HELP Rx-8 04 or Civic si 06
04-21-2006, 06:50 PM
#151
I'm sure a F1 team would make you a rich man if you could give them only 0.5 seconds. But yes, in the grand scheme, not that much.
Last edited by BlueEyes; 04-21-2006 at 06:54 PM.
04-21-2006, 07:51 PM
#153
Would Ike be considered and anti-fanboi for the 8? Haha, I think he was put here to **** me off more on bad days and entertain me on good days! The unfortunate thing is that I am considering getting a GTI of Civic Si instead of the 8 when I return from Iraq (In 10 days!!!!!!) because the crappy gas prices . . . but I am thinking once I drive the 8 again (it has been over a year since the last test drive) my mind will be made up again to get the 8 and just deal with the fuel costs . . . there is always the lightrail here in Denver and I can pick up a cheap motorcycle to commute the 4 miles to the lightrail station after all!
04-21-2006, 11:08 PM
#154
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Originally Posted by Ike
The RSX guys are a little pissed about the SI, it's actually better equiped than thier Type S' are.
.5 seconds or 1 or even 2 seconds isn't much time, but feel wise it can be a world of difference. There is a pretty big difference in the feel of a car that goes 5.5 seconds 0-60 vs. one that does it in 6.0 seconds.
.5 seconds or 1 or even 2 seconds isn't much time, but feel wise it can be a world of difference. There is a pretty big difference in the feel of a car that goes 5.5 seconds 0-60 vs. one that does it in 6.0 seconds.
I would bet a Grand Prix GXP probably feels pretty fast because of the torque. Heck, a Durango with a Hemi in it "feels" fast for the same reason. At least for the first second or two.
But in all likelihood, there are a huge majority who never get to drive their cars on the track and never will. Those people are just "magazine racing" in these silly Car A vs. Car B threads. After a while it does get kinda tiring.
In a perfect world, track days would be less expensive and more accessible to the common man. To me, it's the only way to experience what it's like to drive a car. I'm a total newb at it, but it doesn't take long to realize this when you actually do it. Enough rambling...
04-22-2006, 12:13 AM
#155
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$9k price difference, easy!
"i dont know how the hell one comes up with the s2k being 9000 more than an rx8 unless you are going base AT (23k) vs the s2k sticker of 32. (btw options are quite few on an s2000, most of them are standard). Comparing an equally tooled rx8 to an s2000 and the difference is closer to $2000"
Easy. The RX-8 comes nicely loaded even as a base model. I don't need a sunroof. I don't need a 300 watt stereo from the air-heads at Bose. I don't NEED any extra weight at all. Jeez, what happened to "pure" sports cars. My 944 had only power windows, A/C, leather seats (face it, the Germans rarely do anything other than leather for their asses!) and a push-up manual sunroof with real metal latches! My inherent lack of *****-envy meant that I was quite happy that way! Fact: by the time someone is lost enough to need GPS navigation, they're probably on Mars already. Stop and ask a Martian where to go! There's a chance you'll actually LEARN something from human-to-alien interaction (as I type on a web-based forum).
The S2000 comes nicely-loaded alright, with few options available. So few that Edmunds wouldn't even list them! The problem is, I can walk in and BUY a new RX-8 (2006 vintage) for about $1500 off, before I even START negotiating. Ever asked a Honda dealer to negotiate even the $2000 Addendum they stick on TOP of the $33000 asking price (www.edmunds.com again, check it out)? Call one and ask if you don't believe me. It's like the (ewwwww) Pontiac Solstice. It's the hottest car EVER at a Pontiac dealership and they think they're sitting on gold tires! Even at $33k to $27k, there's a six grand swing in the price difference. Add addendum plus Mazda factory discount, and I'm out the door for $9k less (or nearly so) easily, without breaking a sweat.
BTW-Even though I write for a living I'm not always right. I do, however greatly enjoy writing when I am right. Right?
Try buying an Evo 8 at sticker... Might be able to get a WRX STi for sticker now that they've increased the "fugliness factor" by the square of infinity. Dealers always say "There's an *** for every seat." but in the case of the RX-8 there's about 1/4 of an *** for every seat, and it's a buyer's market for new ones (2005s and 06s). I was offered a silver 2005 Base 6MT for $5,000 OFF this past weekend in Phoenix, but I'm not in a position yet to trade off my Mustang until my magazine project is finished. At that price I could have installed the entire Mazdaspeed catalog and STILL not approached the price of a "well-equipped" S2000.
Easy. The RX-8 comes nicely loaded even as a base model. I don't need a sunroof. I don't need a 300 watt stereo from the air-heads at Bose. I don't NEED any extra weight at all. Jeez, what happened to "pure" sports cars. My 944 had only power windows, A/C, leather seats (face it, the Germans rarely do anything other than leather for their asses!) and a push-up manual sunroof with real metal latches! My inherent lack of *****-envy meant that I was quite happy that way! Fact: by the time someone is lost enough to need GPS navigation, they're probably on Mars already. Stop and ask a Martian where to go! There's a chance you'll actually LEARN something from human-to-alien interaction (as I type on a web-based forum).
The S2000 comes nicely-loaded alright, with few options available. So few that Edmunds wouldn't even list them! The problem is, I can walk in and BUY a new RX-8 (2006 vintage) for about $1500 off, before I even START negotiating. Ever asked a Honda dealer to negotiate even the $2000 Addendum they stick on TOP of the $33000 asking price (www.edmunds.com again, check it out)? Call one and ask if you don't believe me. It's like the (ewwwww) Pontiac Solstice. It's the hottest car EVER at a Pontiac dealership and they think they're sitting on gold tires! Even at $33k to $27k, there's a six grand swing in the price difference. Add addendum plus Mazda factory discount, and I'm out the door for $9k less (or nearly so) easily, without breaking a sweat.
BTW-Even though I write for a living I'm not always right. I do, however greatly enjoy writing when I am right. Right?
Try buying an Evo 8 at sticker... Might be able to get a WRX STi for sticker now that they've increased the "fugliness factor" by the square of infinity. Dealers always say "There's an *** for every seat." but in the case of the RX-8 there's about 1/4 of an *** for every seat, and it's a buyer's market for new ones (2005s and 06s). I was offered a silver 2005 Base 6MT for $5,000 OFF this past weekend in Phoenix, but I'm not in a position yet to trade off my Mustang until my magazine project is finished. At that price I could have installed the entire Mazdaspeed catalog and STILL not approached the price of a "well-equipped" S2000.
04-22-2006, 12:24 AM
#156
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"there is always the lightrail here in Denver and I can pick up a cheap motorcycle to commute the 4 miles to the lightrail station after all!"
Cheap, non-reliable motorcycle... $1,500. Helmet, gloves, jacket, insurance... $1000. Months of rehabilitation because some soccer mom in the SUV-du-jour turns directly into your path whilst talking feverently on her cell phone to Pizza Hut for her 10 yo's birthday party celebration... PRICELESS!
A motorcycle? In Denver? What are you, nuts? Cold, snow, rain, sleet, precipitation that only the Indians and Eskimos have words for all year round. Don't they hold a race up Pike's Peak every summer and some years the darn thing gets SNOWED OUT on the upper 1/3 of the course? Pardon me if Pike's Peak isn't near Denver... I get a little light-headed whenever I contemplate living in a climate where my NUTS could freeze to the seat of a motorcycle for over 1/2 of the year!
You know, a good MOUNTAN BIKE would probalby get you to the light rail almost as fast as a motorcycle does in city traffic...
Cheap, non-reliable motorcycle... $1,500. Helmet, gloves, jacket, insurance... $1000. Months of rehabilitation because some soccer mom in the SUV-du-jour turns directly into your path whilst talking feverently on her cell phone to Pizza Hut for her 10 yo's birthday party celebration... PRICELESS!
A motorcycle? In Denver? What are you, nuts? Cold, snow, rain, sleet, precipitation that only the Indians and Eskimos have words for all year round. Don't they hold a race up Pike's Peak every summer and some years the darn thing gets SNOWED OUT on the upper 1/3 of the course? Pardon me if Pike's Peak isn't near Denver... I get a little light-headed whenever I contemplate living in a climate where my NUTS could freeze to the seat of a motorcycle for over 1/2 of the year!
You know, a good MOUNTAN BIKE would probalby get you to the light rail almost as fast as a motorcycle does in city traffic...
04-22-2006, 12:25 AM
#157
i pwn therefore i am
Originally Posted by BlueEyes
PS. Welcome to the triple-digits 
04-22-2006, 01:22 AM
#160
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Originally Posted by MI_FamilyMan
Changing speeds a little bit, I am curious to know what RSX Type S owners think of the new Civic Si since they almost seem to be identically placed in the market. I also would think the last-gen Prelude should perform similar to the new Si. I can respect the Si for what it is because I used to drive Hondas all the time. But if I was looking at the Si, I would probably make sure to check out the new GTI, and also the upcoming Mazdaspeed 3. These are cars I feel are closer to the same than the RX8. Mainly due to the RWD and rotary engine, but I just feel the RX8 is not in the same category. And I feel it is just so much better looking.
Performance-wise, alot of cars will be much like the RX8 and Si under stock conditions and public driving conditions, which is what 95% of the population is buying for. So all this back-and-forth arguing seems pretty ridiculous. But I guess some people are really passionate.
Just remember how long 0.5 second is... in the grand scheme of things, it isn't jack.
Performance-wise, alot of cars will be much like the RX8 and Si under stock conditions and public driving conditions, which is what 95% of the population is buying for. So all this back-and-forth arguing seems pretty ridiculous. But I guess some people are really passionate.
Just remember how long 0.5 second is... in the grand scheme of things, it isn't jack.
Last edited by sunilseru; 04-22-2006 at 01:24 AM.
04-22-2006, 03:15 AM
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"FACT: They put Rx8 in the ST (street tuner) class... competing vs the likes of IS300, TSX, RSX, (RSX-S and civic SI are pretty similar cars...), cobalt ss, Mini cooper S, and CIVICs etc.... GRAND-AM considers RX8's performance to be in the same class as Civic SI... These cars are too slow around the tracks (real tracks that features TURNS, not drag strips) to compete in the GS (Grand Sport) class that 350Z, M3, Mustang GT etc is in... "
Don't forget the Turner Motorsport's 330i and 325i sedans... they're a powerhouse team, having won the GT class and all. I believe there's also an "engine size" factor in the ST (Street TOURING not "street tuner" ROFL) vs GS classifications, is there not? Above 3.0=GS, below 3.0 liters=ST? The Renesis is classified, by racing rules, as the equivalent of a 2.6 liter. BTW- Speedsource debuted a GS-class RX-8 this year... I think with a 3 rotor 20B in it. (http://www.speedsourceinc.com/index....s&news_id=2247) Shazaam! Break out the cans of Whoop-***, boys and get ready to watch and see what it does. 2004 and 2005 were the FIRST two years for the RX-8 team in ST. Two years, two more team championships for Mazda. Won driver's championship, and Mfg's championship too in 2005 (Driver's and Team only in 2004, I think). They DON'T run them in ST because they're SLOW around a track! Where did you get that notion? GranTurismo 4? Need for Speed video game?
Stock tires on the base Z are 225/45-18 front and 245/45-18 rear, and it already understeers at the front. I believe the ".9+ g" number you quote might be for a Track ($34,500) or Grand ($35,850) models, both of which come with upgraded Brembo brakes, suspensions, and 245/40-18 fronts and 265/35-19 rears. Let me add 20 mm to the 225/45-18 front RX8 tires and 40 mm (more than an inch and a half for non-metric types!) to the rear RX8 tires, and let's go see what it'll pull on the skid pad. Might I also politely mention that neither of those is anywhere NEAR $26,435? <applause, applause>
Both Nissan and Mazda specifically benchmarked a Porsche, and it wasn't the 911, it was the lowly Boxster. The Z achieves its numbers by lateral grip from the oversized tires, a stiff body shell, and a stiff suspension. It posts a similar slalom time against a lighter-weight, under-powered vehicle on SMALLER tires? I'm not saying it doesn't have a mean drivetrain, I'm just saying, you haven't seen a Z win in GS yet, have you? Maybe they have, I just don't know.
From "Car and Driver" August 2002- "How does this sound: 0 to 60 mph in 5.4 seconds and through the quarter-mile in 14.1 seconds at 101 mph? How about 0.88 g of cornering stick, a stopping distance from 70 mph to standstill in 164 feet, and a top speed of 156 mph? That's essentially the same performance as a Porsche Boxster S, which has a base price of more than 50 grand."
Still want to stand by that ".9+ g" statement? On wider tires? C&D's test unit had 245 series tires all the way around on LIGHTWEIGHT Rays wheels... It was a 2003 Track model. Oh, but BFG claims in their tire ad that a 350Z will pull X number of gees on their tires... Puh-lease... Sure makes me want to run out and buy a $33,000 car that I have to install $1000 in tires on just to reach ".9+ g"! Care to guess what their camber settings were to get that? I can set the camber in on an old Porsche 924 and get ".9+ g" on Kumho tires these days. If I could find a 924 still running!
C&D (Hot Tin Roofs, December 2002, shootout with Mustang Mach 1, Honda S2000, Audi TT) "The 350Z Touring's 5.7-second run to 60 mph and 14.3-second quarter-mile make it the second-quickest gas burner to the Mustang, and the 0.86 skidpad grip and the 163-foot stopping distance suggest it has reflexes that are second best to the Honda."
Oooooo, I didn't say that, C&D did. Do I hear quaking in the "Z is best" club yet? Did you catch that video posted in the "pictures and video" section of, oh what website was it... hmmm... the "RX8forum.com"! The one where the RX-8 A-spec runs away from a Honda S2000, a car which BEAT the Z in the two oh-so-critical categories of Skidpad and Braking?
Also in there: "Most of the Z's dynamic shortcomings stay out of sight until it starts orbiting a track. At that point velocity and mass gang up to push around the tires and suspension. The 3363-pound Z demonstrated textbook understeer of the tire-grinding variety in BeaveRun's tighter corners. The middle pedal also melted to mush after repeated laps, at its worst unable even to provoke the anti-lock brakes. The leap to the Track model and its Brembo brakes would likely cure that, but at an additional cost of $900."
And the price for this sort of performance? "This $33,788 Touring model with a six-speed manual throws in leather buckets, a Bose audio system with a six-disc changer, 18-inch wheels, and a digital tire-pressure monitor. A $30,969 Performance model gets you the same performance hardware without the leather seats and stereo." <Performance model is no longer offered, deleted name after it was pointed out that it was an oxymoron to name the middle-of-the-line model "Performance"! "Under-achiever" name briefly considered but ultimately rejected as "too factual".>
BTW-it WAS the fastest car around BeaveRun in that test, requiring 77.7 seconds to accomplish that feet (it beat a Mustang Mach 1 only in overall track time, NOT 0-60, NOT quartermile. A MUSTANG with a suspension designed when slide rulers were still in fashion in engineers front shirt pockets. A Mustang wearing truly crappy 17" Goodyear tires designed to outlast the rest of the car.). Ouch. That's "damning with faint praise"...
I do think the Track model Z IS fantastic, and one of the best all-around performers, but it get a good ***-waxing from an Evo 8 which costs less, even with dealer addendum (read as "painfully ripping your wallet from between your tightly-clentched *** cheeks"). The "Enthusiast model" is a rip off at $29,350, but that's what it takes to get the aluminum pedals, viscous limited slip differential, and Traction Control System to keep it from understeering drivers into the weeds! Has anyone even SEEN a Base model 350Z on a dealer's lot? Good luck with that search!I'd have a better chance of finding a leprechan in South Central L.A.!
Do I need to go into "fuel economy" too? Oh, okay, since you asked nicely. From Edmunds.com, long-term review Wrap-up April 2004 :
"True Market Value: $26,890
What It Sold For: $25,555
Depreciation: $9,880 or 28 percent of original price paid
Final Odometer Reading: 19,394
Best Fuel Economy: 25.7 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 13.1 mpg
Average Fuel Economy: 19.0 mpg"
So, their worst tank averaged 13.1? In a 350Z Track model? They averaged 19.0 for the entire time they had the car? Hmmmmm. We're seeing reports of RX-8s averaging 19 MPG in TOWN, and more on the freeway. And WE'RE bitching? Care to bet that an RX-8, which weighs 300 lbs less and runs on 20 mm narrower tires, not to mention scrubs off less speed when cornering, will average, when all is said and done, higher than 19-20 MPG? When driven sensibly? When I go to a track, all cents and sensibility (apologies to Jane Austin) go right out the window. I chug through gas like Dick Cheney goes through aspirin! In the real world, on a freeway, I try to drive like a miserly old granny out to squeeze every last mile from each nickle of fuel she puts in the tank. This means correct cold tire PSI, cruise control, and careful coasting when possible. If I can't speed, I might as well have fun playing the "Get the best mileage" game, right?
Oh but wait, what if they just happened to get a bad example... Surely the outrageously-more-expensive Infiniti G35 coupe did better, right? Well, here's the summary for that long-termer:
"True Market Value at service end: $28,632 (private-party sale)
Depreciation (after 22 months): $8,433 or 22.8% of original price paid
Final Odometer Reading: 9,364
Best Fuel Economy: 23.2 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 13.1 mpg
Average Fuel Economy: 15.4 mpg"
Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Drove only 9,300 miles in 22 months? Drove with a lead-foot? Drove it off a cliff at the end? Who knows. They spend $37,065 to get the roughly the fuel economy of a Chevy Tahoe! But hey, that VQ engine rules, right? Fact: Even Nissan's fuel efficient engines aren't class leaders. Do you honestly think their flagship 3.5 liter would be? My 03 Mustang averages better than that (as long as I'm not rocketing to 60 at every opportunity) and it only has 16 valves and NO variable valve timing.
The point is, around town, a 350Z/G35 sucks down fuel as fast or faster than an RX-8. Z owners grow tired of it just like Mustang owners and RX-8 owners do. That's not too terribly surprising is it? BTW- an M3 doesn't do any better for it's $50k price.
When I finally grow tired of bolting parts onto my Mustang to make it do what it most definitely does not want to do (corner) and decide to convert it back to stock, I WILL have the money to get an RX-8, with the Mazdaspeed goodies, and a slight-stiffer coil-over suspension. Heck I might even spring for the lightweight Bronze forged-aluminum one piece wheels too. At $500 each, I'll be able to buy EIGHT of them and STILL not reach the price of the cars tested above!
OUCH!
Should I mention the trunk which holds, approximately, one bag of golf clubs AS LONG AS YOU REMOVE the WOODS from the bag first? I think at that point, the correct terminology would be "a set of golf clubs and one carefully folded golf bag, some assembly required". Wouldn't look as nice on that fancy paperstock they print Z brochures on, now would it?
Now a Civic Si... that's a fine golf club carrying automobile. They might even let you caddy for the "regulars" at the country club if you show up in one of those. You could drive it around all day, bouncing off the rev limiter with each shift, and probably not fall below 20 miles per gallon! Better still, put one of those blaring, noise-polluting exhausts on it so you can claim to all of your friends how you picked up 20 horsepower with it. Do you know why it's named the "Civic"? Because it's harder for Honda's target audience to misspell it that way! Number one reason VTEC feels so strong when it comes on? Because below that you'll get passed by old VW Beetles and hippies on bicycles from a standing stop.
One more parting shot across the bow, these numbers just in from the Honda of America website... For the 2006 S2000... drumroll please. Price... $34,050. Weight... not revealed by Honda, Horsepower (in the new format) 237. Torque... 162. Front tire size 215/45-17. Rear tire size... 245/40-17! Cargo space... wait for it... 5.0 cubic feet! Fuel economy... city 20, highway 26! Oooooweeee, I'm going to have to write to my mamma about those numbers! Dear Gawd, I'm sure glad it has "textured aluminum pedals", a "4-way manually adjustable driver's seat", and "dual spiral horns"! I just don't think I could live without those fully-loaded luxuries! Pardon me while I jump for joy. I can think of one useful option; the 48 lb aluminum hard roof. Can anyone even tell me the correct price of 48 lbs of unshaped, raw aluminum? Call it 32 lbs if you like and 16 lbs of rear glass... Bueller? Bueller?
There is no perfect car... there is only your OWN car, and not even that if you're married! :D
This has been too much fun tonight, but I'm way past my bedtime now...
Don't forget the Turner Motorsport's 330i and 325i sedans... they're a powerhouse team, having won the GT class and all. I believe there's also an "engine size" factor in the ST (Street TOURING not "street tuner" ROFL) vs GS classifications, is there not? Above 3.0=GS, below 3.0 liters=ST? The Renesis is classified, by racing rules, as the equivalent of a 2.6 liter. BTW- Speedsource debuted a GS-class RX-8 this year... I think with a 3 rotor 20B in it. (http://www.speedsourceinc.com/index....s&news_id=2247) Shazaam! Break out the cans of Whoop-***, boys and get ready to watch and see what it does. 2004 and 2005 were the FIRST two years for the RX-8 team in ST. Two years, two more team championships for Mazda. Won driver's championship, and Mfg's championship too in 2005 (Driver's and Team only in 2004, I think). They DON'T run them in ST because they're SLOW around a track! Where did you get that notion? GranTurismo 4? Need for Speed video game?
Stock tires on the base Z are 225/45-18 front and 245/45-18 rear, and it already understeers at the front. I believe the ".9+ g" number you quote might be for a Track ($34,500) or Grand ($35,850) models, both of which come with upgraded Brembo brakes, suspensions, and 245/40-18 fronts and 265/35-19 rears. Let me add 20 mm to the 225/45-18 front RX8 tires and 40 mm (more than an inch and a half for non-metric types!) to the rear RX8 tires, and let's go see what it'll pull on the skid pad. Might I also politely mention that neither of those is anywhere NEAR $26,435? <applause, applause>
Both Nissan and Mazda specifically benchmarked a Porsche, and it wasn't the 911, it was the lowly Boxster. The Z achieves its numbers by lateral grip from the oversized tires, a stiff body shell, and a stiff suspension. It posts a similar slalom time against a lighter-weight, under-powered vehicle on SMALLER tires? I'm not saying it doesn't have a mean drivetrain, I'm just saying, you haven't seen a Z win in GS yet, have you? Maybe they have, I just don't know.
From "Car and Driver" August 2002- "How does this sound: 0 to 60 mph in 5.4 seconds and through the quarter-mile in 14.1 seconds at 101 mph? How about 0.88 g of cornering stick, a stopping distance from 70 mph to standstill in 164 feet, and a top speed of 156 mph? That's essentially the same performance as a Porsche Boxster S, which has a base price of more than 50 grand."
Still want to stand by that ".9+ g" statement? On wider tires? C&D's test unit had 245 series tires all the way around on LIGHTWEIGHT Rays wheels... It was a 2003 Track model. Oh, but BFG claims in their tire ad that a 350Z will pull X number of gees on their tires... Puh-lease... Sure makes me want to run out and buy a $33,000 car that I have to install $1000 in tires on just to reach ".9+ g"! Care to guess what their camber settings were to get that? I can set the camber in on an old Porsche 924 and get ".9+ g" on Kumho tires these days. If I could find a 924 still running!
C&D (Hot Tin Roofs, December 2002, shootout with Mustang Mach 1, Honda S2000, Audi TT) "The 350Z Touring's 5.7-second run to 60 mph and 14.3-second quarter-mile make it the second-quickest gas burner to the Mustang, and the 0.86 skidpad grip and the 163-foot stopping distance suggest it has reflexes that are second best to the Honda."
Oooooo, I didn't say that, C&D did. Do I hear quaking in the "Z is best" club yet? Did you catch that video posted in the "pictures and video" section of, oh what website was it... hmmm... the "RX8forum.com"! The one where the RX-8 A-spec runs away from a Honda S2000, a car which BEAT the Z in the two oh-so-critical categories of Skidpad and Braking?
Also in there: "Most of the Z's dynamic shortcomings stay out of sight until it starts orbiting a track. At that point velocity and mass gang up to push around the tires and suspension. The 3363-pound Z demonstrated textbook understeer of the tire-grinding variety in BeaveRun's tighter corners. The middle pedal also melted to mush after repeated laps, at its worst unable even to provoke the anti-lock brakes. The leap to the Track model and its Brembo brakes would likely cure that, but at an additional cost of $900."
And the price for this sort of performance? "This $33,788 Touring model with a six-speed manual throws in leather buckets, a Bose audio system with a six-disc changer, 18-inch wheels, and a digital tire-pressure monitor. A $30,969 Performance model gets you the same performance hardware without the leather seats and stereo." <Performance model is no longer offered, deleted name after it was pointed out that it was an oxymoron to name the middle-of-the-line model "Performance"! "Under-achiever" name briefly considered but ultimately rejected as "too factual".>
BTW-it WAS the fastest car around BeaveRun in that test, requiring 77.7 seconds to accomplish that feet (it beat a Mustang Mach 1 only in overall track time, NOT 0-60, NOT quartermile. A MUSTANG with a suspension designed when slide rulers were still in fashion in engineers front shirt pockets. A Mustang wearing truly crappy 17" Goodyear tires designed to outlast the rest of the car.). Ouch. That's "damning with faint praise"...
I do think the Track model Z IS fantastic, and one of the best all-around performers, but it get a good ***-waxing from an Evo 8 which costs less, even with dealer addendum (read as "painfully ripping your wallet from between your tightly-clentched *** cheeks"). The "Enthusiast model" is a rip off at $29,350, but that's what it takes to get the aluminum pedals, viscous limited slip differential, and Traction Control System to keep it from understeering drivers into the weeds! Has anyone even SEEN a Base model 350Z on a dealer's lot? Good luck with that search!I'd have a better chance of finding a leprechan in South Central L.A.!
Do I need to go into "fuel economy" too? Oh, okay, since you asked nicely. From Edmunds.com, long-term review Wrap-up April 2004 :
"True Market Value: $26,890
What It Sold For: $25,555
Depreciation: $9,880 or 28 percent of original price paid
Final Odometer Reading: 19,394
Best Fuel Economy: 25.7 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 13.1 mpg
Average Fuel Economy: 19.0 mpg"
So, their worst tank averaged 13.1? In a 350Z Track model? They averaged 19.0 for the entire time they had the car? Hmmmmm. We're seeing reports of RX-8s averaging 19 MPG in TOWN, and more on the freeway. And WE'RE bitching? Care to bet that an RX-8, which weighs 300 lbs less and runs on 20 mm narrower tires, not to mention scrubs off less speed when cornering, will average, when all is said and done, higher than 19-20 MPG? When driven sensibly? When I go to a track, all cents and sensibility (apologies to Jane Austin) go right out the window. I chug through gas like Dick Cheney goes through aspirin! In the real world, on a freeway, I try to drive like a miserly old granny out to squeeze every last mile from each nickle of fuel she puts in the tank. This means correct cold tire PSI, cruise control, and careful coasting when possible. If I can't speed, I might as well have fun playing the "Get the best mileage" game, right?
Oh but wait, what if they just happened to get a bad example... Surely the outrageously-more-expensive Infiniti G35 coupe did better, right? Well, here's the summary for that long-termer:
"True Market Value at service end: $28,632 (private-party sale)
Depreciation (after 22 months): $8,433 or 22.8% of original price paid
Final Odometer Reading: 9,364
Best Fuel Economy: 23.2 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 13.1 mpg
Average Fuel Economy: 15.4 mpg"
Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Drove only 9,300 miles in 22 months? Drove with a lead-foot? Drove it off a cliff at the end? Who knows. They spend $37,065 to get the roughly the fuel economy of a Chevy Tahoe! But hey, that VQ engine rules, right? Fact: Even Nissan's fuel efficient engines aren't class leaders. Do you honestly think their flagship 3.5 liter would be? My 03 Mustang averages better than that (as long as I'm not rocketing to 60 at every opportunity) and it only has 16 valves and NO variable valve timing.
The point is, around town, a 350Z/G35 sucks down fuel as fast or faster than an RX-8. Z owners grow tired of it just like Mustang owners and RX-8 owners do. That's not too terribly surprising is it? BTW- an M3 doesn't do any better for it's $50k price.
When I finally grow tired of bolting parts onto my Mustang to make it do what it most definitely does not want to do (corner) and decide to convert it back to stock, I WILL have the money to get an RX-8, with the Mazdaspeed goodies, and a slight-stiffer coil-over suspension. Heck I might even spring for the lightweight Bronze forged-aluminum one piece wheels too. At $500 each, I'll be able to buy EIGHT of them and STILL not reach the price of the cars tested above!
OUCH!
Should I mention the trunk which holds, approximately, one bag of golf clubs AS LONG AS YOU REMOVE the WOODS from the bag first? I think at that point, the correct terminology would be "a set of golf clubs and one carefully folded golf bag, some assembly required". Wouldn't look as nice on that fancy paperstock they print Z brochures on, now would it?
Now a Civic Si... that's a fine golf club carrying automobile. They might even let you caddy for the "regulars" at the country club if you show up in one of those. You could drive it around all day, bouncing off the rev limiter with each shift, and probably not fall below 20 miles per gallon! Better still, put one of those blaring, noise-polluting exhausts on it so you can claim to all of your friends how you picked up 20 horsepower with it. Do you know why it's named the "Civic"? Because it's harder for Honda's target audience to misspell it that way! Number one reason VTEC feels so strong when it comes on? Because below that you'll get passed by old VW Beetles and hippies on bicycles from a standing stop.
One more parting shot across the bow, these numbers just in from the Honda of America website... For the 2006 S2000... drumroll please. Price... $34,050. Weight... not revealed by Honda, Horsepower (in the new format) 237. Torque... 162. Front tire size 215/45-17. Rear tire size... 245/40-17! Cargo space... wait for it... 5.0 cubic feet! Fuel economy... city 20, highway 26! Oooooweeee, I'm going to have to write to my mamma about those numbers! Dear Gawd, I'm sure glad it has "textured aluminum pedals", a "4-way manually adjustable driver's seat", and "dual spiral horns"! I just don't think I could live without those fully-loaded luxuries! Pardon me while I jump for joy. I can think of one useful option; the 48 lb aluminum hard roof. Can anyone even tell me the correct price of 48 lbs of unshaped, raw aluminum? Call it 32 lbs if you like and 16 lbs of rear glass... Bueller? Bueller?
There is no perfect car... there is only your OWN car, and not even that if you're married! :D
This has been too much fun tonight, but I'm way past my bedtime now...
04-22-2006, 10:01 AM
#163
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Drove them both before I made my decision and bought the 8.
The civic Si is a nice every day car but the interior is ????? the dash is cheap looking and funky. The overall feel of the materials in the interior are not even close to the quality of the RX-8.
The civic Si is a nice every day car but the interior is ????? the dash is cheap looking and funky. The overall feel of the materials in the interior are not even close to the quality of the RX-8.
04-22-2006, 10:13 AM
#164
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Originally Posted by PhotoMunkey
"i dont know how the hell one comes up with the s2k being 9000 more than an rx8 unless you are going base AT (23k) vs the s2k sticker of 32. (btw options are quite few on an s2000, most of them are standard). Comparing an equally tooled rx8 to an s2000 and the difference is closer to $2000"
Easy. The RX-8 comes nicely loaded even as a base model. I don't need a sunroof. I don't need a 300 watt stereo from the air-heads at Bose. I don't NEED any extra weight at all. Jeez, what happened to "pure" sports cars. My 944 had only power windows, A/C, leather seats (face it, the Germans rarely do anything other than leather for their asses!) and a push-up manual sunroof with real metal latches! My inherent lack of *****-envy meant that I was quite happy that way! Fact: by the time someone is lost enough to need GPS navigation, they're probably on Mars already. Stop and ask a Martian where to go! There's a chance you'll actually LEARN something from human-to-alien interaction (as I type on a web-based forum).
The S2000 comes nicely-loaded alright, with few options available. So few that Edmunds wouldn't even list them! The problem is, I can walk in and BUY a new RX-8 (2006 vintage) for about $1500 off, before I even START negotiating. Ever asked a Honda dealer to negotiate even the $2000 Addendum they stick on TOP of the $33000 asking price (www.edmunds.com again, check it out)? Call one and ask if you don't believe me. It's like the (ewwwww) Pontiac Solstice. It's the hottest car EVER at a Pontiac dealership and they think they're sitting on gold tires! Even at $33k to $27k, there's a six grand swing in the price difference. Add addendum plus Mazda factory discount, and I'm out the door for $9k less (or nearly so) easily, without breaking a sweat.
BTW-Even though I write for a living I'm not always right. I do, however greatly enjoy writing when I am right. Right?
Try buying an Evo 8 at sticker... Might be able to get a WRX STi for sticker now that they've increased the "fugliness factor" by the square of infinity. Dealers always say "There's an *** for every seat." but in the case of the RX-8 there's about 1/4 of an *** for every seat, and it's a buyer's market for new ones (2005s and 06s). I was offered a silver 2005 Base 6MT for $5,000 OFF this past weekend in Phoenix, but I'm not in a position yet to trade off my Mustang until my magazine project is finished. At that price I could have installed the entire Mazdaspeed catalog and STILL not approached the price of a "well-equipped" S2000.
Easy. The RX-8 comes nicely loaded even as a base model. I don't need a sunroof. I don't need a 300 watt stereo from the air-heads at Bose. I don't NEED any extra weight at all. Jeez, what happened to "pure" sports cars. My 944 had only power windows, A/C, leather seats (face it, the Germans rarely do anything other than leather for their asses!) and a push-up manual sunroof with real metal latches! My inherent lack of *****-envy meant that I was quite happy that way! Fact: by the time someone is lost enough to need GPS navigation, they're probably on Mars already. Stop and ask a Martian where to go! There's a chance you'll actually LEARN something from human-to-alien interaction (as I type on a web-based forum).
The S2000 comes nicely-loaded alright, with few options available. So few that Edmunds wouldn't even list them! The problem is, I can walk in and BUY a new RX-8 (2006 vintage) for about $1500 off, before I even START negotiating. Ever asked a Honda dealer to negotiate even the $2000 Addendum they stick on TOP of the $33000 asking price (www.edmunds.com again, check it out)? Call one and ask if you don't believe me. It's like the (ewwwww) Pontiac Solstice. It's the hottest car EVER at a Pontiac dealership and they think they're sitting on gold tires! Even at $33k to $27k, there's a six grand swing in the price difference. Add addendum plus Mazda factory discount, and I'm out the door for $9k less (or nearly so) easily, without breaking a sweat.
BTW-Even though I write for a living I'm not always right. I do, however greatly enjoy writing when I am right. Right?
Try buying an Evo 8 at sticker... Might be able to get a WRX STi for sticker now that they've increased the "fugliness factor" by the square of infinity. Dealers always say "There's an *** for every seat." but in the case of the RX-8 there's about 1/4 of an *** for every seat, and it's a buyer's market for new ones (2005s and 06s). I was offered a silver 2005 Base 6MT for $5,000 OFF this past weekend in Phoenix, but I'm not in a position yet to trade off my Mustang until my magazine project is finished. At that price I could have installed the entire Mazdaspeed catalog and STILL not approached the price of a "well-equipped" S2000.
Last edited by Ike; 04-22-2006 at 10:30 AM.
04-22-2006, 11:07 AM
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The dealers I've spoken with in Phoenix have NO EVOs in stock. They sell within days of arriving on the lot, or are pre-sold. Can't really say about Hondas as I haven't looked. I just figured that their "top of the line" model would be bringing big bucks. Perhaps not at all dealerships across the country? It's quite a different market in Phx and L.A. I'm sure, up in Milwaukee, once the glaciers retreat again in the spring, the dealerships will dig themselves out from the snow and find buyers for the only "summer car" in Honda's line up. Out west, in the land of Perpetual Sunshine, I assure you these "sports cars" sell at quite a handsome pace...
04-22-2006, 11:32 AM
#166
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The Mitsu dealer in Santa Monica always has atleast 15 - 20 Evos on the lot. Not sure if they are as hot selling. But the same can't be said with Subaru and Honda. The S2000 is produced in very limited numbers. Hard to find them on the lots.
04-22-2006, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by PhotoMunkey
The dealers I've spoken with in Phoenix have NO EVOs in stock. They sell within days of arriving on the lot, or are pre-sold. Can't really say about Hondas as I haven't looked. I just figured that their "top of the line" model would be bringing big bucks. Perhaps not at all dealerships across the country? It's quite a different market in Phx and L.A. I'm sure, up in Milwaukee, once the glaciers retreat again in the spring, the dealerships will dig themselves out from the snow and find buyers for the only "summer car" in Honda's line up. Out west, in the land of Perpetual Sunshine, I assure you these "sports cars" sell at quite a handsome pace...
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...9&page=1&pp=15
04-22-2006, 01:19 PM
#168
PhotoMunkey, I think I will try my luck with the Soccermoms so I can have my 8 haha, but you definately make a good point about the weather. I am definately not parking my future Rx8 in doording heaven of a public parking garage!
04-22-2006, 01:41 PM
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Djgiron,
Congrats on "getting out alive" from Iraq! That's far more important than what you should happen to choose to drive over here. Besides, nearly anything's faster than an up-armored Hummer!
Congrats on "getting out alive" from Iraq! That's far more important than what you should happen to choose to drive over here. Besides, nearly anything's faster than an up-armored Hummer!
04-22-2006, 02:14 PM
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the si ownes the rsx type-s. i test drove both a few hours appart, and the civic si had way more going for it than the rsx for $5k less. i'm sure there's a ton of pissed off type-s drivers out there since the si is so much better now.
i agree with what stew, the si is a fun car (i had fun the 15 minutes i spent with it), but the rx8 is a sports car - and it's better in every aspect. rear drive, better feel, more power, faster, and sexy as hell. plus it's unique. i see 13874895743 hondas a week. i see maybe 2 other 8s a day.
i agree with what stew, the si is a fun car (i had fun the 15 minutes i spent with it), but the rx8 is a sports car - and it's better in every aspect. rear drive, better feel, more power, faster, and sexy as hell. plus it's unique. i see 13874895743 hondas a week. i see maybe 2 other 8s a day.
04-22-2006, 02:17 PM
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"Also, the best pricing in the country on Evos is found in L.A. You don't even have to haggle..."
I stand corrected on EVOs... That tears it! I'm buying an EVO now!
Are Evo 9s soft in the market because shots of the new 10 have been released? Probably. Will they get better gas mileage than an RX-8? Probably. Do they look as good as an RX-8 wearing the Mazdaspeed kit? No. I still like the Evo, but would wait for a new 10 if it were on my list.
I stand corrected on EVOs... That tears it! I'm buying an EVO now!
Are Evo 9s soft in the market because shots of the new 10 have been released? Probably. Will they get better gas mileage than an RX-8? Probably. Do they look as good as an RX-8 wearing the Mazdaspeed kit? No. I still like the Evo, but would wait for a new 10 if it were on my list.
04-23-2006, 11:43 AM
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Two dealers sitting on Evos in the richest part of LA go online to provide an "Evo group-buy special", and you really want to claim they're not soft? Perhaps those three dealers actually HAVE those cars because, when a prospective buyer shows up in person and sees the $2k addendum sticker on the windshiled, they simply don't buy one? And of course, two dealers (out of how many in L.A.?) constitutes a majority, right? The third dealer, in Victorville, is right down the road from Willow Springs International Raceway, which might have some effect on their pricing.
That first dealer has 24 2006 Evos, the second one has 6, but NOOOOOOoooooo way are they soft in the market, right? I'm willing to bet their time-in-inventory is over 90 days, and that's why the dealership's freaking out.
That first dealer has 24 2006 Evos, the second one has 6, but NOOOOOOoooooo way are they soft in the market, right? I'm willing to bet their time-in-inventory is over 90 days, and that's why the dealership's freaking out.
04-23-2006, 02:31 PM
#174
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Southcoast is known throughout the Evo community to have THE best prices on Evos, they sell more Evos than anyone else in the country and take as many Evos as they can get every year. People fly in from all over the country to buy there, or pay to have them shipped from there.
So now which is it, Evos are soft in the market or "they sell within days of arriving on the lot, or are pre-sold", or Evos are soft in the market? Make up your freaking mind...
So now which is it, Evos are soft in the market or "they sell within days of arriving on the lot, or are pre-sold", or Evos are soft in the market? Make up your freaking mind...
04-23-2006, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PhotoMunkey
Two dealers sitting on Evos in the richest part of LA go online to provide an "Evo group-buy special", and you really want to claim they're not soft? Perhaps those three dealers actually HAVE those cars because, when a prospective buyer shows up in person and sees the $2k addendum sticker on the windshiled, they simply don't buy one? And of course, two dealers (out of how many in L.A.?) constitutes a majority, right? The third dealer, in Victorville, is right down the road from Willow Springs International Raceway, which might have some effect on their pricing.
That first dealer has 24 2006 Evos, the second one has 6, but NOOOOOOoooooo way are they soft in the market, right? I'm willing to bet their time-in-inventory is over 90 days, and that's why the dealership's freaking out.
That first dealer has 24 2006 Evos, the second one has 6, but NOOOOOOoooooo way are they soft in the market, right? I'm willing to bet their time-in-inventory is over 90 days, and that's why the dealership's freaking out.
The number of vehicles on a car lot at any given time tells you absolutely NOTHING about whether or not a car is selling. What gives you some more information is something like the following:
This graphic shows how long it takes before a specific car stays on the lot. Even then, the most you can infer about the data is that a manufacturer overestimated the number of units that they would sell. For instance, say Toyota estimates that they will sell 700,000 Camrys this year, but they only sell 500,000. Well, the number of days that a Camry sits on a lot will go up significantly. But, you can't say that a car that sells 500,000 units (which would be more than any other vehicle sold last year) "isn't selling" or is "soft in the market".
CNs: Get a clue.