Ole Spiff

Interesting thread. I've owned and used cars with manual transmissions since 1970 and I've always downshifted only if I'm going to continue rolling; if I know I'm coming to a stop I put it in neutral and use the brakes. It's been my philosophy that brake pads were cheaper and easier to replace than clutches; transmissions I was never worried about since I don't abuse mine.

Raptor2k

Heel goes on the brake pedal while my toes tap the gas during the downshift, correct?

QBallz

^ other way around, toes on brake, heel on gas.

Crazy Rx-8 Driver

Downshifting is easy and this is what I learned from our cars and I thought I would share it with you all.

what I learned from our cars in rev-matching, I noticed that in 3rd gear. our MPH and RPM's are 1 to 1 ratio. meaning if i am going 30MPH in 3rd gear, our rpms are at 3K. in 2nd gear if i am going 30mph, our rpms will be at around 4K. 4th gear at 30mph, our rpms will be arond 2k.

same with any speeds. so I use this as a simple reminder on where and how much to blip the gas to rev match. experiment/ try this method out. you'll be suprised at how easy it is to down shift.

even going 60mph at 6th gear and you want to rev-match in third. rev it up to 6K and it will be the most smooth down-shift ever.

Raptor2k

Tried that, my knee gets caught in the steering wheel

cjkim

just watch some of the professional drivers on the track, the ones with cameras showing the pedals.
like this...
http://www.youtube.com/w/F50-Time-At...est%20motoring

Krankor

That was damn helpful. Thanks!

HeelnToe

Mine does too, so I raised the wheel. Works fine now.

You can also sorta roll your foot over... kinda like you're doing a karate kick, so the right edge of your foot catches the throttle rather than the bottom of your heel. It's actually quicker and requires less movement than pivoting your entire heel onto the pedal.

Also, when I'm wearing dress shoes with a heel, I end up lifting my leg more and catching the steering wheel... so I just roll my foot in this case.

With something flat-bottomed like sneakers, I can put the bottom of my heel on it without a problem.

One of the cooler tidbits about the 8 is the design of the brake pedal itself. Take a peek at it... the grooves in the outer corner are intentionally curved to make pivoting your foot on the pedal easier. I mean geez, these guys really did sweat the details. They WANT you to shift this way, it's designed for it.

Hyperborea

Thanks. Nobody mistakes me for being a "kid" anymore being as I'm 40-something. It gives you the nice feeling that being carded when buying booze in your 30's gives (though it was something you hated in your 20's).

Sure heel and toe shifting on twisty back roads is fine and can be fun but doing it as the "normal" thing and engine braking coming in to a stoplight is just asking for troubles. You're not giving any visual notice to the drivers behind you that using the brakes does. You're also putting more stress on the driveline and that is a lot more expensive to maintain than the braking system. A set of good pads is under a $100 bucks and no more than hour to replace. A clutch is hundreds of dollars and many more hours to replace (in my last car closer to $1000 and a whole weekend as you had to drop the transaxle - no idea what the RX-8 involves yet). Which do you want to do? I don't have a full pit crew to do my car maintenance for me so I try to avoid the unnecessary wear and tear.

All the griping about how it's as shame that modern cars, the RX-8 included, have good brakes and that a driver can't use their "skill" makes me wonder why those people bought the RX-8. Why not a Morgan or a Caterham? Oh wait, those have modern brakes too. Perhaps they want something that you needed to manually crank to start?

HeelnToe

I am using the brakes when I heelntoe downshift at stoplights. Drivers behind me see brake lights. Heelntoe doesn't really use engine braking, it uses brakes to slow down... but it ensures that you're always in the proper gear for your speed.

I can only think of two alternatives:

1) Put in in neutral (or hold in the clutch) as you slow down with the brakes. This feels dangerous and vulnerable to me. I like to have control. If you suddenly need to accelerate, you're in a bad spot.

2) Downshift without rev matching while slowing down. THAT is what puts stress and wear on the driveline and clutch... every time you let out the clutch, the whole car shudders while the clutch slips and grips. Yuck.

By heel and toeing at every stop light, I'm using the brakes to slow down, always in the proper gear for my speed, have acceleration available should I need it, and put next to zero stress on the clutch or driveline.

And it sounds terrific

Hyperborea

Gah, I posted quickly and made a mistake. You're right heel and toeing in would be fine. What I think was the original point early in the thread was downshifting and using engine braking to slow the car down without using the brakes. That will give no signal to drivers behind you and put wear on the driveline.

Another alternative. Leave it in gear (3rd, 4th, 5th on city streets most likely) and brake to slow down. When the revs drop low enough 1.5K to 2K then shift to neutral. The RX-8 will cutoff fuel to the engine in such a case and use the turning of the wheels to keep the engine rotating.

I'm not sure where you're going to accelerate to on city streets. Cars in front and cars to the side as you slow down for the intersection. If you're in front I suppose you could accelerate into the cross traffic in the intersection. I'm not sure how that's any better than getting tapped on bumper.

jayk

Did you actually "cook" the brakes in 22k miles or just wear them down until they needed to be replaced?

agoodcave

Ok, lets turn this around. Why should I engine brake, other than it sounds cool. It doesn't shorten my stopping distance, I can't dive deeper into a curve. I agree, downshift halfway through to accelerate at the exit, but then I'm not engine braking.

Mike

jayk

Shouldn't it be downshift before entering the corner to accelerate at the apex? Even off the track it still makes sense, you don't want to be downshifting and potentially upsetting the car mid-corner.

agoodcave

Jayk,
Yes, I actually put it in the gear as I enter, but never lift off the clutch for braking purposes - acceleration. I also try to drift it a little. I'm just trying to understand why downshift approaching a stop sign.

I must say, this has been a good exchange by everyone - no flames, or attacks.

Mike

Astral

When I brake harder, I row through the gears, but leave the clutch disengaged from the transmission, because I don't have the "heel 'n' toe" skillz yet and so I am not cool enough to downshift and actually be engaged in gear while braking.

Eventually I will learn how to, and that will give me more control and confidence of being in gear as much as possible.

When I brake softer, I typically let off the brakes for a second, downshift with rev-matching, then get back on the brakes.

I almost never just throw the car into neutral while slowing down, like I see so many other manual drivers do. Worst case, I stay in whatever gear (3rd or 4th) as I brake, and let it gea real low. But that's rare--typically, I push in the clutch and start rowing down the gears, to always at least be ready to engage the cluch w/o having to shift it into the right gear first.

And of course, I NEVER brake with the clutch (by non-revmatching and having the clutch friction and the revs going back up slow down the car). That's terrible!

jayk

I agree, on the straight line downshifting, it serves little purpose other than the fun factor. I usually leave it in gear when I know I'm stopping at a stop sign or light, and sometimes downshift if I think there is a chance I'm going to punch it if the light changes, buts thats about it.

QBallz

A hell toe downshift is still hard on your Transmission Syncros, unless your also double clutching. Just an FYI.

bd32322

Just for some clarification:

Double Clutching:
When downshifting, you clutch and put car into neutral, blip throttle to match revs to the gear you are going to for that speed and then put the car into the lower gear.

Heel and toe shifting:
While slowing down, you engage clutch and keep it engaged, then rev match and shift into lower gear and let clutch out.

These two methods seem to be the same. However, heel and toe has slightly greater wear and tear on the transmission, because of the constant mesh transmission we use. In this kind of transmission when the input shaft is turning all the transmission gears are also turning. So in double clutching, when you are rev matching in neutral you are bringing **BOTH** the transmission and engine to the same revs and then shifting into proper gear.

In heal and toe, you are only bringing the engine to the proper revs because the clutch is engaged. The job of getting the transmission gears upto speed is for the synchros. Its not a big deal, this is prolly normal wear and tear.

An example of how the gears always mesh together is the fact that on a cold day, when you start your 8, and press the clutch the car does not move. Shift into neutral and release clutch, the car will move. Search the forums and you will find a nice technical explanation.

As for why would you downshift when slowing down in normal driving - personal choice. I always like to be in the proper gear for the speed until I really slow down. Also saves money on brakes - doesnt cause any appreciable transmission wear if you do it smoothly (which I dont for now - some tire squeals are proof, but I am learning).

Also Mazda manual recommends downshifting and not standing on the brakes for long - otherwise in city driving you could have brake fade ?? (I dont know - someone correct me).

- Bodi

bd32322

A nice way of learning heel and toe is to practice double clutching at slow speeds and rev match in peace. Once you got that down try heel and toe. I think the car is ideal for either technique. The accelerator and brake are nicely positioned (I can hit the throttle with the edge of my right foot). Secondly, I like the feel of the clutch (nice and bouncy ) .. easy to kick, neutral, kick again and change gear.

In fact I tried rev matching on my automatic accord When I would manually select a lower gear - it would pause for a little bit and if I timed it right it would match it nicely. But this was a very hit miss affair. I prolly got it right 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time the transmission did a better job than my 10%.

- Bodi

BunnyGirl

As explained to me by my friend who taught me how to drive a stick several years ago, as taught to him by his dad, and also taught to me by my mother, my driving school, my dad, step-dad, brother, plus my second job, is when you see that you need to slow down, take your foot off the gas, push in the clutch all the way, and this slows down the car, and when necessary push the brakes in to stop all the way. Then when stopped, put it into first. Or, if slowing down with the clutch pushed in and seeing that you don't have to come to a stop (red light turned green again), downshift to most likely second as that is most commonly where you would be to start picking up speed again, never coasting in neutral as your car is basically dead (meaning no control or anything). My driving school took me into a "urban highway" type area where you had traffic lights every major intersection and generally ended up having to stop and start again, maximum speed 35 and generally in third gear with that car. Took me there specifically just for that purpose to practice this technique.

QBallz

You can double clutch on upshifts too, this is helpful when you say go from 2nd to 6th.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

*takes notes* thanks for these daily driving tips, will definitely become useful in stop-n-go traffic

<--- self taught manual driver, did most of my 'learning' on the track

Barry Gross

I had no idea I would learn so much when I started this thread. You guys really have a lot of experience and knowledge...and I really appreciate your sharing!!!!!!!!!!

Raptor2k

Do you need to? I often accelerate in 2nd, clutch in, gear into 6 and let the clutch out and go slow on the gas.