MrJynx

I downshift and rev match every stop I make. I consider coasting to the light in neutral a risk because in the event someone is going to hit you from behind the amount of time it will take for you to shift into gear, get it into gear (engine will have to jump up to match the gear for you) it may already be to late. So I make sure my car is in some type of gear at any given time.

If i'm at a stop light and there is a car or two behind then I'll put the car in neutral, or leave it in first gear with the clutch fully depressed.


MrJynx

Rotary Rasp

iTrader: (2)

You should have your foot on the brake anyway.

Raptor2k

This down-shifting thing while going to a stop is news to me. I'm in control of the car when it's in neutral. I'm not going to shift into 2nd while I'm slowing down from 5th/6th and zoom past a red light or a stop sign in case someone looks like they're going to rear-end me. But I'll try it later today anyway, I don't see the point of it other than driving aggressively for position and being a badass.

MrJynx

I'm referring to getting rear ended.. If you are not in gear and you have to make an emergency maneuver having your foot on the brake with the car in neutral isn't going to help you at all I used to coast in neutral all the time until someone nearly rear ended me and I couldn't do anything because I wasn't in gear..

Also i'm not referring to shifting from 6th to 2nd gear. I mean down shifting each gear and pushing the revs about 2k up to match the new gear i'm going into.

I read somewhere if you skip gears it's not very good for the synchos or sumtin like that..


MrJynx

G8rboy

I also downshift and rev-match at every stop, at least one gear, and often through to 2nd. I've been doing this for 20 years in every car I've owned, and was taught this by my dad who always drove MT sportscars. It's half the fun of driving a manual, especially with a great gearbox and clutch like Mazda makes... not to mention how awesome my SP2 sounds

There's definitely some big-time confusion out there about transmission "abuse" from downshifting... if you know what you're doing, your clutch will last a very long time. I pulled my last Miata's clutch at 80k miles with well over half the clutch material left on it... I only replaced it because I was already in there to replace a screechy pilot bearing. I drove that car like it was stolen, upshifting and downshifting constantly... and you'd never had known by the condition of the clutch or tranny.

And I also agree that you're in more control when you're constantly in the best gear for the situation, rather than coasting/braking in neutral (which is why I HATE driving autos). That added control may only pay off every once in a great while, but I'm happy that I've been able to avoid every near collision thrown my way.

icyur2

I'm getting confused..what exactly is "rev-match?" I asked, but no-one is clarifying this when I gave my example. Anyone describe this in "lay-man's" term?

Hyperborea

You've got it backwards. Back in the "paleolithic era" it was because the brakes were more fragile than the transmission. They didn't provide as much braking force as today's brakes and they were much more prone to fading. (front and read drums) To assist with the braking, particularly when driving "sportily", one would use the transmission to aid the brakes.

These days that isn't required except for descending long declines. So, the only people still doing engine braking are the really old folks who haven't learned how modern cars work or those who want to pretend that they are Fangio.

HeelnToe

"Blip" (quick kick) the throttle as you let the clutch out so that the engine and tranmission speeds match one another... the end result is that when you let the clutch out, there is no "lurch" as they connect. When you get it right, you can't "feel" the shift whatsoever - it's seamless.

The fun part comes when you need to brake AND blip the throttle. You only have one foot to work with, so it has to do both simultaneously. The usual method is to leave the toes/side of the foot on the brake, and pivot your heel over to the throttle. It's a helluva thing to learn how to do, but it becomes second-nature eventually, and the rewards... the sound of an 8 snaking through corners, running up and down the gears... it's hellafun

G8rboy

Yes, you "kids" have it all figured out... us old farts just can't get used to this new-fangled technology. Thank God I didn't mention that I still double-clutch on occasion while heel and toe shifting on twisty back country roads

You're confusing what is "required" with what is fun (and the best way to drive a sportscar).

G'daddy Rex

This is exactly the reason why people cannot drive today. The cars do the driving for them. Take an average person and place them in a car made in 2004 and they will be able to drive with confidence in any weather or situation.
Now place that same person in a car built in 1980 and they can't handle the truth.

Who is driving who.

All said in support of double-clutching and heel-toe. Have fun with the car. When you learn how the transmission and clutch will be able to handle it.

Oh, all you newbies quite riding the clutch...

Krankor

Well, I got my historic info from a mechanic who posted here, so you can take that up with him. I, however, don't care enough to do all the searching to find the particular posts in question. You are certainly correct that brakes were crappier in the past. My guess is that you're both correct, but referring to different eras. I used "paleolithic" to be colorful, not necessarily accurate.

bd32322

Dealer charged me 250 bucks for front brake job (pads). Hell .. So I took a auto-repair class to change brakes on my own and down-shifted my automatic Honda Accord all the time. My first brake job was at 30k miles (aggressive driving from my bro) and my second brake job was at 110k miles.

Down-shifting is prolly very important for manual transmissions. To be always in gear and have power on the wheels is good to escape situations. And it is cool and challenging to heel and toe

Bodi

Raptor2k

I tried it out today. Cruising in 6th on a 45, red light up ahead. I let off the gas letting the RPMS fall, shift into 3rd, they quickly bounce back up and the car jerks back, as if I slammed the brakes. Shift into 2nd, same thing. And the whole time, I don't touch the brakes until I need to completely stop. Perfect recipe to getting hit in the back. The sci-fi rotary tone sounds cool though. After that, I tried letting off the clutch slowly so I don't get that jerk. Still, I don't touch the brakes because my foot is busy tapping the gas to rev match.

So what am I doing wrong?

cjkim

you're not rev-matching

Raptor2k

...

and the brake lights? I want them on when I slow down.

KuzuRyuuSen

when you shift your gear from say 5th gear to 3rd gear @40mph, you basically need to rev the engine to 4000rpm because i am pretty sure "at 3rd gear" rpm~=speed*100. so if you're running @40mph, you should rev it to 4k rpm, then let out the clutch, once it's fully enganged, you can floor the accelerator.

if you're going from 6th to 2nd @40 mph, i don't know exactly what rpm you need to go but it's definitely more than 4k rpm. if you want to do that just press the clutch down, rev your engine a bit higher, let out the clutch a bit slowly, let it match by itself, let out the clucth fully, then you can do whatever you want. just make sure you don't step on the clucth before flooring the accelerator.

cjkim

then use the brakes

Rupes

prob giving it too much or no gas. Try it at a lower rpm (ie shift from 4th gear to third at like 2k rpm), when you can get that down, then try the bigger rpm range. All your looking to do is give it a little tiny "blip" (as in just touch the gas, get off the gas, then shift but all at roughly the same time don't let the rpms drop to idle speed) before downshifting.

DarkBrew

Some people think down shifting is what your coat suffers from after going through the wash!

I like to practice heal and toe braking, just for fun.

MrJynx

If your approaching a stop light I think it's pretty much understood you'll be stopping eventually

Also you shouldn't drop from 6th to 3rd, you should go from 6 -> 5, 5-> 4, etc. Remember, when downshifting it's either the engine that is going to bring the revs up (i think the synchros) or you give it a little gas to bring the revs up, let off the clutch and now your in gear with no "bog down". It'll take a little practice to get it right and you'll probably over-rev giving the car that lurching forward feeling, but after about 5000km you'll do it perfectly.

Also i'm not an old man and I rev match/downshift all the time. Requires a bit more work, but to me I feel more connected with the car.

Regardless everyone has their style of driving so if you don't want to downshift, coast to the light in neutral it's up to you..

Now heel -n - toe I can not do.. that's my mission for next summer


MrJynx

DarkBrew

Heal and toe is too easy on the '8 'cus the pedals are so close together and the gas and brake are at the same level. All you have to do is put the ball of your foot on the brake and blip the throttle with the side of your foot as you downshift. Give it a try...

Raptor2k

Rev-matching is the easy part, but then I guess I have to immediately brake, then down-shift and rev-match again, brake, etc, I'll try it again

cjkim

Heel and toe. You'd be braking while downshifting at the same time, not one or the other.

visitor

i think people should practice heal toe away from traffic or on the track.

Imidazole

To all you people that say downshifting is bad, etc, etc... My philosophy for my cars have always been this - "I pay good money for my car, so I get to use it as I want."