Dealer claims printed TSBs copyright infringement.
08-01-2007, 05:03 PM
#51
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Mazda could easily point out the amount of money they are loosing by people finding a TSB online and then making the dealer fix this "problem" when in alot of cases they don't even have a problem in the first place...
...I could find hundreds of such cases on this forum in a matter of minutes. Thats probably cost Mazda a couple hundred thousand dollars easily. I'm still suprised our favorite vendor hasn't been nailed for this yet.
...I could find hundreds of such cases on this forum in a matter of minutes. Thats probably cost Mazda a couple hundred thousand dollars easily. I'm still suprised our favorite vendor hasn't been nailed for this yet.
Think of it this way. If you show the tech the TSB on your laptop, you have not infringed their copyright even as they have characterised it. By printing it, you have simply transferred it into a simpler and easier to use form. It doesn't mean that you have harmed Mazda at all or enriched yourself. There is no damage.
Publishing the TSBs to the web might be actionable and have a damage element, but that is only because they are reproducing the actual printed Mazda TSBs. If you simply wrote a synopsis of what you have read in the TSB, then there is no infringement, and if Mazda attempts to sue to prevent the Dealership from disseminating Mazda information, they are going to have a host of ugly first amendment arguments to overcome as defenses, but that is a horse of another color.
When customers present TSBs to dealers and ask for warranty repairs, Mazda has to make a business to decision whether to make the repair under warranty or not. I have no idea why they are replacing the parts that they are under warranty, especially after the first year. I too have heard of person after person asking for replacement of undamaged parts or wear parts simply because there is a TSB. The dealer submits to Mazda and Mazda pays raising all of our purchase prices for the car, assuming that the warranty repairs exceed the amount that they have insured the issues for from third parties, but that has nothing to do with whether a customer prints the TSB or not.
The dealer's claim that a customer printing the TSB is a copyright infringement is laughable IMHO.
08-01-2007, 06:41 PM
#52
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your looking at a steel pillar instead of the entire bridge...
The whole disclaimer section is there to signify the TSB's are for use by Mazda and only Mazda. If followed by the rules, only Mazda techs see the TSB's and can not duplicate them by any means anywhere. The disclaimer is not written specifically for car owners because they should not be able to see them in the first place!
they say...
- Its only for mazda trained techns
- not for the DIY'er
- not every car will experience this problem
- check with Mazda before fixing
- and under no circumstance copy the TSBs without written approval by Mazda
The whole disclaimer section is there to signify the TSB's are for use by Mazda and only Mazda. If followed by the rules, only Mazda techs see the TSB's and can not duplicate them by any means anywhere. The disclaimer is not written specifically for car owners because they should not be able to see them in the first place!
they say...
- Its only for mazda trained techns
- not for the DIY'er
- not every car will experience this problem
- check with Mazda before fixing
- and under no circumstance copy the TSBs without written approval by Mazda
08-01-2007, 07:39 PM
#53
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Their arguement is a moot point because TSBs, while made to help techs find and fix problems, are accessible almost anywhere. If I signed up for data on my car through ALL DATA I'd be able to see every TSB put out for my car. If a company like them can provide us with that data I see no reason as to why we can't print it out for reference.
08-01-2007, 09:22 PM
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Thank you that answers part of my question.
08-01-2007, 09:25 PM
#56
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this thread is useless without posting the name of the idiot dealership
it never hurts to educate yourself
http://www.ascd.org/authors/ed_lead/...2_simpson.html
it never hurts to educate yourself
http://www.ascd.org/authors/ed_lead/...2_simpson.html
No I disagree with the first part. I do not plan to slander anyone until I'm positive I'm in the right.
And I was trying to educate myself by asking here for insight. The useless part of this thread are all the G35 comments.
08-01-2007, 09:31 PM
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That damage isn't recompensible through a copyright claim. The damage has to come from the republication without authorization. Showing the tech the TSB is not the copyright problem that Mazda is attempting to characterize. They are trying to characterize printing it from your computer as a copyright infringement, which it almost certainly isn't. It fits so comfortably within the fair use exception to copyright infringement that I think any action must fail, but if it succeeded as a matter of law, the damage is as close to nil as could possibly be.
Think of it this way. If you show the tech the TSB on your laptop, you have not infringed their copyright even as they have characterised it. By printing it, you have simply transferred it into a simpler and easier to use form. It doesn't mean that you have harmed Mazda at all or enriched yourself. There is no damage.
Publishing the TSBs to the web might be actionable and have a damage element, but that is only because they are reproducing the actual printed Mazda TSBs. If you simply wrote a synopsis of what you have read in the TSB, then there is no infringement, and if Mazda attempts to sue to prevent the Dealership from disseminating Mazda information, they are going to have a host of ugly first amendment arguments to overcome as defenses, but that is a horse of another color.
When customers present TSBs to dealers and ask for warranty repairs, Mazda has to make a business to decision whether to make the repair under warranty or not. I have no idea why they are replacing the parts that they are under warranty, especially after the first year. I too have heard of person after person asking for replacement of undamaged parts or wear parts simply because there is a TSB. The dealer submits to Mazda and Mazda pays raising all of our purchase prices for the car, assuming that the warranty repairs exceed the amount that they have insured the issues for from third parties, but that has nothing to do with whether a customer prints the TSB or not.
The dealer's claim that a customer printing the TSB is a copyright infringement is laughable IMHO.
Think of it this way. If you show the tech the TSB on your laptop, you have not infringed their copyright even as they have characterised it. By printing it, you have simply transferred it into a simpler and easier to use form. It doesn't mean that you have harmed Mazda at all or enriched yourself. There is no damage.
Publishing the TSBs to the web might be actionable and have a damage element, but that is only because they are reproducing the actual printed Mazda TSBs. If you simply wrote a synopsis of what you have read in the TSB, then there is no infringement, and if Mazda attempts to sue to prevent the Dealership from disseminating Mazda information, they are going to have a host of ugly first amendment arguments to overcome as defenses, but that is a horse of another color.
When customers present TSBs to dealers and ask for warranty repairs, Mazda has to make a business to decision whether to make the repair under warranty or not. I have no idea why they are replacing the parts that they are under warranty, especially after the first year. I too have heard of person after person asking for replacement of undamaged parts or wear parts simply because there is a TSB. The dealer submits to Mazda and Mazda pays raising all of our purchase prices for the car, assuming that the warranty repairs exceed the amount that they have insured the issues for from third parties, but that has nothing to do with whether a customer prints the TSB or not.
The dealer's claim that a customer printing the TSB is a copyright infringement is laughable IMHO.
I was not trying to milk mazda for free pointless repairs. I simply wanted the dealer to inspect issues I had been having with my car that happened to be known and commom enough to have TSBs issued.
I feel this copyright issue is way out in left field. If I am in the wrong I'd be more then happy to admit it, but I'll never go to that dealer again for service or to purchase the cx7 my wife wanted.
08-01-2007, 09:33 PM
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Their arguement is a moot point because TSBs, while made to help techs find and fix problems, are accessible almost anywhere. If I signed up for data on my car through ALL DATA I'd be able to see every TSB put out for my car. If a company like them can provide us with that data I see no reason as to why we can't print it out for reference.
08-02-2007, 06:22 AM
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FWIW, Here is what I do/did.
Print the TSB you are having trouble with. Put it in the glove box. Dont bring it into the service office. Write down the TSB number on a slip of paper.
When you talk to the "service advisor" tell them the symptoms verbatim from what the TSB says. Dont deviate from them. Dont mention the TSB.
When you get resistance say, "I think there is a service bulletin or something about this, isnt there?" Play coy.
When they say no, say, "Yeah I think I read it someplace on the internet, I have a number." Pull out your little slip of paper and read it off.
The should look it up themselves.
Only if they "can't find it" do you say "I may have a copy in the car, want to see it?"
This way you dont step on any toes and you actually may get the work done.
I know its a stupid game but I have had some success. Good luck.
Print the TSB you are having trouble with. Put it in the glove box. Dont bring it into the service office. Write down the TSB number on a slip of paper.
When you talk to the "service advisor" tell them the symptoms verbatim from what the TSB says. Dont deviate from them. Dont mention the TSB.
When you get resistance say, "I think there is a service bulletin or something about this, isnt there?" Play coy.
When they say no, say, "Yeah I think I read it someplace on the internet, I have a number." Pull out your little slip of paper and read it off.
The should look it up themselves.
Only if they "can't find it" do you say "I may have a copy in the car, want to see it?"
This way you dont step on any toes and you actually may get the work done.
I know its a stupid game but I have had some success. Good luck.
08-02-2007, 07:05 AM
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we have a bumper to bumper warranty for anything except wear parts, so of course they have to do it for free (if you actually have that problem). Once the warranty is up, you will get to pay for the work...
...and All Data purchases the rights from Mazda to duplicate the TSB's
here is an idea...
If you have a problem with your car, take it to the dealer, describe the actual problem you have, maybe a suggestion to what the problem is, and let the tech do what he does for a living (find and fix problems)... then you won't have problems with the attitude people get when a stranger shoves a piece of paper in their face and tells you how to do your job because they believe you are incompetent.
...and All Data purchases the rights from Mazda to duplicate the TSB's
here is an idea...
If you have a problem with your car, take it to the dealer, describe the actual problem you have, maybe a suggestion to what the problem is, and let the tech do what he does for a living (find and fix problems)... then you won't have problems with the attitude people get when a stranger shoves a piece of paper in their face and tells you how to do your job because they believe you are incompetent.
Last edited by r0tor; 08-02-2007 at 07:11 AM.
08-02-2007, 07:10 AM
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The title of the TSB is also available from several sources - which is not an infringement of Mazda's policy because only the title is given and not the actual document. This is a fairly common practice in most legal documents...
08-02-2007, 09:53 AM
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I like your idea of telling the dealer the symptoms, and letting them figure it out and fix it. Even if I think I know what's wrong, and tell the mechanic, I make sure to tell him the symptoms and ask that he check it out.
Despite all the bad-mouthing of dealers and techs, this is what those guys do for a living. They do have training, and IMHO most mechanics/techs go into that line of work because they're into cars. Over the years (decades, actually) I've generally had much better results at dealers than at non-dealer shops. I think I've had fewer goofs when I do stuff myself, but with today's cars there is so much less I can do myself.
Ken
08-02-2007, 10:29 AM
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My car had been experiencing some known issues recently including front brake squeal and weak A/C. I had to take it in for condensation in the rear combi light so I figured I would also have them looking into the issue mentioned above.
In order to make my concerns clear I printed the TSBs from a very popular link I found on this site.
I got a call from the service manager saying the follow:
1. those bulletins don't not apply and are not under warranty. They'd be happy to replace my pads for $240 and charge my AC for $175.
2. Did I read the disclaimer at the bottom as Mazda only intends for me to "read these online" and that printing them and bringing them to the dealer was "infringement"
He said some people there did see them but he'd take care of it.
So while I understand mazda's disclaimer I am a bit dumbfounded by the service managers comments.
Any comments before I unload some of my thoughts?
In order to make my concerns clear I printed the TSBs from a very popular link I found on this site.
I got a call from the service manager saying the follow:
1. those bulletins don't not apply and are not under warranty. They'd be happy to replace my pads for $240 and charge my AC for $175.
2. Did I read the disclaimer at the bottom as Mazda only intends for me to "read these online" and that printing them and bringing them to the dealer was "infringement"
He said some people there did see them but he'd take care of it.
So while I understand mazda's disclaimer I am a bit dumbfounded by the service managers comments.
Any comments before I unload some of my thoughts?
I am an expert in the field of copyright law, trade secrets, patents, etc. In no possible way was the manager even remotely close to being right. I can't comment as an expert on the warranty, but I can testify in a court of law as an expert on copyright infringement, and I am sure I am right here. I also feel strongly (this is more of an opinion and has nothing to do with my qualifications and certifications) that the manager is an ******* and doesn't know what he is talking about (at least in the matters of copyrights).
Now, if you took material from the TSBs and claimed or published it as your own work, things would be different.
08-02-2007, 01:21 PM
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your looking at a steel pillar instead of the entire bridge...
The whole disclaimer section is there to signify the TSB's are for use by Mazda and only Mazda. If followed by the rules, only Mazda techs see the TSB's and can not duplicate them by any means anywhere. The disclaimer is not written specifically for car owners because they should not be able to see them in the first place!
they say...
- Its only for mazda trained techns
- not for the DIY'er
- not every car will experience this problem
- check with Mazda before fixing
- and under no circumstance copy the TSBs without written approval by Mazda
The whole disclaimer section is there to signify the TSB's are for use by Mazda and only Mazda. If followed by the rules, only Mazda techs see the TSB's and can not duplicate them by any means anywhere. The disclaimer is not written specifically for car owners because they should not be able to see them in the first place!
they say...
- Its only for mazda trained techns
- not for the DIY'er
- not every car will experience this problem
- check with Mazda before fixing
- and under no circumstance copy the TSBs without written approval by Mazda
It is not possible to copyright an idea only an expression of an idea.
08-02-2007, 05:34 PM
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They are making TSB's official documents that should not be copied in any means... like an inter-office confiential dcuments with the main goal of spreading the same document around with it not being altered in any fashion and only seen by people you want to see it.
08-02-2007, 05:59 PM
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I'll first admit to not reading the entire thread, but that being said, I wanted to tell you this:
I am an expert in the field of copyright law, trade secrets, patents, etc. In no possible way was the manager even remotely close to being right. I can't comment as an expert on the warranty, but I can testify in a court of law as an expert on copyright infringement, and I am sure I am right here. I also feel strongly (this is more of an opinion and has nothing to do with my qualifications and certifications) that the manager is an ******* and doesn't know what he is talking about (at least in the matters of copyrights).
Now, if you took material from the TSBs and claimed or published it as your own work, things would be different.
I am an expert in the field of copyright law, trade secrets, patents, etc. In no possible way was the manager even remotely close to being right. I can't comment as an expert on the warranty, but I can testify in a court of law as an expert on copyright infringement, and I am sure I am right here. I also feel strongly (this is more of an opinion and has nothing to do with my qualifications and certifications) that the manager is an ******* and doesn't know what he is talking about (at least in the matters of copyrights).
Now, if you took material from the TSBs and claimed or published it as your own work, things would be different.
Thank you Duke15. More of my questions answered don't worry about the rest of the posts, most are pointless for this conversation. I'm glad you contributed
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