rather than the engine for several reasons (1) the brakes have more braking power than the engine (2) the brakes act on all four wheels rather than just the back two wheels so will keep the car more neutral (3) brakes are a heck of alot cheaper than engines/clutches, transmissions.

As the speed of the car decreases you shift down in gears one at a time until you are in the desired gear you will use to exit the corner. As you are braking, you have to wait until the car speed is slow enough that you aren't going to over rev the engine as you shift into the next lower gear. Racers traditionally used heal/toe double clutch downshifting to match the engine speed to the transmission as they shift to the next lower gear (For instance shifting from 4th to 3rd, while braking you put in the clutch shift from fourth to neutral, release the clutch, blip the throttle with the right side of your braking foot to increase the engine speed, put in the clutch shift to third, and release the clutch. This can also be done without the clutch if you are good). If the engine speed and transmission speed don't match as you downshift it will temporarily jerk the drive wheels disrupting their traction and possibly sending the back end around.

When downshifting multiple gears going into a corner, a general rule of thumb would be to downshift the first gear 1/2 of the way through the braking zone, the next gear 1/4 of the way, the next gear 1/8 of the way etc. Your speed is drastically decreasing as you progress through the braking zone so the time it takes to go through the first 1/2 of the braking zone is comparable to the time to go through the next 1/4.

Generally, you want to do all of your braking and downshifting while still going straight, before you turn into the corner. If you are braking and turning at the same time you are asking your tires to do two things at once and you can't brake as hard as you can if you weren't turning, and can't turn as hard as if you were braking. On some sharp corners, trail braking is used where you purposely brake while turning into the corner to help rotate the rear end around the corner.

The whole braking process transfers weight from the rear of the car to the front of the car so typically as you turn into the corner you want to begin accelerating to transfer weight back to the rear tires of the car.

Of course driving on the street you shouldn't be driving anywhere near the adhesion limits of your RX-8 so you can vary from the above practices significantly.

When I took a Skip Barber 3 day intro to racing course, the whole braking as hard as possible, heal/toe double clutch shifting was definitely the hardest part of the class.


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