On flooding problems - why doesn't Mazda...
#51
Mazda's thinking.. Miller Cycle Millenia, 3rd Generation Rx7.. This is a great innovative car company. Unforunately, they do so much better when they design the *un hi tech*. When they build the Miata and Protege'... it's somewhat like the third generation RX7.. if the car had cost 70k they might have made all the needed changes... Are we here again.. totally unique car concept, but in a market segment (30K), where it can compete with Honda, Nissan and Toyota... ??
#55
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Do you have an alternative vehicle you could drive? That short duration isn't good for any car: you don't truly get up to full operating temps. Fuel economy may be quite poor, your exhaust could collect a lot of moisture, your oil could become somewhat diluted by fuel due to such a high percentage of your time being spent in enrichment mode. I could go on but I don't want to depress you.
#56
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Originally posted by RX-jimenez
oopps!!!! sorry.... but i don't know yet i had it since saturday, and what you think i should do?????
oopps!!!! sorry.... but i don't know yet i had it since saturday, and what you think i should do?????
#58
Originally posted by MEGAREDS
I don't believe the flooding issue would qualify as a recallable issue with the feds, even if they receive many complaints.
Addendum:
After a bit more digging, I actually found many investigations on this site of "engine stalling" problems. Hmmm. Maybe the man makes a point.
I don't believe the flooding issue would qualify as a recallable issue with the feds, even if they receive many complaints.
Addendum:
After a bit more digging, I actually found many investigations on this site of "engine stalling" problems. Hmmm. Maybe the man makes a point.
You start the car;
Drive a short distance and kill the engine by accident (brake hard to avoid an accident and forgot to clutch) in a dangerous spot (e.g., an intersection); and
Can't move out of the dangerous intersection because you can't start the car.
Because of the above scenario, I do consider this a safety issue.
#59
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Originally posted by tpryor
Just a note:
There IS a Mazda mandated fix for the flooding issue!!!
Several weeks ago, my car was having the alignment "tweaked" for the next autocross, and my dealer asked if I had all the updates. I thought I did, but upon further checking, they found I was due the upgraded oil pan AND the "hotter" leading spark plugs FOR THE FLOODING ISSUE!
Mazda has let ALL of their dealer network know, that if a customer complains of "flooding" or "hard to start" issues, to put in these plugs under warranty.
Ask them.....
Just a note:
There IS a Mazda mandated fix for the flooding issue!!!
Several weeks ago, my car was having the alignment "tweaked" for the next autocross, and my dealer asked if I had all the updates. I thought I did, but upon further checking, they found I was due the upgraded oil pan AND the "hotter" leading spark plugs FOR THE FLOODING ISSUE!
Mazda has let ALL of their dealer network know, that if a customer complains of "flooding" or "hard to start" issues, to put in these plugs under warranty.
Ask them.....
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Originally posted by Habeeb
Two things you could do.. enjoy your car and keep up with your studies of the English language...
Two things you could do.. enjoy your car and keep up with your studies of the English language...
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Originally posted by RX-jimenez
oopps!!!! sorry.... but i don't know yet i had it since saturday, and what you think i should do?????
oopps!!!! sorry.... but i don't know yet i had it since saturday, and what you think i should do?????
#62
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Originally posted by RX-jimenez
oopps!!!! sorry.... but i don't know yet i had it since saturday, and what you think i should do?????
oopps!!!! sorry.... but i don't know yet i had it since saturday, and what you think i should do?????
#63
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COOL!! I LOVE THIS CAR, I HAVE IT SINCE SATURDAY I CAN'T FIND NOTHING I DON'T LIKE, I WAS A LITTLE SCARED SINCE I HAD TO RIDE 65 MILES FROM THE DEALER, AND IT ONLY HAD 6 MILES ON IT, BUT I WAS STOPING ALL THE TIME AND STILL DIDN'T WHEN MORE THEN 4000 RPM ON IT, STILL HAD TO RUN 65 TO 70 FOR AT LEAST 20 MINUTES WHEN I STOP, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WILL BE A PROBLEM...RIGHT?? I JUST DON'T WANT TO GO MORE THAN 5000 RPM UNTIL THE 600 MILES...SUSPENSION IS GREAT, I JUST CAN'T GET OF THE CAR AND THEN FIND AN EXCUSE TO GET BACK ON....
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The question still remains, will this cause flooding:
1) Start car, car is cold
2) Drive car a bit, car is not yet warm
3) Screw up pulling away at an intersection in 1st and stall the car
If this simple scenario can cause a towable flooding scenario, this very definitely does qualify as a NHTSA safety issue and IMHO is a deal-breaker for me as to whether to buy the 8 or not.
So, I know I can't start the car, back it out of the garage and shut it off.
But if I back out and accidentally stall the car when shifting from reverse to 1st after backing out of the driveway, is the 8 dead until it can get towed and "unflooded" by the dealer, perhaps at my cost?!?!
1) Start car, car is cold
2) Drive car a bit, car is not yet warm
3) Screw up pulling away at an intersection in 1st and stall the car
If this simple scenario can cause a towable flooding scenario, this very definitely does qualify as a NHTSA safety issue and IMHO is a deal-breaker for me as to whether to buy the 8 or not.
So, I know I can't start the car, back it out of the garage and shut it off.
But if I back out and accidentally stall the car when shifting from reverse to 1st after backing out of the driveway, is the 8 dead until it can get towed and "unflooded" by the dealer, perhaps at my cost?!?!
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Ok, so I've read this thread, and BillK's statement above sums it up great. I have a question for all of you engineer/mechanically minded people:
How much of the cold shut-off flooding is actually a direct function of temperature? If a warm (enough) engine will not flood, why not install block heaters? Or is there something else?
Before you all flame me crispy about how dumb a guy would have to be to buy a $30K car and have to keep it plugged in all the time and other impracticalities, I know, I know... I'm just trying to understand the idea. And so 8s in Arizona in the summer CAN be driven a short distance and not flood? Or Hawaii... that's the answer! I'm packing...
How much of the cold shut-off flooding is actually a direct function of temperature? If a warm (enough) engine will not flood, why not install block heaters? Or is there something else?
Before you all flame me crispy about how dumb a guy would have to be to buy a $30K car and have to keep it plugged in all the time and other impracticalities, I know, I know... I'm just trying to understand the idea. And so 8s in Arizona in the summer CAN be driven a short distance and not flood? Or Hawaii... that's the answer! I'm packing...
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And actually, is this really gasoline flooding? Or is it oil that is fouling the spark plugs?
My old two-stroke motorcycle used to "foul-out" once in a while, and I could usually take out the plug affected and wipe it off and dry it up and get things running. Don't suppose that would work out in the sticks (or my driveway)on the Mazda? How hard are those plugs to find?
My old two-stroke motorcycle used to "foul-out" once in a while, and I could usually take out the plug affected and wipe it off and dry it up and get things running. Don't suppose that would work out in the sticks (or my driveway)on the Mazda? How hard are those plugs to find?
#67
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Originally posted by Icanrel-8
How hard are those plugs to find?
How hard are those plugs to find?
NGK is the ONLY manufacturer at the moment and they don't even acknowledge them as a proper part number.
Dealers must order them direct from Mazda and no aftermarket suppliers can, as yet, acquire them.
I got a second set from my local dealer. They took a week and actually came from a European Mazda distributor as did my oil filter.
#68
Originally posted by BillK
The question still remains, will this cause flooding:
1) Start car, car is cold
2) Drive car a bit, car is not yet warm
3) Screw up pulling away at an intersection in 1st and stall the car
If this simple scenario can cause a towable flooding scenario, this very definitely does qualify as a NHTSA safety issue and IMHO is a deal-breaker for me as to whether to buy the 8 or not.
So, I know I can't start the car, back it out of the garage and shut it off.
But if I back out and accidentally stall the car when shifting from reverse to 1st after backing out of the driveway, is the 8 dead until it can get towed and "unflooded" by the dealer, perhaps at my cost?!?!
The question still remains, will this cause flooding:
1) Start car, car is cold
2) Drive car a bit, car is not yet warm
3) Screw up pulling away at an intersection in 1st and stall the car
If this simple scenario can cause a towable flooding scenario, this very definitely does qualify as a NHTSA safety issue and IMHO is a deal-breaker for me as to whether to buy the 8 or not.
So, I know I can't start the car, back it out of the garage and shut it off.
But if I back out and accidentally stall the car when shifting from reverse to 1st after backing out of the driveway, is the 8 dead until it can get towed and "unflooded" by the dealer, perhaps at my cost?!?!
That said, does anyone that's flooded their car know if there's a safe time period immediately after a cold shut down that one can easily start the car? My understanding of fouled plugs is that the plugs are wet due to oil or gas or both, and because liguid gas/oil does not burn well, ignition does not occur. If that is so then the longer one waits the better--more time for the liquid to evaporate. But I've taught my teenager how to drive a stick this summer in my 8, and I'm sure early on in the teaching we stalled and immediately restarted many times before the engine was fully warmed up. With my increased awareness of the flooding problem, I would now only attempt to teach someone how to drive my MT 8 after it was fully warmed. The question is, are there other factors involved which would cause the following:
1. Start car;
2. Stall car while still cold; and
3. If started within x minutes, car starts fine, no problems,
If attempt to start after x minutes, car flooded.
#69
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red_rx8_red_int:
If I had it to do over again, I would change only one thing. I knew my car was likely flooded when I got home, because my wife told me she had forgotten to warm it up. That being the case, I probably should not have initially tried to start it normally to confirm it was flooded, but instead should have gone right to the emergency start procedure. When I turned the key without first depressing the pedal all the way, I put more gas into the chamber. Were I to have to do it again, I would have pressed my foot to the floor, cranked it for 10 seconds, then tried to start it normally.
I also wonder if my wife started the car by giving it gas, which I never do. For some cars, that's required, and she may have just done it as habit. If so, that's even more fuel in the rotors that should not have been there.
The good news: the car seems to be running well.
One last point. I wonder if it is possible to push start a flooded RX-8. Although this would not work for those of us with automatic transmissions or those of us who are alone with the car, if you have a friend who can help push starting the car may be easier than calling AAA.
If I had it to do over again, I would change only one thing. I knew my car was likely flooded when I got home, because my wife told me she had forgotten to warm it up. That being the case, I probably should not have initially tried to start it normally to confirm it was flooded, but instead should have gone right to the emergency start procedure. When I turned the key without first depressing the pedal all the way, I put more gas into the chamber. Were I to have to do it again, I would have pressed my foot to the floor, cranked it for 10 seconds, then tried to start it normally.
I also wonder if my wife started the car by giving it gas, which I never do. For some cars, that's required, and she may have just done it as habit. If so, that's even more fuel in the rotors that should not have been there.
The good news: the car seems to be running well.
One last point. I wonder if it is possible to push start a flooded RX-8. Although this would not work for those of us with automatic transmissions or those of us who are alone with the car, if you have a friend who can help push starting the car may be easier than calling AAA.
#70
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Getting back to why I originally started this thread...
I wanted to brainstorm some ideas on what Mazda could have done differently. I think we understand the phenomena of flooding reasonably well - an excess of unburnt gas plus a tiny amount of oil from the seal injectors foul the plugs in certain conditions. Once the plugs refuse to fire, any additional gas getting into the combustion chamber compounds the problem. So, here is my next idea: For some reason Mazda did not orient the engine block so that the plugs are at the top of the combustion chamber. The little holes that expose the spark gap are recessed, horizontal, and, to me, look like they might trap gasoline. If the plugs were on top, those holes would drain more readily, and the gasoline would be less likely to pool and foul the plugs. I presume there is a reason why this is bogus thinking because Mazda's had a lot of time to figure this out and hasn't done it. But still, I don't see what's wrong with my reasoning.
I wanted to brainstorm some ideas on what Mazda could have done differently. I think we understand the phenomena of flooding reasonably well - an excess of unburnt gas plus a tiny amount of oil from the seal injectors foul the plugs in certain conditions. Once the plugs refuse to fire, any additional gas getting into the combustion chamber compounds the problem. So, here is my next idea: For some reason Mazda did not orient the engine block so that the plugs are at the top of the combustion chamber. The little holes that expose the spark gap are recessed, horizontal, and, to me, look like they might trap gasoline. If the plugs were on top, those holes would drain more readily, and the gasoline would be less likely to pool and foul the plugs. I presume there is a reason why this is bogus thinking because Mazda's had a lot of time to figure this out and hasn't done it. But still, I don't see what's wrong with my reasoning.
#72
Originally posted by bernieunger
Getting back to why I originally started this thread...
I wanted to brainstorm some ideas on what Mazda could have done differently. I think we understand the phenomena of flooding reasonably well - an excess of unburnt gas plus a tiny amount of oil from the seal injectors foul the plugs in certain conditions. Once the plugs refuse to fire, any additional gas getting into the combustion chamber compounds the problem. So, here is my next idea: For some reason Mazda did not orient the engine block so that the plugs are at the top of the combustion chamber. The little holes that expose the spark gap are recessed, horizontal, and, to me, look like they might trap gasoline. If the plugs were on top, those holes would drain more readily, and the gasoline would be less likely to pool and foul the plugs. I presume there is a reason why this is bogus thinking because Mazda's had a lot of time to figure this out and hasn't done it. But still, I don't see what's wrong with my reasoning.
Getting back to why I originally started this thread...
I wanted to brainstorm some ideas on what Mazda could have done differently. I think we understand the phenomena of flooding reasonably well - an excess of unburnt gas plus a tiny amount of oil from the seal injectors foul the plugs in certain conditions. Once the plugs refuse to fire, any additional gas getting into the combustion chamber compounds the problem. So, here is my next idea: For some reason Mazda did not orient the engine block so that the plugs are at the top of the combustion chamber. The little holes that expose the spark gap are recessed, horizontal, and, to me, look like they might trap gasoline. If the plugs were on top, those holes would drain more readily, and the gasoline would be less likely to pool and foul the plugs. I presume there is a reason why this is bogus thinking because Mazda's had a lot of time to figure this out and hasn't done it. But still, I don't see what's wrong with my reasoning.
#73
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Originally posted by Zio
the flooding issue is not an issue.
the flooding issue is not an issue.
#74
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Originally posted by red_rx8_red_int
I don't think they thought about it.
I don't think they thought about it.
Originally posted by red_rx8_red_int
I don't think the problem even existed until the port reflash of the ECU. Only the North America cars have this problem.
I don't think the problem even existed until the port reflash of the ECU. Only the North America cars have this problem.
Originally posted by red_rx8_red_int
I have no doubts that Mazda is trying to fix this problem. They've already came out with new plugs, which may or may not completely solve this.
I have no doubts that Mazda is trying to fix this problem. They've already came out with new plugs, which may or may not completely solve this.
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Having said all of this, does anybody know exactly what the dealer does to "un-flood" a flooded engine? Seems to me removing the spark plugs and turning the engine over with the gas pedal depressed (or fuel system fuse pulled) should do it. Surely, with all the expertise here, there is a safe "Do It Yourself" fix. I haven't experienced this and I do lots of short runs. The only thing that I do is rev the engine to 3-4,000 RPM's just before shutdown (on advice from my younger son - who is very experienced with Mazda Rotary engines).