A few questions about oft-reported problems
02-25-2004, 09:36 PM
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My concern is not personal - and from the cars you can see I own - the remote possibility of flooding will not stop me from enjoying my RXs for years to come.
My concern is that for the RX8 to enjoy many more years of sales and support this issue must be laid to rest.
Mazda USA has once withdrawn RXs from the US market - I do NOT want a similar thing being done once all the rotorheads in the country has bought in. Even if all the current rotorheads in the country buy two RX8 - the future of the RX-8 and any future Rxs is dependent on the recruiting of many other to the Rotary fold.
The American new car-buyer is conservative and will run for cover if this issue is not clearly and definitive resolved by Mazda USA.
Just my 2 cents
John
My concern is that for the RX8 to enjoy many more years of sales and support this issue must be laid to rest.
Mazda USA has once withdrawn RXs from the US market - I do NOT want a similar thing being done once all the rotorheads in the country has bought in. Even if all the current rotorheads in the country buy two RX8 - the future of the RX-8 and any future Rxs is dependent on the recruiting of many other to the Rotary fold.
The American new car-buyer is conservative and will run for cover if this issue is not clearly and definitive resolved by Mazda USA.
Just my 2 cents
John
02-25-2004, 09:41 PM
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Goh Mifune
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After doing a little research, I suppose I'll stop complaining about those who argue the flooding problem is a "non-issue." That particular phrase really bugs me because I use the word "issue" very deliberately, this way:
ISSUE:
"A point or matter of discussion, debate, or dispute. . . "
"A misgiving, objection, or complaint . . ."
"A culminating point leading to a decision. . ."
However, some are reasonably using it less rigidly:
"Informal. A personal problem . . . The teacher discussed the child's issues with his parents. "
[The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.]
Still, for those who care about it, it would seem that it remains an "issue," -- even under the second definition because a car that might flood is "a personal problem." I was exceptionally careful with my car and was still without it it for six days days when my wife moved it and forgot my warning not to shut it down cold. Six days was a long time... a big "personal problem."
Perhaps we can agree to use a better word "limitation." Everything has limitations. This is one of the RX-8s. When you find a limitation you can either live with it or not... Personally, I have no problem with whatever choice people make about the flooding limitation -- as long as Mazda explains it clearly, it seems perfectly fair to ask that prospective buyers commit to making the behavioral changes needed to reduce the chances of flooding and then live with the remaining risk -- or find another vehicle. The same is true with the "winter traction limitation," the "fuel economy limitation" and the "oil consumption" limitation. I point out that the remaining risk for those who buy the car are greatly lessened by Mazda's generous warranty policy... they'll tow you and fix it for free for four years or 50,000 miles... over and over and over again, and it is true that, so far, very few people have needed more than one tow.
If you bought the car not understanding that the car might flood and are upset with the current state of affairs talk to a lawyer... It's possible one might be able to force a buyback settlement -- but I simply can't believe anyone could honestly flood the car enough to be entitled to a Lemon-Law return. That's just silly. In Illinois, its FOUR repairs and the loss of use of the car for 30 BUSINESS DAYS. Maybe your State is more generous to consumers, but if you flood the car deliberately, its hardly a "Lemon." Additionally, if you've been posting on this forum for a while, you've had fair warning. Your right to be "outraged" drops proportionally with the passage of time. Speak now or...
Finally: Elara makes a good point. People should post into open threads whenever possible (and I add that the topics should be clear and explain the subject -- that's just good manners). I'm really happy to see that the threads here were merged and not summarily closed because the topic is tiring some readers. I'm all for people moving on if they want to... as for me, I'm going to keep reading and posting in "flooding" threads ... so far, this has been a great forum and like it or not, the flooding limitation is one that people like me want to talk about.
EDIT: John: Well said!
ISSUE:
"A point or matter of discussion, debate, or dispute. . . "
"A misgiving, objection, or complaint . . ."
"A culminating point leading to a decision. . ."
However, some are reasonably using it less rigidly:
"Informal. A personal problem . . . The teacher discussed the child's issues with his parents. "
[The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.]
Still, for those who care about it, it would seem that it remains an "issue," -- even under the second definition because a car that might flood is "a personal problem." I was exceptionally careful with my car and was still without it it for six days days when my wife moved it and forgot my warning not to shut it down cold. Six days was a long time... a big "personal problem."
Perhaps we can agree to use a better word "limitation." Everything has limitations. This is one of the RX-8s. When you find a limitation you can either live with it or not... Personally, I have no problem with whatever choice people make about the flooding limitation -- as long as Mazda explains it clearly, it seems perfectly fair to ask that prospective buyers commit to making the behavioral changes needed to reduce the chances of flooding and then live with the remaining risk -- or find another vehicle. The same is true with the "winter traction limitation," the "fuel economy limitation" and the "oil consumption" limitation. I point out that the remaining risk for those who buy the car are greatly lessened by Mazda's generous warranty policy... they'll tow you and fix it for free for four years or 50,000 miles... over and over and over again, and it is true that, so far, very few people have needed more than one tow.
If you bought the car not understanding that the car might flood and are upset with the current state of affairs talk to a lawyer... It's possible one might be able to force a buyback settlement -- but I simply can't believe anyone could honestly flood the car enough to be entitled to a Lemon-Law return. That's just silly. In Illinois, its FOUR repairs and the loss of use of the car for 30 BUSINESS DAYS. Maybe your State is more generous to consumers, but if you flood the car deliberately, its hardly a "Lemon." Additionally, if you've been posting on this forum for a while, you've had fair warning. Your right to be "outraged" drops proportionally with the passage of time. Speak now or...
Finally: Elara makes a good point. People should post into open threads whenever possible (and I add that the topics should be clear and explain the subject -- that's just good manners). I'm really happy to see that the threads here were merged and not summarily closed because the topic is tiring some readers. I'm all for people moving on if they want to... as for me, I'm going to keep reading and posting in "flooding" threads ... so far, this has been a great forum and like it or not, the flooding limitation is one that people like me want to talk about.
EDIT: John: Well said!
Last edited by MEGAREDS; 02-25-2004 at 09:45 PM.
02-25-2004, 09:48 PM
#78
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Originally posted by MEGAREDS
Finally: Elara makes a good point. People should post into open threads whenever possible (and I add that the topics should be clear and explain the subject -- that's just good manners). I'm really happy to see that the threads here were merged and not summarily closed because the topic is tiring some readers. I'm all for people moving on if they want to... as for me, I'm going to keep reading and posting in "flooding" threads ... so far, this has been a great forum and like it or not, the flooding limitation is one that people like me want to talk about.
Finally: Elara makes a good point. People should post into open threads whenever possible (and I add that the topics should be clear and explain the subject -- that's just good manners). I'm really happy to see that the threads here were merged and not summarily closed because the topic is tiring some readers. I'm all for people moving on if they want to... as for me, I'm going to keep reading and posting in "flooding" threads ... so far, this has been a great forum and like it or not, the flooding limitation is one that people like me want to talk about.
So there you go - see Megareds, we kinda actually agree about it I think, we just have issues/limitations with our word definition compatibility.
Cheers,
Simon.
02-25-2004, 09:50 PM
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MEGAREDS:
Glad you're still taken with the RX8 - as I am. It has re-wetted my long interest in Rotary cars - dating back to 1985. I'm even dreaming of a RX-7 convertible - perhaps even a hardtop convertible like my SLK320 or a targa top perhaps. THEN my wife will definitively be burying me at the wheel of the RX8 pointing downwards.
All 'limitations' considered it's one hell of a car - a true revolution IMHO.
John
Glad you're still taken with the RX8 - as I am. It has re-wetted my long interest in Rotary cars - dating back to 1985. I'm even dreaming of a RX-7 convertible - perhaps even a hardtop convertible like my SLK320 or a targa top perhaps. THEN my wife will definitively be burying me at the wheel of the RX8 pointing downwards.
All 'limitations' considered it's one hell of a car - a true revolution IMHO.
John
02-25-2004, 11:39 PM
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I'm going to hijack my own thread here...
...just to say that I finally drove the RX-8 today. I want to get my impressions down while I remember them.
First off, let me begin by saying I specifically asked the salesman about the flooding "issue." He seemed dimly aware of it, but as the dealership had sold 17 of the cars since they came out, they had not encountered the problem - bottom line: I only got a vague acknowledgement of any problem. He did say that it's recommended in the manual that one warm the engine properly before either spirited driving or shut down. He then - and this is significant - started a cold car, shut it right now, started it again (no problems), let it run for a minute, shut it down for 30 seconds, and then started it again. At no time did the engine hesitate to turn over. And the temperature here in Vancouver this afternoon was about 49 degrees Fahrenheit with 70% humidity and drizzling rain.
Impressions from my test drive:
Car feels extremely solid and "planted" to the road. As oft-reported, handling seems precise and reassuring. I didn't want to push too hard because the roads were a little slick and the traffic was heavy, but suffice to say it goes where you point it like it's on rails.
Engine power is not going to compete with a V8 - don't expect a rocketship ride. That said, power is certainly adequate for this class of car, and rpms come on with a seamlessness that seems to build about 1.5X faster than a conventional piston engine. Translation: getting the revs up (a la VTEC engines) seems to be the best way to extract the most from the engine's power band; you need to work this baby, which is part of the design...and part of the fun.
Though the RX-8 did not have stump-pulling torque, we drove up the windy Capilano roads towards Grouse Mountain in third gear at 2000 rpms, and the car executed the climb without complaint. I never felt like I HAD to downshift. Bottom line, torque may be low, but it's quite useable across the powerband. And what accleration this car gives up to SOME vehicles (it's certainly not a SLOW car) at the stoplight, it would more than make up for in the S-bends.
Many have talked about how the engine has such a unique sound. Personally, though I listened carefully to the engine's audio note, I didn't find it THAT different than a conventional engine. It's a little more turbine-like, to be sure, and definitely smoother. No "lumpy-cam" V8 sound, that's for certain! It's a pleasing sound, actually, and when inside the car, the engine is relatively quiet.
Steering is wonderful. One of the most precise, solid steering feels I have experienced in any car at any price. Assist is electric, not hydraulic, for those who didn't know - that means no power steering fluid to ever change! Wheel is comfortable too.
M6 shift action is smooth and precise - again, about the shortest throw shifter I've ever experienced.
This car offers an impressive array of creature comforts for a sports car, much like Toyota did with the '87-'90 Supras - and I like that a lot. Materials and finish, while not Audi-level, are above average, and everything works organically. I absolutely LOVE the white and red (and blue, if you like) electroluminescent guages. Digital speedo didn't bother me at all. [Question: Can you switch the speedo between kilometers and miles? The sales guy said "no.") The NAV screen is high, up on the dash and close to the windshield, which means you don't have to change your line of sight or focus as abruptly as you do with lower console mounted NAVs. I'd bet that once you got the feel of the center console NAV controls' position, you could probably learn to operate them without glancing down.
Downsides? A few:
Don't be fooled, the back seats are for short hops only (or children). While head and shoulder room is adequate, my knees were pushing against the back of the front seat (and I'm only 5'11").
When you shut the rear doors, they don't sound as precise or solid as the front doors.
The position of the forward cup holder is awkward, right back about where your elbow is while shifting. I can picture one constantly slamming their elbow into the top of their latte during 1st to 2nd gear changes.
Accessories like the aero pieces are very, very expensive - $400 to $800 CDN per each set. The entire aero kit (air dam, front side, rear side, rear wheel, spoiler) is probably going to set one back about $3500 CDN. Also, the chrome wheels will set you back an additional $3600 CDN, which is outrageous! By the time you add in all the extras, the car is upwards of $50,000 CDN!
Horrific fuel economy - discussed here ad infinitum, I'm sure.
The potential flooding problem.
_________________________________
I learned a few things I didn't know, and hadn't seen on these forums. First off is that Mazda does indeed (at least in Canada) offer roadside assist across North America as part of the 3-year warranty. You can also extend that warranty up to six years. A good idea, especially if you like to go on road trips.
Also, did you guys know that (again, at least in Canada), the RX-8 uses run-flat tire technology - just like the C5 and C6 Corvettes - with a tire-monitor display on the dash? So a spare isn't really necessary. However, to continue the privilege, expect to pay $400 (again, CDN) per tire every three to four years, which is very expensive.
Anyway, a nice car which is probably targeted towards a niche market looking for exclusivity and something a little different to drive. Would I buy one? Maybe. The car is certainly worth of consideration. Assuming the flooding controversy is addressed and rectified by Mazda, and one can live with reduced fuel economy, and doesn't mind the price of entry (which quickly climbs when you start to option the car out), it's a truly rewarding ride.
Robert
First off, let me begin by saying I specifically asked the salesman about the flooding "issue." He seemed dimly aware of it, but as the dealership had sold 17 of the cars since they came out, they had not encountered the problem - bottom line: I only got a vague acknowledgement of any problem. He did say that it's recommended in the manual that one warm the engine properly before either spirited driving or shut down. He then - and this is significant - started a cold car, shut it right now, started it again (no problems), let it run for a minute, shut it down for 30 seconds, and then started it again. At no time did the engine hesitate to turn over. And the temperature here in Vancouver this afternoon was about 49 degrees Fahrenheit with 70% humidity and drizzling rain.
Impressions from my test drive:
Car feels extremely solid and "planted" to the road. As oft-reported, handling seems precise and reassuring. I didn't want to push too hard because the roads were a little slick and the traffic was heavy, but suffice to say it goes where you point it like it's on rails.
Engine power is not going to compete with a V8 - don't expect a rocketship ride. That said, power is certainly adequate for this class of car, and rpms come on with a seamlessness that seems to build about 1.5X faster than a conventional piston engine. Translation: getting the revs up (a la VTEC engines) seems to be the best way to extract the most from the engine's power band; you need to work this baby, which is part of the design...and part of the fun.
Though the RX-8 did not have stump-pulling torque, we drove up the windy Capilano roads towards Grouse Mountain in third gear at 2000 rpms, and the car executed the climb without complaint. I never felt like I HAD to downshift. Bottom line, torque may be low, but it's quite useable across the powerband. And what accleration this car gives up to SOME vehicles (it's certainly not a SLOW car) at the stoplight, it would more than make up for in the S-bends.
Many have talked about how the engine has such a unique sound. Personally, though I listened carefully to the engine's audio note, I didn't find it THAT different than a conventional engine. It's a little more turbine-like, to be sure, and definitely smoother. No "lumpy-cam" V8 sound, that's for certain! It's a pleasing sound, actually, and when inside the car, the engine is relatively quiet.
Steering is wonderful. One of the most precise, solid steering feels I have experienced in any car at any price. Assist is electric, not hydraulic, for those who didn't know - that means no power steering fluid to ever change! Wheel is comfortable too.
M6 shift action is smooth and precise - again, about the shortest throw shifter I've ever experienced.
This car offers an impressive array of creature comforts for a sports car, much like Toyota did with the '87-'90 Supras - and I like that a lot. Materials and finish, while not Audi-level, are above average, and everything works organically. I absolutely LOVE the white and red (and blue, if you like) electroluminescent guages. Digital speedo didn't bother me at all. [Question: Can you switch the speedo between kilometers and miles? The sales guy said "no.") The NAV screen is high, up on the dash and close to the windshield, which means you don't have to change your line of sight or focus as abruptly as you do with lower console mounted NAVs. I'd bet that once you got the feel of the center console NAV controls' position, you could probably learn to operate them without glancing down.
Downsides? A few:
Don't be fooled, the back seats are for short hops only (or children). While head and shoulder room is adequate, my knees were pushing against the back of the front seat (and I'm only 5'11").
When you shut the rear doors, they don't sound as precise or solid as the front doors.
The position of the forward cup holder is awkward, right back about where your elbow is while shifting. I can picture one constantly slamming their elbow into the top of their latte during 1st to 2nd gear changes.
Accessories like the aero pieces are very, very expensive - $400 to $800 CDN per each set. The entire aero kit (air dam, front side, rear side, rear wheel, spoiler) is probably going to set one back about $3500 CDN. Also, the chrome wheels will set you back an additional $3600 CDN, which is outrageous! By the time you add in all the extras, the car is upwards of $50,000 CDN!
Horrific fuel economy - discussed here ad infinitum, I'm sure.
The potential flooding problem.
_________________________________
I learned a few things I didn't know, and hadn't seen on these forums. First off is that Mazda does indeed (at least in Canada) offer roadside assist across North America as part of the 3-year warranty. You can also extend that warranty up to six years. A good idea, especially if you like to go on road trips.
Also, did you guys know that (again, at least in Canada), the RX-8 uses run-flat tire technology - just like the C5 and C6 Corvettes - with a tire-monitor display on the dash? So a spare isn't really necessary. However, to continue the privilege, expect to pay $400 (again, CDN) per tire every three to four years, which is very expensive.
Anyway, a nice car which is probably targeted towards a niche market looking for exclusivity and something a little different to drive. Would I buy one? Maybe. The car is certainly worth of consideration. Assuming the flooding controversy is addressed and rectified by Mazda, and one can live with reduced fuel economy, and doesn't mind the price of entry (which quickly climbs when you start to option the car out), it's a truly rewarding ride.
Robert
Last edited by Robert; 02-26-2004 at 12:03 AM.
02-25-2004, 11:47 PM
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Re: I'm going to hijack my own thread here...
Originally posted by Robert
...Also, did you guys know that (again, at least in Canada), the RX-8 uses run-flat tire technology - just like the C5 and C6 Corvettes - with a tire-monitor display on the dash? So a spare isn't really necessary. However, to continue the priviledge, expect to pay $400 (again, CDN) per tire after three to four years, which is very expensive.
Anyway, nice car which is probably targeted towards a niche market looking for exclusivity and something a little different to drive. Would I buy one? Maybe. The car is certainly worth of consideration. Assuming the flooding controversy is addressed by Mazda (and rectified), and one can live with reduced fuel economy, and doesn't mind the price of entry (which quickly climbs when you start to option the car out), it's a truly rewarding ride.
Robert
...Also, did you guys know that (again, at least in Canada), the RX-8 uses run-flat tire technology - just like the C5 and C6 Corvettes - with a tire-monitor display on the dash? So a spare isn't really necessary. However, to continue the priviledge, expect to pay $400 (again, CDN) per tire after three to four years, which is very expensive.
Anyway, nice car which is probably targeted towards a niche market looking for exclusivity and something a little different to drive. Would I buy one? Maybe. The car is certainly worth of consideration. Assuming the flooding controversy is addressed by Mazda (and rectified), and one can live with reduced fuel economy, and doesn't mind the price of entry (which quickly climbs when you start to option the car out), it's a truly rewarding ride.
Robert
You seem unconvinced. Buy a TL Robby!!
02-26-2004, 12:04 AM
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Robert
I live in Vancouver, Wa and I have winning blue RX-8. The car is amazing in every aspect. I sold my 2002 BMW 325i, and bought the 8. Fuel milage is 15-21 depending on driving habits. As for flooding, I only hear about it in this forum. I suspect it only happens to people in cloder climate. In our region (40f-90f) it is not cold enough to probably flood the car, as the engine warms up fast. As for the tires I absloutly love them. I have seen so many complaints, but honestly they are great tires for dry, and wet. I had SO3 on my BMW, and while they were great they tend to follow grooves bad. These tires suffer a little in colder temperatures (below 40F) which does not happen here very often. They stick like glue on dry and wet pavement as long as temperature is warm enough. They are worthless on snow. They do not follow grooves, and have an excellent ride, and are amazing on bad roads. As for the trunk space, it is ok, but you also can use the back seats for more room. My only problem and concern with the RX-8 is service quality in the Mazda delearship network. I have been very disappointed with the service quality. Mazda service is geared towards the average car and average customer, and not towards $30,000 high performance car owners. Buy the 8 and do not even think twice. I can assure you will have a grin in your face for a long time.
Mark
I live in Vancouver, Wa and I have winning blue RX-8. The car is amazing in every aspect. I sold my 2002 BMW 325i, and bought the 8. Fuel milage is 15-21 depending on driving habits. As for flooding, I only hear about it in this forum. I suspect it only happens to people in cloder climate. In our region (40f-90f) it is not cold enough to probably flood the car, as the engine warms up fast. As for the tires I absloutly love them. I have seen so many complaints, but honestly they are great tires for dry, and wet. I had SO3 on my BMW, and while they were great they tend to follow grooves bad. These tires suffer a little in colder temperatures (below 40F) which does not happen here very often. They stick like glue on dry and wet pavement as long as temperature is warm enough. They are worthless on snow. They do not follow grooves, and have an excellent ride, and are amazing on bad roads. As for the trunk space, it is ok, but you also can use the back seats for more room. My only problem and concern with the RX-8 is service quality in the Mazda delearship network. I have been very disappointed with the service quality. Mazda service is geared towards the average car and average customer, and not towards $30,000 high performance car owners. Buy the 8 and do not even think twice. I can assure you will have a grin in your face for a long time.
Mark
02-26-2004, 12:10 AM
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tire-monitor display on the dash: not in Canada!!
You seem unconvinced. Buy a TL Robby!!
You seem unconvinced. Buy a TL Robby!!
You're right, I'm not convinced, but then I'm not convinced on my other two choices either: the new 2005 Mustang GT and the Acura TL. I think the RX-8's high price of admission and maintenance, along with the flooding controversy, are my only caveats. Otherwise, it's a great car overall!
But it has to be a daily driver too.
Robert
02-26-2004, 12:19 AM
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Re: I'm going to hijack my own thread here...
Originally posted by Robert
started a cold car, shut it right now, started it again (no problems), let it run for a minute, shut it down for 30 seconds, and then started it again.
started a cold car, shut it right now, started it again (no problems), let it run for a minute, shut it down for 30 seconds, and then started it again.
Steering is wonderful. One of the most precise, solid steering feels I have experienced in any car at any price.
Question: Can you switch the speedo between kilometers to miles?
Don't be fooled, the back seats are for short hops only (or children). While head and shoulder room is adequate, my knees were pushing against the back of the front seat (and I'm only 5'11").
The position of the forward cup holder is awkward,
I learned a few things I didn't know, and hadn't seen on these forums. First off is that Mazda does indeed (at least in Canada) offer roadside assist across North America as part of the 3-year warranty.
Nice review!
02-26-2004, 12:52 PM
#85
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Originally posted by Robert
Well, the salesperson was certain it had run-flat tire technology.
You're right, I'm not convinced, but then I'm not convinced on my other two choices either: the new 2005 Mustang GT and the Acura TL. I think the RX-8's high price of admission and maintenance, along with the flooding controversy, are my only caveats. Otherwise, it's a great car overall!
But it has to be a daily driver too.
Robert
Well, the salesperson was certain it had run-flat tire technology.
You're right, I'm not convinced, but then I'm not convinced on my other two choices either: the new 2005 Mustang GT and the Acura TL. I think the RX-8's high price of admission and maintenance, along with the flooding controversy, are my only caveats. Otherwise, it's a great car overall!
But it has to be a daily driver too.
Robert
02-27-2004, 08:09 AM
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Mmmm, there seems to be a lot of people who have never flooded their cars. Interesting, since it has happened to me twice in a relatively short time.
I e-mailed Mazda about my problem and they replied:
"Mazda is aware of the flooding concerns with the RX-8. I have spoken with our Product Engineers regarding your inquiry. They have advised that all dealerships have received repair procedures regarding the engine flooding. However, preventing it from happening again is still under further investigation.
The flooding concern is mainly happening in colder climates, and it's happening when the vehicle is shut off cold and left for a period of time. The Renesis rotary engine is a high performance engine, and it needs to reach a normal operating temperature. In order to do this, you would want to run the engine 3000-4000 rpm on a cold start. You also want to limit short trip driving."
So, for all of you saying this is not an issue, Mazda disagrees, which is good. Since I live in Boston and it's been darn cold for the last couple of months, this possibly explains why it has happened to me twice.
I am concerned with revving a cold engine to 3 or 4000 rpm at startup. The oil is thick and does not provide great lubrication. I have always kept revs low during warmup and have had great success with all my cars over the years.
However, I can see where Mazda might go. They may reprogram the computer to rev the engine in this range at cold start up to try to alleviate the "concern". This may work for the flooding, but I would then worry about engine longevity.
Guys, if I was the only one driving the car, I wouldn't sweat this too much. However, my distinctly non-motorhead wife will eventually get herself in trouble with this issue. Also, I sometimes let other people drive my car, mainly so they can experience how great it is. I guess I will need to leave instructions in the car on what to do if it stalls when cold, then won't start. After they see that, I'm sure they will be running right down to their Mazda dealer to buy one.
I love this car, and yes, it is way better than my old Honda Accord (although besides always starting, it does hold my mountain bike inside with the seat folded).
OK, I'm done until I hear something concrete from Mazda. When I do, I will pass it along. Oh, and by the way, just started using regualr gas. Can't tell a bit of difference in performance and it saves me 20 cents a gallon. I like that.
I e-mailed Mazda about my problem and they replied:
"Mazda is aware of the flooding concerns with the RX-8. I have spoken with our Product Engineers regarding your inquiry. They have advised that all dealerships have received repair procedures regarding the engine flooding. However, preventing it from happening again is still under further investigation.
The flooding concern is mainly happening in colder climates, and it's happening when the vehicle is shut off cold and left for a period of time. The Renesis rotary engine is a high performance engine, and it needs to reach a normal operating temperature. In order to do this, you would want to run the engine 3000-4000 rpm on a cold start. You also want to limit short trip driving."
So, for all of you saying this is not an issue, Mazda disagrees, which is good. Since I live in Boston and it's been darn cold for the last couple of months, this possibly explains why it has happened to me twice.
I am concerned with revving a cold engine to 3 or 4000 rpm at startup. The oil is thick and does not provide great lubrication. I have always kept revs low during warmup and have had great success with all my cars over the years.
However, I can see where Mazda might go. They may reprogram the computer to rev the engine in this range at cold start up to try to alleviate the "concern". This may work for the flooding, but I would then worry about engine longevity.
Guys, if I was the only one driving the car, I wouldn't sweat this too much. However, my distinctly non-motorhead wife will eventually get herself in trouble with this issue. Also, I sometimes let other people drive my car, mainly so they can experience how great it is. I guess I will need to leave instructions in the car on what to do if it stalls when cold, then won't start. After they see that, I'm sure they will be running right down to their Mazda dealer to buy one.
I love this car, and yes, it is way better than my old Honda Accord (although besides always starting, it does hold my mountain bike inside with the seat folded).
OK, I'm done until I hear something concrete from Mazda. When I do, I will pass it along. Oh, and by the way, just started using regualr gas. Can't tell a bit of difference in performance and it saves me 20 cents a gallon. I like that.
02-27-2004, 10:45 AM
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I'm considering the TL as well as the RX-8. If you want a fun, pure sports car go with the RX-8. If you want a fantastic luxury-sport cruiser go for the TL. The only complaint I have with the TL is it's FWD, RWD is o much more fun. The major complaint with the RX-8 is it has no low to mid range power. My 1990 240SX has better get up and go than the RX-8. Hell, come to think about it, I owned a 1992 Talon AWD Turbo and being bone stock it handled just about as well as the RX-8. Go with the TL and lower it, add a rear sway bar, front strut tower brace and fly like the wind.
02-27-2004, 03:49 PM
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Robert...don't care one way or the other what you buy, but you've made it a point to bring up the cost of the RX8. DOn't know about the TL's cost in your neck of the woods, but around here, they run from almost $33K to $35K. Two very different cars. I won't bore your with the differences, as you probably already know them if you're doing test drives.
Suffice to say, don't try to do the same things in a TL as you can do in an RX8 or you'll end up in the weeds.
Same for the new Mustang. I like it, but you'll give up the "finnese" of the RX8 for the "muscle" of the Mustang. Gain, don't try to drive it the same way you would the RX8 'cause it can't do the same things.
Count me among those that have had no problems with flooding, regardless of how I start, shutdown or drive the car (and I live in an area where it gets cold from November through March).
Suffice to say, don't try to do the same things in a TL as you can do in an RX8 or you'll end up in the weeds.
Same for the new Mustang. I like it, but you'll give up the "finnese" of the RX8 for the "muscle" of the Mustang. Gain, don't try to drive it the same way you would the RX8 'cause it can't do the same things.
Count me among those that have had no problems with flooding, regardless of how I start, shutdown or drive the car (and I live in an area where it gets cold from November through March).
02-27-2004, 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by aekdb918@yahoo
I'm considering the TL as well as the RX-8. If you want a fun, pure sports car go with the RX-8. If you want a fantastic luxury-sport cruiser go for the TL. The only complaint I have with the TL is it's FWD, RWD is o much more fun. The major complaint with the RX-8 is it has no low to mid range power. My 1990 240SX has better get up and go than the RX-8. Hell, come to think about it, I owned a 1992 Talon AWD Turbo and being bone stock it handled just about as well as the RX-8. Go with the TL and lower it, add a rear sway bar, front strut tower brace and fly like the wind.
I'm considering the TL as well as the RX-8. If you want a fun, pure sports car go with the RX-8. If you want a fantastic luxury-sport cruiser go for the TL. The only complaint I have with the TL is it's FWD, RWD is o much more fun. The major complaint with the RX-8 is it has no low to mid range power. My 1990 240SX has better get up and go than the RX-8. Hell, come to think about it, I owned a 1992 Talon AWD Turbo and being bone stock it handled just about as well as the RX-8. Go with the TL and lower it, add a rear sway bar, front strut tower brace and fly like the wind.
Plus the RX8 has plenty of get up and go down low, I remember that the turbo in the Talon and Eclipse had -0- pickup down low which was one of the few thigns I didn't like about it.
To compare the TL to the RX8 is comparing 2 totally different cars. I happen to love the looks of the new TL but it is a nice performing *sedan* with VERY good power which can't be compared to a sports car like the RX8.
You really need to live with the RX8 to know just how incredible it is, I absolutely LOVE my RX8 and for the record I traded in a 2003 330i with sport package & 5 speed which would run circles around the New TL and I am telling you the RX8 hands down handles better then my 330i or my 01 330Ci or for that matter.
02-27-2004, 06:29 PM
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I have had a 95 Eagle Talon TSi and a 98 Eclipse GST Convertible and neither of those cars comes close to the RX8 in the handling department. Don't get me wrong, they were good handler's but the RX8 grips and grips.
Plus the RX8 has plenty of get up and go down low, I remember that the turbo in the Talon and Eclipse had -0- pickup down low which was one of the few thigns I didn't like about it.
To compare the TL to the RX8 is comparing 2 totally different cars. I happen to love the looks of the new TL but it is a nice performing *sedan* with VERY good power which can't be compared to a sports car like the RX8.
You really need to live with the RX8 to know just how incredible it is, I absolutely LOVE my RX8 and for the record I traded in a 2003 330i with sport package & 5 speed which would run circles around the New TL and I am telling you the RX8 hands down handles better then my 330i or my 01 330Ci or for that matter.
__________________
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I wasn't comparing the TL to the RX-8. A few threads above my comments the guy was considering both the TL, RX-8, & Mustang.
I said the Talon or GSX handled almost as well and my friend's old 1997 GSX's susp. was moded and on a scale from 1-10 the RX-8 was a 10 and his GSX was a 9.5. You mod the susp. of a '97-'99 GSX and it ranks up to the RX-8 IMO. I was refering to the GSX which is AWD. You discussed the GST (FWD) and the '95 Talon. The '97-'99 GSX susp. was sligtly dif. than the 1995 & 1996 Eclipse and Talon.
The 330 would only run circles around the TL if it was parked. Stock the 330 has an edge over the TL. Drop the susp. add a rear sway bar, and front tower bar and the 330 would have a challenge. If you can afford the 330 and maintanance you are getting arguably the leader in its class. The TL is still cheaper, better interior ergonomics, more powerful, more reliable, and better insurance numbers IMO. I'll take the TL over the 330. If Acura would have made the TL RWD (ala S2000) It would be both better than the 330 and RX-8 (but that is another discussion).
For the price the RX-8 is a damn fine sporty car. The RX-8 is a pure sportscar. It lacks some amenites that I'm looking for, but putting that aside I don't disagree with everyones comments on its power. The RX-8 is fun to drive. The best car I've driven on the twisties. It looks faster than what it is. One of my cars is a 1990 240SX and when test drivingthe RX-8 I expected to be blown away by the power, I wasn't. The RX-8 has acceptable highway passing power and is so smooth, too smooth. My 1992 Acura Legend w/ 120k pulls harder on the highway than the RX-8. Driving around town you need torque, which the RX-8 is lacking IMO.
After saying all that, you add a turbo or two like the RX-7, and keep the price under $35k and I'll take that RX-8 over anything out there.
Plus the RX8 has plenty of get up and go down low, I remember that the turbo in the Talon and Eclipse had -0- pickup down low which was one of the few thigns I didn't like about it.
To compare the TL to the RX8 is comparing 2 totally different cars. I happen to love the looks of the new TL but it is a nice performing *sedan* with VERY good power which can't be compared to a sports car like the RX8.
You really need to live with the RX8 to know just how incredible it is, I absolutely LOVE my RX8 and for the record I traded in a 2003 330i with sport package & 5 speed which would run circles around the New TL and I am telling you the RX8 hands down handles better then my 330i or my 01 330Ci or for that matter.
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I wasn't comparing the TL to the RX-8. A few threads above my comments the guy was considering both the TL, RX-8, & Mustang.
I said the Talon or GSX handled almost as well and my friend's old 1997 GSX's susp. was moded and on a scale from 1-10 the RX-8 was a 10 and his GSX was a 9.5. You mod the susp. of a '97-'99 GSX and it ranks up to the RX-8 IMO. I was refering to the GSX which is AWD. You discussed the GST (FWD) and the '95 Talon. The '97-'99 GSX susp. was sligtly dif. than the 1995 & 1996 Eclipse and Talon.
The 330 would only run circles around the TL if it was parked. Stock the 330 has an edge over the TL. Drop the susp. add a rear sway bar, and front tower bar and the 330 would have a challenge. If you can afford the 330 and maintanance you are getting arguably the leader in its class. The TL is still cheaper, better interior ergonomics, more powerful, more reliable, and better insurance numbers IMO. I'll take the TL over the 330. If Acura would have made the TL RWD (ala S2000) It would be both better than the 330 and RX-8 (but that is another discussion).
For the price the RX-8 is a damn fine sporty car. The RX-8 is a pure sportscar. It lacks some amenites that I'm looking for, but putting that aside I don't disagree with everyones comments on its power. The RX-8 is fun to drive. The best car I've driven on the twisties. It looks faster than what it is. One of my cars is a 1990 240SX and when test drivingthe RX-8 I expected to be blown away by the power, I wasn't. The RX-8 has acceptable highway passing power and is so smooth, too smooth. My 1992 Acura Legend w/ 120k pulls harder on the highway than the RX-8. Driving around town you need torque, which the RX-8 is lacking IMO.
After saying all that, you add a turbo or two like the RX-7, and keep the price under $35k and I'll take that RX-8 over anything out there.
02-27-2004, 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by aekdb918@yahoo
I wasn't comparing the TL to the RX-8. A few threads above my comments the guy was considering both the TL, RX-8, & Mustang.
I said the Talon or GSX handled almost as well and my friend's old 1997 GSX's susp. was moded and on a scale from 1-10 the RX-8 was a 10 and his GSX was a 9.5. You mod the susp. of a '97-'99 GSX and it ranks up to the RX-8 IMO. I was refering to the GSX which is AWD. You discussed the GST (FWD) and the '95 Talon. The '97-'99 GSX susp. was sligtly dif. than the 1995 & 1996 Eclipse and Talon.
The 330 would only run circles around the TL if it was parked. Stock the 330 has an edge over the TL. Drop the susp. add a rear sway bar, and front tower bar and the 330 would have a challenge. If you can afford the 330 and maintanance you are getting arguably the leader in its class. The TL is still cheaper, better interior ergonomics, more powerful, more reliable, and better insurance numbers IMO. I'll take the TL over the 330. If Acura would have made the TL RWD (ala S2000) It would be both better than the 330 and RX-8 (but that is another discussion).
For the price the RX-8 is a damn fine sporty car. The RX-8 is a pure sportscar. It lacks some amenites that I'm looking for, but putting that aside I don't disagree with everyones comments on its power. The RX-8 is fun to drive. The best car I've driven on the twisties. It looks faster than what it is. One of my cars is a 1990 240SX and when test drivingthe RX-8 I expected to be blown away by the power, I wasn't. The RX-8 has acceptable highway passing power and is so smooth, too smooth. My 1992 Acura Legend w/ 120k pulls harder on the highway than the RX-8. Driving around town you need torque, which the RX-8 is lacking IMO.
After saying all that, you add a turbo or two like the RX-7, and keep the price under $35k and I'll take that RX-8 over anything out there.
I wasn't comparing the TL to the RX-8. A few threads above my comments the guy was considering both the TL, RX-8, & Mustang.
I said the Talon or GSX handled almost as well and my friend's old 1997 GSX's susp. was moded and on a scale from 1-10 the RX-8 was a 10 and his GSX was a 9.5. You mod the susp. of a '97-'99 GSX and it ranks up to the RX-8 IMO. I was refering to the GSX which is AWD. You discussed the GST (FWD) and the '95 Talon. The '97-'99 GSX susp. was sligtly dif. than the 1995 & 1996 Eclipse and Talon.
The 330 would only run circles around the TL if it was parked. Stock the 330 has an edge over the TL. Drop the susp. add a rear sway bar, and front tower bar and the 330 would have a challenge. If you can afford the 330 and maintanance you are getting arguably the leader in its class. The TL is still cheaper, better interior ergonomics, more powerful, more reliable, and better insurance numbers IMO. I'll take the TL over the 330. If Acura would have made the TL RWD (ala S2000) It would be both better than the 330 and RX-8 (but that is another discussion).
For the price the RX-8 is a damn fine sporty car. The RX-8 is a pure sportscar. It lacks some amenites that I'm looking for, but putting that aside I don't disagree with everyones comments on its power. The RX-8 is fun to drive. The best car I've driven on the twisties. It looks faster than what it is. One of my cars is a 1990 240SX and when test drivingthe RX-8 I expected to be blown away by the power, I wasn't. The RX-8 has acceptable highway passing power and is so smooth, too smooth. My 1992 Acura Legend w/ 120k pulls harder on the highway than the RX-8. Driving around town you need torque, which the RX-8 is lacking IMO.
After saying all that, you add a turbo or two like the RX-7, and keep the price under $35k and I'll take that RX-8 over anything out there.
That's a really well written and respectable post !! I didn't realize someone was comparing the TL above and you were commenting on it . . . I happen to be a big Honda/Acura fan (I've had 3 of them) and when I first saw the New TL I thought it was a beautiful car and I already know from my past Acura's that the engine sound they make is music to your ears, not quite as sweet as my father's NSX was but still very nice !!
I can't explain why I love this RX8 so much but t is addicting to drive, though I do understand where you are coming from because if you look at one of my first posts on this board I too thought it was lacking power and it didn't feel fast ... check out
my first post I use to post under Carguy but then changed my name
Anyway after living with my stepfathers RX8 for 3 days and getting used to the power delivery, the RX8 was surprisingly fast and now after owning one for over a month I love the power and never feel it is lacking any in fact I notice I drive this car a good 10-15 miles per hour faster then my other cars in the past becasue the car is so smooth you don't realize how fast you are going. It's strange to say but you really need to live with this car to appreciate it.
02-27-2004, 08:03 PM
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AF-RX8
Here - here. I've had several Hondas (Accords - Preludes - Passport (non really a Honda0 - CRV )- never an Acura - but the TL is sweet. But it's a sport car based on a sedan model - the RX-8 is a built first and only as a sports car. It's from the ground up a sports car - it's at total package.
John
Here - here. I've had several Hondas (Accords - Preludes - Passport (non really a Honda0 - CRV )- never an Acura - but the TL is sweet. But it's a sport car based on a sedan model - the RX-8 is a built first and only as a sports car. It's from the ground up a sports car - it's at total package.
John
02-27-2004, 09:50 PM
#94
Originally posted by graphicguy
Suffice to say, don't try to do the same things in a TL as you can do in an RX8 or you'll end up in the weeds.
Same for the new Mustang. I like it, but you'll give up the "finnese" of the RX8 for the "muscle" of the Mustang. Gain, don't try to drive it the same way you would the RX8 'cause it can't do the same things.
Suffice to say, don't try to do the same things in a TL as you can do in an RX8 or you'll end up in the weeds.
Same for the new Mustang. I like it, but you'll give up the "finnese" of the RX8 for the "muscle" of the Mustang. Gain, don't try to drive it the same way you would the RX8 'cause it can't do the same things.
02-28-2004, 01:44 AM
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I want to go with the RX-8. I just turned 30 and I don't want to jump to a 4 door. I'll keep the next car I buy for a good 5 to 6 years so I really don't want to compromise to much. I can live without some of the amenities (It does have the main ones: Heated seats, lighted gauges, great seats and seating position, m/r, RWD, Handling, Xenon). I just cannot get over the lack of power down low IMO. Maybe in the next year or two performance shops will address this for me and I might then consider a used RX-8.
02-28-2004, 08:20 AM
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Regarding handling.. I took the four day Grand Prix Racing Course at the Bondurant School of High Performance Driving a few weeks ago. We drove 2002 C-5 Corvettes for the first three days. 355 HP, ABS, Traction Control, Stabilitrack, Goodyear Eagles, Six speed. I was impressed. By the end of the third day, I was wishing I could take what I'd learned and had my 8 on the track! I believe the 8 is more predictable, the brakes give much better feel than the C5 and on a real road track, it would probably be a close call.
If you're a NASCAR or NHRA type, get Canzoomer's Stage 1 for a 20HP boost! If you enjoy using the steering wheel, you'll love the 8!
If you're a NASCAR or NHRA type, get Canzoomer's Stage 1 for a 20HP boost! If you enjoy using the steering wheel, you'll love the 8!
02-28-2004, 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by Robert
...Also, did you guys know that (again, at least in Canada), the RX-8 uses run-flat tire technology - just like the C5 and C6 Corvettes - with a tire-monitor display on the dash? So a spare isn't really necessary. However, to continue the priviledge, expect to pay $400 (again, CDN) per tire after three to four years, which is very expensive.
...Also, did you guys know that (again, at least in Canada), the RX-8 uses run-flat tire technology - just like the C5 and C6 Corvettes - with a tire-monitor display on the dash? So a spare isn't really necessary. However, to continue the priviledge, expect to pay $400 (again, CDN) per tire after three to four years, which is very expensive.
Originally posted by Robert
Well, the salesperson was certain it had run-flat tire technology.
Well, the salesperson was certain it had run-flat tire technology.
Originally posted by Robert
Don't be fooled, the back seats are for short hops only (or children). While head and shoulder room is adequate, my knees were pushing against the back of the front seat (and I'm only 5'11").
Don't be fooled, the back seats are for short hops only (or children). While head and shoulder room is adequate, my knees were pushing against the back of the front seat (and I'm only 5'11").
(that's where they can barely reach the steering wheel because the seat is so far back and reclined waaaay back)!
Originally posted by Robert
Anyway, a nice car which is probably targeted towards a niche market looking for exclusivity and something a little different to drive. Would I buy one? Maybe. The car is certainly worth of consideration. Assuming the flooding controversy is addressed and rectified by Mazda, and one can live with reduced fuel economy, and doesn't mind the price of entry (which quickly climbs when you start to option the car out), it's a truly rewarding ride.
Anyway, a nice car which is probably targeted towards a niche market looking for exclusivity and something a little different to drive. Would I buy one? Maybe. The car is certainly worth of consideration. Assuming the flooding controversy is addressed and rectified by Mazda, and one can live with reduced fuel economy, and doesn't mind the price of entry (which quickly climbs when you start to option the car out), it's a truly rewarding ride.
The price of entry is actually VERY reasonable in Canada, especially if you compare to ANY of the alternatives, and I'm not sure how you figure the price climbs quickly - the GT package is a real bargain for all the equipment it adds, and beyond that there is only 2 options - moonroof and NAV. Yeah, the dealer add-on doodads can be pricey, but that is the same for all cars, and you shouldn't buy them from your dealer anyway - forum sponsors Trussville and Rosenthal offer far better prices, Maurice/Canzoomer offer them for lower prices also.
Regards,
Gordon
Last edited by Gord96BRG; 02-28-2004 at 10:25 AM.
02-28-2004, 10:51 AM
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... and in Canada the GT package does not come only with the moonroof - so you can get about 1 1/2 inches (about 3.75 cm) of next headroom. Only in Canada ... pity. (Actually everywhere but USA)
John
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