Hindsight RX-7 vs Rx-8 which is or was the better Car?
11-12-2007, 07:37 PM
#126
Yep you are right.. but since they didn't do a non turbo FD (big marketing error), you really should compare the FC to the 300zx or Supra. And based on that, the FE is finally a worthy successor to the FC. And FWD??? FWD is not on a sports car so I am not sure why included the 3000GT/Stealth on there. DSM doesn't build sports cars and Sports cars are not FWD. Hell Sports coupes are not even FWD. Economy cars are FWD.
As for FWD not being sportscars I totally agree; just that I was presenting the typical non-enthusiast's POV who thinks that because a hunk of metal has 2 doors and may look "sporty" then it's automatically classified a sportscar. I do find one exception to the theory....the Integra Type R. Though not a real sportscar it sure does a good job of being more hardcore than those 3500 to 3900 pounders (300,3000,Supra).
But the problem with that, is that Mazda didn't limit production to demand... they overbuilt for demand and still couldn't sell that POS. Do you honestly think that if Mazda sold the FD over here and only shipped 1000 a year, that you could compare that car to a Ferrari?
Even if Mazda sent over 1000 a year after 96, they would have had trouble selling the FD. I don't get why people think it was so great, when nobody bought it.
11-12-2007, 07:49 PM
#127
The 8 is fun; no doubts about that. And despite the crappy gas mileage and lack of engine grunt that it's competators love to rub in our faces, I still the RX-8 is the best damn sports car in it's price range. Car and Driver magazine knows it. Top Gear knows it. Road & Track knows it. The RX-8 is the best damn sports car one can buy right now...
...but it's not a legend.
...but it's not a legend.
11-12-2007, 07:59 PM
#128
Wow... This thread didn't take very long to become a pissing contest...
I'll just say this, and hopefully we can just agree with it to some degree and drop the bullshit arguing and get back to intelligent critisizm.
When you look at the big picture, and view these cars for what they were when they were first released, and what their competators were, it's easy to see that the RX-8 falls short of the legacy that the RX-7 started.
The 2nd gen turbo 7 was designed to compete with Porsches while not costing anywhere near as much, and it succeeded. It was faster, it handled better, and it was cheaper. They were a blast to drive, they handled amazingly, and they were - for the most part - reliable. They were also beautiful in design, and their body style didn't start to look "outdated" until around the new millenium. It was designed to accomplish only a few things, but it accomplished much more with flying colors, and withstood the test of time.
The 3rd gen was meant to be a *****-to-the-wall performance machine. Something that would look, handle, and scream like a high-performance car. Much like it's predecessor, it did so with flying colors. Despite being a 14-year-old Mazda it's still in the A-class for autocross. It didn't just whoop the *** of other sports cars during it's 3-year production lifetime, it spanked all competition after death, through afterlife, into it's second coming, and seems to have it's eyes set somewhere beyond the horizon of the post-apocalyptic future. No car maker has managed to produce something with the all-around excellence that the RX-7 offers in 14 years! FOURTEEN FREAKIN YEARS!!
I'm sorry, but as much as I prefer my 8, I refuse to believe that it holds a candle to the GOD that is the RX-7. The 8 is fun; no doubts about that. And despite the crappy gas mileage and lack of engine grunt that it's competators love to rub in our faces, I still the RX-8 is the best damn sports car in it's price range. Car and Driver magazine knows it. Top Gear knows it. Road & Track knows it. The RX-8 is the best damn sports car one can buy right now...
...but it's not a legend.
In 14 years, the RX-8 will not be sought after by every 16-year-old bolt-on-boy-wonder Rice & Rediculous fan.
In 14 years, the RX-8 will not boast stats that scoff at modern sports cars accomplishments.
In 14 years, the RX-8 will not be home to a forum that has a new "Hay u gUyZ! Im thikning Of gETtinG OnE!!111" thread every other day.
In 14 years, the RX-8 will not be placed in the same autocross class as most modern sports cars.
In 14 years, the RX-8 will not be reveared as one of the most amazing cars to roll off of Mazda's assebly line.
I'm sorry, but the RX-7 rapes the RX-8's face off in every category. Yes, I know the FD sucks more than a black hole of suck in terms of reliability. But you know what, it's still considered a god among men. Saying the 8 is better than the 7 because it breaks alot is like saying the DeLorean is a crappy car because it breaks alot. It's a legend - it scores so high on the scale of awesomeness that reliability no longer matters! If RX-8s needed a new engine every 40,000 miles, NO ONE would buy them.
If anything the RX-7's "gotta-have-it" factor despite it's short life span proves that it really is a BETTER car. It simply means that the car is so great that many people brush the maintenance cost off like it's nothing. Now THAT is a hell of a ******* car!
[/$0.02]
I'll just say this, and hopefully we can just agree with it to some degree and drop the bullshit arguing and get back to intelligent critisizm.
When you look at the big picture, and view these cars for what they were when they were first released, and what their competators were, it's easy to see that the RX-8 falls short of the legacy that the RX-7 started.
The 2nd gen turbo 7 was designed to compete with Porsches while not costing anywhere near as much, and it succeeded. It was faster, it handled better, and it was cheaper. They were a blast to drive, they handled amazingly, and they were - for the most part - reliable. They were also beautiful in design, and their body style didn't start to look "outdated" until around the new millenium. It was designed to accomplish only a few things, but it accomplished much more with flying colors, and withstood the test of time.
The 3rd gen was meant to be a *****-to-the-wall performance machine. Something that would look, handle, and scream like a high-performance car. Much like it's predecessor, it did so with flying colors. Despite being a 14-year-old Mazda it's still in the A-class for autocross. It didn't just whoop the *** of other sports cars during it's 3-year production lifetime, it spanked all competition after death, through afterlife, into it's second coming, and seems to have it's eyes set somewhere beyond the horizon of the post-apocalyptic future. No car maker has managed to produce something with the all-around excellence that the RX-7 offers in 14 years! FOURTEEN FREAKIN YEARS!!
I'm sorry, but as much as I prefer my 8, I refuse to believe that it holds a candle to the GOD that is the RX-7. The 8 is fun; no doubts about that. And despite the crappy gas mileage and lack of engine grunt that it's competators love to rub in our faces, I still the RX-8 is the best damn sports car in it's price range. Car and Driver magazine knows it. Top Gear knows it. Road & Track knows it. The RX-8 is the best damn sports car one can buy right now...
...but it's not a legend.
In 14 years, the RX-8 will not be sought after by every 16-year-old bolt-on-boy-wonder Rice & Rediculous fan.
In 14 years, the RX-8 will not boast stats that scoff at modern sports cars accomplishments.
In 14 years, the RX-8 will not be home to a forum that has a new "Hay u gUyZ! Im thikning Of gETtinG OnE!!111" thread every other day.
In 14 years, the RX-8 will not be placed in the same autocross class as most modern sports cars.
In 14 years, the RX-8 will not be reveared as one of the most amazing cars to roll off of Mazda's assebly line.
I'm sorry, but the RX-7 rapes the RX-8's face off in every category. Yes, I know the FD sucks more than a black hole of suck in terms of reliability. But you know what, it's still considered a god among men. Saying the 8 is better than the 7 because it breaks alot is like saying the DeLorean is a crappy car because it breaks alot. It's a legend - it scores so high on the scale of awesomeness that reliability no longer matters! If RX-8s needed a new engine every 40,000 miles, NO ONE would buy them.
If anything the RX-7's "gotta-have-it" factor despite it's short life span proves that it really is a BETTER car. It simply means that the car is so great that many people brush the maintenance cost off like it's nothing. Now THAT is a hell of a ******* car!
[/$0.02]
11-12-2007, 08:10 PM
#129
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A lot of people have mentioned reliability and the advancements made over the last 15 years or so. Considering the reliability issues of the twin turbo, wouldn't you think that over 15 years they could have made it more reliable? I would think they could do it, but maybe I'm wrong. The 8 wouldn't even have to have a twin turbo, maybe just one to give it more low end. It surprises me that they can't seem to do this...or is it just that Mazda doesn't want to do it?
11-12-2007, 08:31 PM
#130
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The FD is SS class stock, not A class. That may change for 2008, but 2007 it was defiantely SS.
http://www.scca.com/documents/Solo%2...ionsbymake.pdf
Page 7
11-12-2007, 08:39 PM
#131
A lot of people have mentioned reliability and the advancements made over the last 15 years or so. Considering the reliability issues of the twin turbo, wouldn't you think that over 15 years they could have made it more reliable? I would think they could do it, but maybe I'm wrong. The 8 wouldn't even have to have a twin turbo, maybe just one to give it more low end. It surprises me that they can't seem to do this...or is it just that Mazda doesn't want to do it?
11-12-2007, 09:04 PM
#132
Yet another may point out how the Miata (and its subsequent record sales) revitalized the classic roadster segment and how everybody else copied their formula.
The 3rd gen's achievement should not be downplayed, yet it doesn't seem to garner the massive respect it deserves except for those tiny factions "in the know". Kind of sad, but yet, a secret reserved for the select few in a way.
11-12-2007, 09:41 PM
#133
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I gotta say, I don't really see the point to this thread. I'd venture to guess most of the people that post here bought their RX-8's for more than the cost of a low-mileage, good-condition RX-7 ($15000$-20000). So asking everyone on RX8Club.com if they think the RX-7 is better... well, they sort of already voted with their wallet. Now it's a pissing match, because I'm sure there's a thread over on the 7 forum with everyone saying "omg rx8s r slo" and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before everyone over here starts saying "omg 7s dont run lol." Count me out.
The RX-7 is not inherently better because it has superior performance, and the RX-8 is not inherently better because it seats four. Whatever car fits your needs like you need it to is the better car for you.
Personally, would I love an FD? Hell yes. Would I love to keep up with the maintenance? Not so much. So when I was looking for a car, the RX-8 was the better car because I don't yet have the money or the know-how (or a daily driver/cargo hauler) to support a 7.
The RX-7 is not inherently better because it has superior performance, and the RX-8 is not inherently better because it seats four. Whatever car fits your needs like you need it to is the better car for you.
Personally, would I love an FD? Hell yes. Would I love to keep up with the maintenance? Not so much. So when I was looking for a car, the RX-8 was the better car because I don't yet have the money or the know-how (or a daily driver/cargo hauler) to support a 7.
Last edited by Rootski; 11-12-2007 at 09:45 PM.
11-12-2007, 09:50 PM
#134
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Some may argue that their greatest achievement is capturing the biggest sports car race in 1991, and with an underpowered engine to boot. Still the first and only Japanese company to do so.
Yet another may point out how the Miata (and its subsequent record sales) revitalized the classic roadster segment and how everybody else copied their formula.
The 3rd gen's achievement should not be downplayed, yet it doesn't seem to garner the massive respect it deserves except for those tiny factions "in the know". Kind of sad, but yet, a secret reserved for the select few in a way.
Yet another may point out how the Miata (and its subsequent record sales) revitalized the classic roadster segment and how everybody else copied their formula.
The 3rd gen's achievement should not be downplayed, yet it doesn't seem to garner the massive respect it deserves except for those tiny factions "in the know". Kind of sad, but yet, a secret reserved for the select few in a way.
But you're right. Only enthusiasts have any idea what the FD truly is. Others just see it as some 90's sports car. Those same people see an RX8 and also have no idea what it is, they just think it's some awesome exotic (in my mind they're right). I have people come up to me WEEKLY and ask about my 8 or pull up to me in the street slack-jawed and ask what kind of car I have.
The FD and every RX7 to some extent, is a legend, the 8 will go down as a "cool and quirky" sports car. But one thing is for sure, it will always be just as rare!
11-12-2007, 10:14 PM
#135
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And the 7 is a looker, but the 8's prettier in my opinion.
Last edited by Rootski; 11-12-2007 at 10:19 PM.
11-12-2007, 10:29 PM
#136
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And why is that, exactly? What do you think is the inherent flaw in the 8 that prevents it from ever matching its older brother? The "legendary" RX-7's are the heavily modified ones, and the RX-8 is no less capable of rivaling it in performance given the same going-over. Going single-turbo on a 7 is not somehow easier and less complicated than putting a turbo on an 8, and the 8's chassis is stiffer and, in my opinion, could possibly be made to handle even better. The only real disadvantage is weight, but a base 8 isn't all that much heavier than a 7 when you really crunch the numbers (i mean, the difference could possibly, though rarely, be offset with a fat driver). The 7 was more a performer stock, that is for sure, but when money and mods come into the equation the line starts to blur.
And the 7 is a looker, but the 8's prettier in my opinion.
And the 7 is a looker, but the 8's prettier in my opinion.
11-12-2007, 10:39 PM
#137
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"massive" power? It was rated at only 15 more horses than an 8, and it took two turbos (that the 8 doesn't have) to do it... and if you can find a stock 7, that's the power it made 14 years ago.
It does have character, though, I'll give you that, but I think the 8 does too. Give it time.
It does have character, though, I'll give you that, but I think the 8 does too. Give it time.
11-12-2007, 10:51 PM
#138
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Hindsight RX-7 vs Rx-8 which is or was the better Car? Theres enough data on each to state which is the better car comparing over all performance, style and practicality?
What would like off either to make your choice primo in your mind? I think I'd take the turbo charged rotory with no doubt of the 7 and develop it for the 8!!!
Which handled the best? We already know which was the fastest.
What would like off either to make your choice primo in your mind? I think I'd take the turbo charged rotory with no doubt of the 7 and develop it for the 8!!!
Which handled the best? We already know which was the fastest.
11-13-2007, 01:06 AM
#139
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For a sports car enthusiast (not someone that just wants to hit the go pedal and feel oooomph), the RX-8 is the best offering in it's price range by far in my opinion. Mazda has made it possible for me to own a reliable daily driven rotary for $2,500 down and $330 / month. Thank you Mazda!
My single-turbo FD on the other hand is still what I consider to be the best sports car I've ever owned or ever driven. Without having owned an FD I never would have truly understood how someone could buy a car and spend hundrends of dollars a month on maintaining it and still consider themselves lucky to have owned it. There's something about the FD that makes you fall in love and that's undeniable...the 8 tries hard but just doesn't deliver in that area.
My single-turbo FD on the other hand is still what I consider to be the best sports car I've ever owned or ever driven. Without having owned an FD I never would have truly understood how someone could buy a car and spend hundrends of dollars a month on maintaining it and still consider themselves lucky to have owned it. There's something about the FD that makes you fall in love and that's undeniable...the 8 tries hard but just doesn't deliver in that area.
11-13-2007, 02:16 AM
#140
Hindsight RX-7 vs Rx-8 which is or was the better Car? Theres enough data on each to state which is the better car comparing over all performance, style and practicality?
What would like off either to make your choice primo in your mind? I think I'd take the turbo charged rotory with no doubt of the 7 and develop it for the 8!!!
Which handled the best? We already know which was the fastest.
What would like off either to make your choice primo in your mind? I think I'd take the turbo charged rotory with no doubt of the 7 and develop it for the 8!!!
Which handled the best? We already know which was the fastest.
performance=FD
style=subjective
practicality=Rx8
the fd is a great ***** to the wall sports car and with that you sacrifice practicality(ie repairs/2 seats/ rougher ride/ect.). the rx8 is a great sports car that is more practical at the expense of pure performance(less power but also less repairs/4 seats=more overall weight/ect.)
neither car is obviously better, they are built for different goals. the rx8 was never meant to be that all out sports car to take off where the fd left, it instead provides a practical 4 seated sports car to see if the rotary could sell.
just wait till we get the 16x in a new car.
11-13-2007, 02:25 AM
#141
Uncontrollable drifter
Unfortunately I must also reply, after having an FD for 10.5 years, and after owning a 8 for the last three years, I must say the 8 ia a PIECE OF ****! It's not a true sports car like the FD IS (notice I said IS not was).
11-13-2007, 07:12 AM
#142
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Okay lets stop there... you are probably too young to remember, but the non turbo 88 GTU was considered a better car than the TurboII. Road and Track compared the 88 GTU to the 88 10th AE Turbo, and called the 88 GTU the real 10th Anniversary edition. The non turbo RX-7... not the Turbo.
See there is more to a sports car than just power. The Miata has proven that over and over.
See there is more to a sports car than just power. The Miata has proven that over and over.
Again that statement shows how mis-guided you are on this issue. Power does not define a sports car. If it did, Mazda wouldn't have sold 750,000 miata's (the car that really replaced the RX-7 as Mazdas lower priced, volume sports car).
Power means nothing. It is the whole package. The RX-8 is great for that, it is a well balanced chassis that has a perfect power ratio. A radically better suspension for the street, than the FD (which really didn't have that much more compliant suspension than the FC). The fact that you don't get that power and body balance thing...rules out any further replies on this to you. Next thing you'll be saying is you want a V8 in a new RX-7.
Power means nothing. It is the whole package. The RX-8 is great for that, it is a well balanced chassis that has a perfect power ratio. A radically better suspension for the street, than the FD (which really didn't have that much more compliant suspension than the FC). The fact that you don't get that power and body balance thing...rules out any further replies on this to you. Next thing you'll be saying is you want a V8 in a new RX-7.
Also, No, the RX7 shouldn't have a v8, a turboed rotary is what belongs in that car.
And people that say the FE is slow... they are just clueless. They probably have not really driven a FE. Because on the mountain roads, my stock engined FE is faster than TII's and as fast (or faster) as any slightly modded FD I have run into. This has been proven over and over, and I consistently get asked at the end of a mountain or highway run... "wow, the RX-8 is a lot faster than I thought, what have you done to it?" Done nothing... its stock. This is from tweaked TII's making 250hp on the dyno or FD's with singles. Of course on the last run to 7 stock, my '8 was the one that everyone climbed into when their RX-7 broke down on the side of the road, and we had to drive the FE the rest of the way. They stopped teasing me about having rear doors after that.
Secondly, I have driven the RX8, I've actually even driven a turboed RX8. Guess what, the turbo one was leaps and bounds more fun to drive and actually had a little bit of power behind it but I got out of the car thinking, hey this would be a nice daily driver, not this a great sports car.
So the FD sold today would be $60-$70K... it would have the same problem. It would be overpriced for what you get and its sales would tank. Same price as a GT-R, (yet even the outdated 16 year old FD looks better than the new GT-R) or IS-F, or Cayman and $10Kmore than a M3. Yeah,
a modern FD would sell well. About as well as it did the first time.
a modern FD would sell well. About as well as it did the first time.Normally when a company release a 60K+ sports car they know the sales will be limited and its more of a car to show of to the industry about how great they are and what they can do with their technology. Guess what, the FD did that.
Plus since alot of people want a new FD they might pay that since all the cars you mentioned above have alot of people waiting on them, except maybe the Cayman.
11-13-2007, 09:49 AM
#144
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I'm curious, Rootski. You've never driven or ridden in an FD RX-7, have you?
Also, you guys realize the RX-7 came with 330hp stock for the late model 99-02s, right? You're talking about marginal gains in the 10 years between the last RX-7 and the first RX-8 in America, but you don't realize in Japan they made a boatload more power in the later years. You also probably fail to realize they came with other upgrades. But just talking strictly about the engine, the highest powered RX-7 made 98HP more than the MSP, and did so with a car that weighed 80lbs less than the lightest USDM RX-7.
Also, you guys realize the RX-7 came with 330hp stock for the late model 99-02s, right? You're talking about marginal gains in the 10 years between the last RX-7 and the first RX-8 in America, but you don't realize in Japan they made a boatload more power in the later years. You also probably fail to realize they came with other upgrades. But just talking strictly about the engine, the highest powered RX-7 made 98HP more than the MSP, and did so with a car that weighed 80lbs less than the lightest USDM RX-7.
11-13-2007, 10:31 AM
#145
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No, I haven't been in an FD (not a moving one, anyway). As I said earlier I love FD's and I think it'd be a blast to have one, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me that it's some sort of mystical chariot from God. It's a fast car, yeah, but it's not THE fastest and my point is, while it's faster than an 8, the gap is probably not as wide as you think. There are guys on this forum running quarter faster than stock 7's with nothing but an $800 55-shot nitrous kit. Put that much into your average 7 and you might have it running again. But now we're coming dangerously close to bench racing and ricer math. I don't have a nitrous setup any more than you have an '02 RX-7 with the 330hp engine. By the way, thank you for pointing those out though they're pretty irrelevant since they were only sold in Japan. The Japanese model RX-8 has 250hp but I hardly see how that matters to us here in the USA.
11-13-2007, 10:32 AM
#146
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Some of you guys appear to be in denial. Don't get me wrong, I've been contemplating getting an RX-8 for my winter car, because I can't stand driving my damn Buick on rainy days/winter weather (don't take that as an insult, I really do just want a nice car that I can drive in the winter). Every time I mention that to someone, they say "Why would you want one of those? Those things are UGLY!" Girls, guys, whatever, they all believe the same thing. Hell, I have a hard time explaining to girls why I even put my FD away for the winter, they just don't seem to grasp the idea of having two cars to protect one.
11-13-2007, 10:35 AM
#147
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Are you sure you're saying "I'm thinking of buying a Mazda RX-8" and not "I'm thinking about buying a Subaru Tribeca"?
And I am NOT buying your argument that EVERY person you've met thinks RX-8's are ugly.
And I am NOT buying your argument that EVERY person you've met thinks RX-8's are ugly.
11-13-2007, 10:42 AM
#149
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I don't know what to tell you... believe it or don't believe it, but thats what people tell me. While I disagree with them and personally like them a lot, it doesn't even hold a candle to my FD...
11-13-2007, 10:47 AM
#150
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Hahahaha... all I see are a bunch of insecure FD owners coming in to make a point about their 15 year old car. hahahah.... shouldn't you be driving and enjoying the rx-7? Oh wait, it's sitting on a puddle thanks to blown seals again? 
No No No... must be waiting for replacement hoses.
RX-7s (except for the pop-up) are exceptionally beautiful cars. Unfortunately its owners have an uncanny talent in destroying its clean lines with kamikaze bodykits and park bench wings. That is just too bad. They go for quite cheap on Craigslist here. Nobody seems to buy them except high school kids that watched one too many F&F franchises. Reminds me of the Eagle Talons/Eclipse.
When I was out looking for a replacement FC GXL, I asked my local rotary indie mechanic about the FD and he told me that he won't want one even if it's free. But they are great for business, their owners help put his kids through college. True story!
No No No... must be waiting for replacement hoses. RX-7s (except for the pop-up) are exceptionally beautiful cars. Unfortunately its owners have an uncanny talent in destroying its clean lines with kamikaze bodykits and park bench wings. That is just too bad. They go for quite cheap on Craigslist here. Nobody seems to buy them except high school kids that watched one too many F&F franchises. Reminds me of the Eagle Talons/Eclipse.
When I was out looking for a replacement FC GXL, I asked my local rotary indie mechanic about the FD and he told me that he won't want one even if it's free. But they are great for business, their owners help put his kids through college. True story!
Last edited by delhi; 11-13-2007 at 10:51 AM.