Does the RX8 Put Too Much Emphasis on the Rear Passengers?
12-07-2002 | 04:39 PM
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Does the RX8 Put Too Much Emphasis on the Rear Passengers?
One of my biggest concerns about this car has been the amount of energy focused on rear passenger leg and headroom, etc.
The most obvious effect is the extended wheel base and roofline (with the shortened, higher angle rear window). While I was reading other car forum boards during the server crash (which made me really appreciate the quality of the posts on this forum!), the opinions on the looks of the car seem very mixed. A common opinion was that "it just looks a little odd" which seems to be mostly due to the extended wheel base and roofline (with the shortened, higher angle rear window). This is not a good thing in the world of sports cars where image is almost as important as performance! However, I think mazda's new aggressive styling of the car, may be in part to shift the attention of a person to the lines of the car and away from the "odd" part of it. It does seem that people who have seen the car in person have a better opinion on its looks.
My other and bigger concern will be the affect of this emphasis on performance. In engineering there are always compromises in designs and my fear is that this design will compromise performance. I cringe when I hear "rear passenger comfort", "ride quality", etc. The car's length is about roughly midway between the sporty coupes/hatchbacks (celica/rsx)/old rx7 and an M3 which is about the maximum I can accept (I can't stand long cars...I love being able to manuever the car easily). I am not happy with the suicide doors, I think their benefit (rear passenger ease of entry and exit) is not great enough to justify the extra cost (i.e. additional weight, looks, extra R&D), however, I guess they would make a convertible option more doable? There are many cars out there that are far less "sporty" that have two door designs with four door options (i.e. BMW 3 series, Acura CL and TL, G35, etc).
I will admit the idea of a 4 passenger sports car is interesting (most people used to equate that with sports sedan), but I do not think THIS rotary engine is the right choice (though it is a phenomenal powerplant for a roadster, cramped 2X2 design, etc). I just can't see this car feeling that sporty when it weighs 3800 lbs.
A lot has been said about mazda's use of rotaries in the future will depend on the success on this car, which I only think is partially correct. If this rotary was unreliable, I would agree with that (which I don't beleive should be a problem). This powerplant is amazing....its power and torque curves are very similar to honda's i-vtec, which is extremely successful. It may also be comptetive in terms of fuel efficiency based on some of the fuel economy estimates flying around. There is no way mazda would throw all of that R&D $ away if the RX8 was not a success because it failed as a new niche vehicle.
As you could probobly guess, I would have much preferred a sporty hatchback (i.e. celica/rsx w/ rwd of course!) or a 1st and 2nd generation rx7/80's 300zx design (i.e. 2 seats w/o back seat, but trunk connecting to the cockpit). I do not intend to carry people in the backseat except for emergencies (so if they want to ride back there..they know its not supposed to be comfortable!). My need for something back there as opposed to a roadster or a 350zx/3rd generation design is that most of my enthusiastic driving occurs when I go hiking (w/ my dog) and its also easier to store things when i occasionally need to. Unfortunately, RWD sporty hatchbacks like these seem to be mostly a thing of the past. Perhaps, the future rx7 will have this design...at least as an option. I think i heard someone on here mention at an auto show a mazda rep floated around the idea of like 8 designs being used off this chassis or the renesis?
I guess what it comes down to is how effectively mazda can minimize these inherent compromises. The enthusiast (i.e. myself and i imagine a lot of the readers on here) will not buy this car if it is not at least competetive with sports cars in its price range (i.e. 350zx and s2000). The family guy/girl..or young couple will have to feel its comfortable enough AND cool enough (looking and driving) to justify the purchase. It should be interesting to see how it ends up working.
The most obvious effect is the extended wheel base and roofline (with the shortened, higher angle rear window). While I was reading other car forum boards during the server crash (which made me really appreciate the quality of the posts on this forum!), the opinions on the looks of the car seem very mixed. A common opinion was that "it just looks a little odd" which seems to be mostly due to the extended wheel base and roofline (with the shortened, higher angle rear window). This is not a good thing in the world of sports cars where image is almost as important as performance! However, I think mazda's new aggressive styling of the car, may be in part to shift the attention of a person to the lines of the car and away from the "odd" part of it. It does seem that people who have seen the car in person have a better opinion on its looks.
My other and bigger concern will be the affect of this emphasis on performance. In engineering there are always compromises in designs and my fear is that this design will compromise performance. I cringe when I hear "rear passenger comfort", "ride quality", etc. The car's length is about roughly midway between the sporty coupes/hatchbacks (celica/rsx)/old rx7 and an M3 which is about the maximum I can accept (I can't stand long cars...I love being able to manuever the car easily). I am not happy with the suicide doors, I think their benefit (rear passenger ease of entry and exit) is not great enough to justify the extra cost (i.e. additional weight, looks, extra R&D), however, I guess they would make a convertible option more doable? There are many cars out there that are far less "sporty" that have two door designs with four door options (i.e. BMW 3 series, Acura CL and TL, G35, etc).
I will admit the idea of a 4 passenger sports car is interesting (most people used to equate that with sports sedan), but I do not think THIS rotary engine is the right choice (though it is a phenomenal powerplant for a roadster, cramped 2X2 design, etc). I just can't see this car feeling that sporty when it weighs 3800 lbs.
A lot has been said about mazda's use of rotaries in the future will depend on the success on this car, which I only think is partially correct. If this rotary was unreliable, I would agree with that (which I don't beleive should be a problem). This powerplant is amazing....its power and torque curves are very similar to honda's i-vtec, which is extremely successful. It may also be comptetive in terms of fuel efficiency based on some of the fuel economy estimates flying around. There is no way mazda would throw all of that R&D $ away if the RX8 was not a success because it failed as a new niche vehicle.
As you could probobly guess, I would have much preferred a sporty hatchback (i.e. celica/rsx w/ rwd of course!) or a 1st and 2nd generation rx7/80's 300zx design (i.e. 2 seats w/o back seat, but trunk connecting to the cockpit). I do not intend to carry people in the backseat except for emergencies (so if they want to ride back there..they know its not supposed to be comfortable!). My need for something back there as opposed to a roadster or a 350zx/3rd generation design is that most of my enthusiastic driving occurs when I go hiking (w/ my dog) and its also easier to store things when i occasionally need to. Unfortunately, RWD sporty hatchbacks like these seem to be mostly a thing of the past. Perhaps, the future rx7 will have this design...at least as an option. I think i heard someone on here mention at an auto show a mazda rep floated around the idea of like 8 designs being used off this chassis or the renesis?
I guess what it comes down to is how effectively mazda can minimize these inherent compromises. The enthusiast (i.e. myself and i imagine a lot of the readers on here) will not buy this car if it is not at least competetive with sports cars in its price range (i.e. 350zx and s2000). The family guy/girl..or young couple will have to feel its comfortable enough AND cool enough (looking and driving) to justify the purchase. It should be interesting to see how it ends up working.
12-07-2002 | 05:05 PM
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I think you make some excellent points about the compromises inherent in the car's design...but I also believe (and this may have been discussed here before) that Mazda needs to bring to market a rotary powered sports car with some broader appeal. Thus the design of the RX-8.
After success with this version others will come...
After success with this version others will come...
12-07-2002 | 05:05 PM
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Few things...
First of all, the RX-8 is aimed at a target market that enjoys a BMW, where you need some rear seat room but don't want to give up performance. There will be compromises because of the design in rear seating, but the RX-7 will take over in that respect hopefully sometime in 2005.
Next, you mention a 3800lbs weight.. Where's you get that number from? The highest estimate I've seen (and this is an old number) is 2930 lbs.
The car you are looking for is not the RX-8 from what you've posted, but rather the RX-7 which should be a no-compromise sports machine. The RX-8 is a balance between performance and usability, and is idea for me.
I think a LOT of people will get this car because of enthusiasm over the rotary engine. While you compare it to the Vtec Honda makes, there's really no comparison. While that 4 banger from the S2000 is a great high revver, rotary engines are much more willing AND able at higher RPMs making them ideal track cars.
I think Mazda is going back to its roots. If you look at prior history with the 626 and Millenia, they are cars aimed at a mass market appeal. They went for sporty and luxurious in the Millenia and wound up accomplishing neither. The RX-8 is aimed at performance buyers who need room in the back. Not to mention, while Mazda could have increased displacement, or had a third rotor etc... the appeal of this car is not so much in the power, but the DELIVERY of that power and moreso, a Mazda trademark -- its handling.
I think buyers who drive the car will understand what telepathic handling is, especially those who appreciated the old RX-7s from Mazda.
Each car was ahead of its game in terms of handling, and the RX-7 was ahead even in terms of speed (with poor reliability as a result). I think the RX-8 is a good looking car, with unique doors (that I do like), decent room and enough get-up-and-go for me to be a happy camper.
The old saying goes, if you can't go fast in a 90 horsepower car, you can't go fast in a 900 horsepower car. Same applies.
Cheers!
First of all, the RX-8 is aimed at a target market that enjoys a BMW, where you need some rear seat room but don't want to give up performance. There will be compromises because of the design in rear seating, but the RX-7 will take over in that respect hopefully sometime in 2005.
Next, you mention a 3800lbs weight.. Where's you get that number from? The highest estimate I've seen (and this is an old number) is 2930 lbs.
The car you are looking for is not the RX-8 from what you've posted, but rather the RX-7 which should be a no-compromise sports machine. The RX-8 is a balance between performance and usability, and is idea for me.
I think a LOT of people will get this car because of enthusiasm over the rotary engine. While you compare it to the Vtec Honda makes, there's really no comparison. While that 4 banger from the S2000 is a great high revver, rotary engines are much more willing AND able at higher RPMs making them ideal track cars.
I think Mazda is going back to its roots. If you look at prior history with the 626 and Millenia, they are cars aimed at a mass market appeal. They went for sporty and luxurious in the Millenia and wound up accomplishing neither. The RX-8 is aimed at performance buyers who need room in the back. Not to mention, while Mazda could have increased displacement, or had a third rotor etc... the appeal of this car is not so much in the power, but the DELIVERY of that power and moreso, a Mazda trademark -- its handling.
I think buyers who drive the car will understand what telepathic handling is, especially those who appreciated the old RX-7s from Mazda.
Each car was ahead of its game in terms of handling, and the RX-7 was ahead even in terms of speed (with poor reliability as a result). I think the RX-8 is a good looking car, with unique doors (that I do like), decent room and enough get-up-and-go for me to be a happy camper.
The old saying goes, if you can't go fast in a 90 horsepower car, you can't go fast in a 900 horsepower car. Same applies.
Cheers!
12-07-2002 | 05:14 PM
#4
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From: Aurora, CO
I have always felt that the ideal application to take advantage of the rotary would be a small 2 seater.
The rx-8 is a necessary step that will hopefully lead to the small 2 seater next. While I believe the acceleration performance will be very good, I agree that it will not be quite sporty with 4 200 pound passengers. A car with higher torque like the Maxima or G35 would be more ideal if you are always going to have 800 extra pounds in people.
Brian
The rx-8 is a necessary step that will hopefully lead to the small 2 seater next. While I believe the acceleration performance will be very good, I agree that it will not be quite sporty with 4 200 pound passengers. A car with higher torque like the Maxima or G35 would be more ideal if you are always going to have 800 extra pounds in people.
Brian
12-07-2002 | 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by Buger
I have always felt that the ideal application to take advantage of the rotary would be a small 2 seater.
The rx-8 is a necessary step that will hopefully lead to the small 2 seater next. While I believe the acceleration performance will be very good, I agree that it will not be quite sporty with 4 200 pound passengers. A car with higher torque like the Maxima or G35 would be more ideal if you are always going to have 800 extra pounds in people.
Brian
I have always felt that the ideal application to take advantage of the rotary would be a small 2 seater.
The rx-8 is a necessary step that will hopefully lead to the small 2 seater next. While I believe the acceleration performance will be very good, I agree that it will not be quite sporty with 4 200 pound passengers. A car with higher torque like the Maxima or G35 would be more ideal if you are always going to have 800 extra pounds in people.
Brian
The historical problem for me has always been, that I have to take it easy when people ride with me :P
It's nice to have the utility of it though.. I really just want a place I can throw a bookbag or something ideally, and if a friend or two want to come along then I'm happy to take them.
12-07-2002 | 05:53 PM
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Hercules,
I think a large portion of the target market is from the sports sedan crowd, but this car is intending to pull other target markets too (i.e. sports car, sporty coupe and some family sedan). In regards to the sports sedan market, especially BMW, a lot of the buyers purchase the car for the badge, not for the performance. My former boss (who claimed to be an enthusuast) bought a z3 and I always debated with him that it was not really an enthusiast's car (well its a roadster, but pales in comparison to its competition from a performance/handling perspective). In the end he admitted he bought it because it was a BMW. The lack of a badge and edgy (and perhaps "odd") styling may not sit well with this crowd. However, a portion of this crowd do buy sports sedans for that reason and could switch over.
The weight I mention is with 4 adult passengers (i.e. 200 lbs) plus approximate 3000 lb. curb weight. I used that to emphasize the point that putting so much emphasis on getting 4 adults into the car will completely change the nature of the car.
I think you are overemphasizing the difference between the renesis and the s2000's engine. I wouldn't necessarily say the renesis (or any rotary) is superior to the vtec/i-vtec engines because it has an inherent ability to rev higher. My point was that the shape of the rx8's torque and power curves were very similar to the rsx-s's (i-vtec) which is a very successful design (used in several models with varying forms). I posted about this a fewm months ago.
I beleive mazda's roots are small, lightweight cars. My concern is that this car will stray too far from those roots.
In regards to my looking for an all-out sports car, that is not the case. In my opinion an all-out, no compromise sports car is a 2 seat, trunk design (especially if designed to be as small as possible ala miata dimensions). It is difficult for me to justify that for the reasons i suggest i my post, though I could probobly do it for a couple of years (its actually my parent's dog, I probobly won't get one until a couple of years). I prefer a celica/rsx or a 1st-2nd generation design. These cars have some practical aspects (enough for me!).
BTW..my bigger concern is with handling and nimbleness as opposed to speed.
I think a large portion of the target market is from the sports sedan crowd, but this car is intending to pull other target markets too (i.e. sports car, sporty coupe and some family sedan). In regards to the sports sedan market, especially BMW, a lot of the buyers purchase the car for the badge, not for the performance. My former boss (who claimed to be an enthusuast) bought a z3 and I always debated with him that it was not really an enthusiast's car (well its a roadster, but pales in comparison to its competition from a performance/handling perspective). In the end he admitted he bought it because it was a BMW. The lack of a badge and edgy (and perhaps "odd") styling may not sit well with this crowd. However, a portion of this crowd do buy sports sedans for that reason and could switch over.
The weight I mention is with 4 adult passengers (i.e. 200 lbs) plus approximate 3000 lb. curb weight. I used that to emphasize the point that putting so much emphasis on getting 4 adults into the car will completely change the nature of the car.
I think you are overemphasizing the difference between the renesis and the s2000's engine. I wouldn't necessarily say the renesis (or any rotary) is superior to the vtec/i-vtec engines because it has an inherent ability to rev higher. My point was that the shape of the rx8's torque and power curves were very similar to the rsx-s's (i-vtec) which is a very successful design (used in several models with varying forms). I posted about this a fewm months ago.
I beleive mazda's roots are small, lightweight cars. My concern is that this car will stray too far from those roots.
In regards to my looking for an all-out sports car, that is not the case. In my opinion an all-out, no compromise sports car is a 2 seat, trunk design (especially if designed to be as small as possible ala miata dimensions). It is difficult for me to justify that for the reasons i suggest i my post, though I could probobly do it for a couple of years (its actually my parent's dog, I probobly won't get one until a couple of years). I prefer a celica/rsx or a 1st-2nd generation design. These cars have some practical aspects (enough for me!).
BTW..my bigger concern is with handling and nimbleness as opposed to speed.
12-07-2002 | 06:18 PM
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The weight I mention is with 4 adult passengers (i.e. 200 lbs) plus approximate 3000 lb. curb weight. I used that to emphasize the point that putting so much emphasis on getting 4 adults into the car will completely change the nature of the car.
BTW..my bigger concern is with handling and nimbleness as opposed to speed.
12-07-2002 | 09:22 PM
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From: Aurora, CO
Originally posted by zoom44
well, motor trend just put the weight at 2933. i weigh about 135 and my wife about 125. very few of our freinds who i can expect to take for a ride in this car are 200lbs. so for me your 800lbs is alittle exagerated. but i hope with those folks in the car i can show off the performance, without the car seeming weak. i doubt i will be disapointed.
well, motor trend just put the weight at 2933. i weigh about 135 and my wife about 125. very few of our freinds who i can expect to take for a ride in this car are 200lbs. so for me your 800lbs is alittle exagerated. but i hope with those folks in the car i can show off the performance, without the car seeming weak. i doubt i will be disapointed.
Another source has put the car at 2860 lbs. I am aware of the different weight estimates and only used the 4 x 200 lbs people because that is what the thread originator (revhappy) mentioned (800/4=200).
One of the articles/reviews on the rx-8 released the speed at redline for the first 3 gears and I mentioned in that I was very happy with the gearing. It was geared more aggressively than even I imagined and definitely takes into account the fact that the car was made to fit 4 full size adults. Nevertheless, the acceleration will not be quite sporty if the weight with passengers is 3700 lbs.
mazda has gone to great lengths to make sure that noone will be disapointed with the handling, nimbleness and "tossability" of this car. you are going to be pleasantly surprised! [/B]
Brian
Last edited by Buger; 12-07-2002 at 09:43 PM.
12-07-2002 | 09:39 PM
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With all the magazine estimates of the weight, based on pure speculation,..I think someone at mazda may have given a 1300-1400 KG figure. The article Buger mentions is equivalent to 1300 KG exactly, the road and track article equals exactly 1350 KG and car and driver I think was somewhere over 3000 lbs (but less than 1400KG). I am hoping for a weight near 2900 lbs..as that will make its power-weight ratio around the same as the S2000.
To be a good "sports car (that happens to be able to seat 4 people)", I believe its performance must be competitive with the 350Z and the S2000. I don't think it will have the best acceleration (350Z) or best handling (S2K), but if it can come in second in those two categories it can be the well balanced "sports car (that happens to seat four people)." I have no doubt it will handle better than the 350Z:D
To be a good "sports car (that happens to be able to seat 4 people)", I believe its performance must be competitive with the 350Z and the S2000. I don't think it will have the best acceleration (350Z) or best handling (S2K), but if it can come in second in those two categories it can be the well balanced "sports car (that happens to seat four people)." I have no doubt it will handle better than the 350Z:D
12-08-2002 | 04:08 AM
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From: Greater Vancouver Area, BC
i'd not worry about this car feeling "too big" for you... it's not a Miata, but the dimensions are nearly identical to that of an NSX (IIRC), it's just taller...
it obviously wouldn't feel very sporty with four big people in it, but then again, what the hell does??? i wouldn't worry about it... this car'll have a stronger engine than my Echo, and it does just fine when PACKED TO THE GILLS (i'm talkin' like more than 1000lb payload here boys... by which i mean the big guys in my family and a few hundred pounds of stuff)... by no means is it fast, or even tolerable off the line, and fuel economy is obviously terrible, but it automatically motivates us from one place to another which is exactly what it's suppost to do... and when i'm in the car by myself with a quarter tank of gas, i can carve it up a teensy little bit...
it obviously wouldn't feel very sporty with four big people in it, but then again, what the hell does??? i wouldn't worry about it... this car'll have a stronger engine than my Echo, and it does just fine when PACKED TO THE GILLS (i'm talkin' like more than 1000lb payload here boys... by which i mean the big guys in my family and a few hundred pounds of stuff)... by no means is it fast, or even tolerable off the line, and fuel economy is obviously terrible, but it automatically motivates us from one place to another which is exactly what it's suppost to do... and when i'm in the car by myself with a quarter tank of gas, i can carve it up a teensy little bit...
12-22-2002 | 07:44 PM
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If you're a purist enthsiast then the RX-8 is not for for you. Neither is the 350Z or any other Z. The RX-8 is for people who want a more practicle, yet performance oriented car. None the less, I'd bet money that it can take the 350Z on a road course.
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