djet38

I looked at the ingredients in Berryman Chemtool (which has all three) and compared it to a Paint Lacquer/Thinner and there was only 1 different ingredient (some ketyl-ethol or something....it was similar spelling) and I've seen Berryman Chemtool in a gallon for $21.99, and Lacquer/Thinner for $11.99 at Autozone. Has anyone tried this? I've read some forums where it's okay to add minimal amounts to fuel to increase octane rating and MPG (especially since some of these ingredients are used to make gas anyway)....

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

A few points here:

- I would prefer to pay $4.38 a gallon for 93 than $11.99 for something other than gasoline
- The alcohol is corrosive by nature, and too much of it without proper preparation can cause fuel line and/or combustion chamber problems
- Increasing the alcohol content of gas increases octane, but increasing octane is worthless if you can't benefit from it, and can be detrimental to mileage.

Octane is a resistance to burning. The higher the octane, the higher the temperature needed for combustion. As compression ratios increased, and forced induction evolved, it was found that the high compression was increasing the temperature of the air/fuel mix, to the point of self-combusting, i.e., pre-ignition, detonation. This is deadly to any combustion engine. Increasing the octane allow them to compress more and more, because it resisted this pre-ignition.

If your engine can't benefit by the higher octane through mechanical compression or forced induction, then you are just spending more for what you burn, and having a harder time burning it.

A perfect example is the timing advance on Miatas (just learned this). You can gain power on (at least) NA Miatas by advancing the timing more, but this increases the compression enough that it then requires 93 octane to run safely.

Edit:
The only benefit I could see off of that type of mixture would be a 'cleaning' effect on the chamber, helping to remove carbon, which, if you are carbon'ed bad, it can indeed improve mileage...but only to the original intended mileage, and once clean, no more benefit.

The rotary can not increase mechanical compression without a redesign of the interior angles and curves... And water/meth injection is already common for turbocharged/supercharged 8s as a safety precaution.

staticlag

Not worth it.

I mixed my own gas a few years ago and the offset of the price I spent for ingredients vs. mpg (1 at most) was meaningless....

Now for performance it may be another matter (but then again they make pre-mixed race gas)....

You want to be careful of low quality additives, b/c some of them can contain heavy ions that will kill your cat (lead, mercury, etc...)

staticlag

would be better to just run a can of techron though the engine or some lucas....

Those sites about mix your own gas for savings are all hype

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

Let me take this a little further.
Higher octane gasoline doesn't necessarily make more power. In order to require the higher octane fuel, you need to supercharge, turbocharge or add timing to the engine. Higher octane doesn't give you more power, unless you buy special exotic mixtures from racing fuel companies (eg. VP Racing).

djet38

I'm a doctor on television so I'll take your word on science. j/k my intentions were actually to run 87 octane and try to get closer to 92 via the lacquer thinner. It says on the Chemtool you can add a 15oz. can (1oz. per gallon of gas) to every tank safely for octane boost....any arguments on that approach? (just curious....)

djet38

^duly noted.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I would still go back to the detrimental effects that it would have on your fuel lines, fuel injectors, cat, etc... Would you save more than you will spend either protecting those or repairing them when they fail prematurely?

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

I'm not a chemist, but I do work for BP and work with and talk to the scientists that are.

Bigbacon

iTrader: (4)

Why would do any of this when you can just get proper fuel? (anything 87 and over will work)

staticlag

The equation is (octane) * (gallons) = (octane) * (gallons)

reduce and its

(octane * gal) + (octane * gal)
----------------
gal (total)


=

octane (total)

plug and chug....

15 gallons * 87 oct = 1305

.117 gal (15 oz of booster) * 115 octane (optimistic, xylene alone is 118) = 13.455

together ( 1305 +13.445 ) / 15.117

= 87.21 octane,

basically you raised your octane .2 using 15 oz of the additive....

If you wanted to get from 87 to 92 it would take 1 gallon of straight xylene to like 1/2 a tank of gas...

Hidef1080

Techron for the win....

But any increase in gas mileage will be small [unless your car is really carbon filled].
Short of Techron or BG 44K I would not put it in my tank.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Use Alcohol in your gas only if you want to get pass emission sniff test without a CAT.

04RX8man

You will end up spending more on gas/your crazy mixture than just buying93 octane.....you can figure that every full tank you fillup is approx 3-4 dolllars more with 93 than 87.

just buy the 93 and put some premix in ur tank to help lubricate the motor and keep the motor healthy longer than possibly damaging fuel pump/lines/injectors etc

tubingchamp

iTrader: (3)

This stuff increased my MPG by 4.. Amazing stuff, not sure how it works, but they say sugar increases MPG by making more fire inside your engine.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

^ True stuff. I heard a biker tested it out even!

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

LOL !

Hahahaha

yeah, that smart *** pour it into his gas tank ... then he ask why is his bike running like **** .... LMAO what a jackass lol

staticlag

Keep in mind that this works in a pinch though...

If your turbo'ed and are running a high-end tune, or its really really hot outside, or you are unsure of the gas you can always stop at home depot, walmart, etc.. pick up 2 gallons of xylene and make yourself a tank of 96-97 octane using a base of 92-93 octane...

I wouldn't use anything other than xylene though, its the highest octane commonly available, toluene, acetone, etc are all like 109-114 oct, xylene is like 118 IIRC

defeats the purpose of MPG as you can see, paying like $35 for a tank of gas then $24 on top of that just to mix your own comes out to ~ $3.90 per gallon (race gas is usually around $6 for 100 octane unleaded)

djet38

OKAY OKAY! I GIVE! lol seriously....good discussion. but I hear all the sugar in those energy drinks will make your car crash....

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Hehe, yeah, that was a reference to a motorcycle owner that "grabbed 2 bottle of NOS to help smooth his rough running bike"....and grabbed the energy drink by mistake. Took 7(?) pages of people trying to help him to realize his mistake and how much he was screwed.

djet38

lol...awesome. there's always 1, right?!

champi0n

iTrader: (1)

you'd win some sort of nobel prize if you found the magic formula to make gasoline burn more efficiently . While there is no doubt scientists working on new refining techniques right now, it's not going to happen.

The goal is to lessen refining cost in order to increase profit margin, not make better burning fuel so you buy less of it. Although I think i heard obama talk something of better burning fuel.

Best way to increase MPG is to only pick up petite women instead of the ones you're probably picking up now.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

People on this forum are SO DAMN QUICK to jump to conclusions that they wind up making fools of themselves in front of those with better reading comprehension skills or those with simply more experience in a given field.

While the thread starter does mention that he's heard of using these products to increase octane rating, the purpose of the thread is to discuss MPG, not octane/power output/engine protection via higher octane. Yet you guys are sitting here arguing that point to death.

I have never used xylene or toulene in my fuel supply in any quantity. I have heard of those being used more in the arena of increasing octane for knock resistance and better power in highly modified turbo engines. I believe to do this, you mix them in much greater ratios, than you would do if you simply want to run the mix for better MPG.

For instance, to increase octane from 93 to 105 in a highly modified car, you might run 2 gallons of one of these chemicals mixed with 3 or 4 gallons of pump gas.

This is a significant ratio and some people have brought up the fact that these chemicals BY THEMSELVES have been shown to have a negative impact on a fuel system in long term exposure. However these tests have been done by amateurs who did not take into account the pump-to-additive ratio, and simply exposed various fuel system parts to 100% full ratio off whichever additive is being evaluated...and not the ratio in question (2 parts xylene to 3 parts pump gas, for instance). Their ramblings also fail to take into account that some of the same additives being discussed are ADDED TO PUMP GAS BY THE MANUFACTURER in smaller quantities to begin with, depending on the brand, region, formulation, etc.

Speaking of MPG increase only, you use a VERY small ratio of additive to achieve this. For instance, in a car with a 15 gallon normal fill up volume, you'd use about 4.5 ounces of additive, which I believe is somewhere around 1 part additive to 425 parts fuel or 2350 parts (additive) per million. Not exactly a potent mixture, nor one that can do any damage. I have been using acetone for this purpose for about 5 years now. I have used it in several vehicles that are daily driven and highway driven (this admittedly does not include any of my RX's) and have found it to be mildly to moderately effective in increasing MPG.

My personal observations based on this area of the country are that it is more effective in the warm/summer months than the winter, and more effective on the highway than city or mixed driving. IT would obviously be more beneficial in an area of the country with fewer mountains, hills, curves, weather and elevation changes than east TN.

The ratio of acetone to pump gas for purposes of increased MPG comes out to 3 ounces additive per 10 gallons of fuel. For my truck which usually takes 24 gallons to fill up (26 gallon tank) I add a bit over 7 ounces per fillup. My wife's millenia usually takes 14 to fill up (16 gallon tank) and I add a bit over 4 ounces to her car. To accomplish this, I have picked used clear plastic bottles (juice, soda, etc.), tested them for a couple days with acetone to be sure the plastic is stable (acetone can eat some plastics), then keep them in the car for fill up time. I pre-measure the required number of ounces using a disposable plastic measuring cup the first time, then mark the outside of the container to that level for future refills. It is simply a matter of waiting until the car is near E, then dump in the acetone additive and pump the fuel...pumping action, fuel slosh while driving, and the action of the fuel pump circulating fuel will mix it for you.

As I said, in city driving you will see near zero increase in my personal experience. It also depends somewhat on what vehicle/engine you are driving as to how much increase you see. IT is usually not going to be more than 1-2mpg under any circumstances, but on a long trip that can mean significant savings.

My first test vehicle was a 99 yukon denali 4wd with a 5.7 vortec. It normally got about 13mpg on the highway which added up to just over 300 miles per tank (it had a slightly smaller tank than my current truck). I had owned the truck a couple years to make this determination. When I first tried acetone mixing on a highway trip, i was able to get about 355 miles to a tank, which was about 1.5mpg higher than without additive.

Next was my wife's 2.5 v6 millenia, which is an excellent test subject. This is because it is a fairly efficient engine to begin with, and she drives it the same way all the time, never having to tow or haul anything. She also does a lot of highway driving. This car on a 13-14 gallon fillup would normally get just over 300 miles per tank. Sometimes 315. I started dumping in acetone (without her knowledge, so as not to change her driving style) and checking the trip odometer, and it usually gets in the 365-380 miles per tank range. This is an average over about 100 tankfulls of gas over the course of a few years...not just one or 2 tankfulls.

In my current 02 yukon denali AWD, I usually get right at 14.5-15mpg on the highway running about 80, without additive. This comes out to about 325-340 miles to a full tank. I have made many a 10+ hour road trip in this truck, and with additive I have done a best of 415 miles to a tank, which is about a 1.5-2mpg increase.

That may not sound like much, and maybe not worth the effort...but over the course of a year the savings can be significant. Also, there is many a factory engineer who would probably get a hefty raise if he could get a 1-2mpg gain out of a vehicle he was designing. Factory design teams go to extremes to try and get even a 2-3% increase in fuel mileage.

Looking at the cost analysis, a gallon of acetone costs about $13-15 depending on where you buy it and such. IN this gallon is 128 ounces of additive, which treats approx 426 gallons of gas. Depending on vehicle you may see a 1-2mpg increase in highway driving, so let's call it 1.5. Let's also say your current mpg is 15. Using these figures, 426 gallons of untreated fuel might get you 6390 miles, and at an average fuel cost of $2.40/gal with no additive, for $1022 fuel cost to go that 6390 miles. Using the same figures, the treatment added giving you 16.5mpg will take you 7029 miles, on the same $1022 of fuel, and only $15 extra in additive.

That is 629 miles farther you went without additive. To travel that same distance without additive would require about 42.5 gallons of fuel at a cost around $102 extra. Or put another way, a full gallon of additive used properly in a highway driving application can save you somewhere in the neighborhood of $85 in fuel costs, after paying for itself of course.

I'd like for anyone here who wouldn't put up $15 to get back $100 with minimal effort to raise their hands, so I and others can make fun of you.

Now...let the **** talking continue. <rolls eyes>

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

RR. Thanks for the information. I stand corrected on my faulty points.

The one question I still have remaining though, is if it is this cost effective, and the gas companies are already adding it to the fuel in lesser quantities, why not add in 3oz per gallon across the board? The only direct reason I could think of is to make people use more fuel, which leans too far toward conspiracy theories for my comfort. (I generally disagree with the mentality behind conspiracy theories that distorts facts beyond truth.)

Either A) there really is a drawback, or B) not enough uni-lateral benefit for everyone to make it worth it. You state that A doesn't exist, which implies B. (or C, something else I'm not thinking of)

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Well, A) is my personal opinion and experience on a handful of test vehicles (other family members have started to run it on road trips as well). B) is a very likely possibility as well. There could be other factors ( C) ) which I/we do not know about. All I can speak from is personal experience, I cannot say definitively about the entire fuel industry or what affect it may have on all automobiles produced. That is something else that people do not realize, fuel mixtures vary considerably depending on manufacturer, region of the country, and time of year.