Ike

It handles great and it has sufficient acceleration, but it's not really fast by modern sportscar standards, it's pretty average. Especially on the streets where you're going to do nothing but spin the tires like mad if you try an 8k launch. There is a 25K Saturn coming out soon that will be 300hp, the first 04 SRT-4 dyno produced 240+ hp and 270 torque to the wheels, the WRX is faster, the WRX STi is faster, the EVO is faster, the new TL is asfast, the 3.5 Altima is faster, the RSX Type S and GTI are damn close, the American V8 cars are faster, Forester XT, S2K, 350Z, G35... There are also a lot of cars in the works that will be out in the next year that will out accelerate the RX-8. Most of those cars have quite a bit more torque as well, but then again many of them do not handle as well as the RX-8.

Bringing up mods is silly because you can mod any car, and with all the turbo cars around they can get much better gains for a lot less money than you will be able to with the 8. I also have yet to see anyone come close to the Magazine numbers in the 1/4, and lets face it, they were pre production cars that the mags tested. The RX-8 is a great overall package and I'm sure almost all of you are more than happy with the performance, but lets face facts that's it's not fast by modern sportscar standards, it average or even below average.

Ike

Rick

You did not last very long.

Ike

I know... (hangs head in shame) but I was responding to other people so it doesn't really count... does it? :p

Broker73

do you own an 8?...if not why post here?. Funny how you think a 0-60 time in 6secs is slow?.. even the G35 got a 6.1sec 0-60, and they used a 4k launch. You seem very bent out of shape over the WRX or whatever, but give me a break by saying the 8 is not fast by modern sports car standards. But trying to explain it to guys like you is a lost cause.
:o

I have seen 14.8 times on this thread by members. Close to tested times. The closest comparison for the 8 is the G35, and they have close to Identical performance numbers.

And by saying there are alot of cars in the works that will out perform.?? well of course. What class, what price, what style.

And by the way, being a rotary with the high rev limit, you can do little mods and get big results. A fuel control system is being produced by an individual on this thread now, and we are looking at 25hp. I think the 8 with that kind of extra pop will be faster than the G35, and a host of others. The Honda s2000 is a close comparison, and it has a similar power band. And you can't compare the 350Z to the 8, 2 different cars. but look at the numers 350 0-60 in 5.6 and the 8 does it in 6...not much difference. But I could talk till I am blue in the face, and you will try to blow smoke and make wild comparisons. WRX and EVO? Not even in the same class.? yes faster, but such a cross comparison it makes no sense? Anyway, with an additional 25hp, the s2000, and G35, will be left behind. And with that extra power, it could keep pace with the 350Z, but the torque of that car makes good power down low.

Broker73

sorry, here are the facts, the performance of the G35 and the 8 STOCK are almost identical, except handling which goes to the 8

Enough said

Ike

I never said it was slow, I said it was average or maybe even below average. With your extra 25 hp mod you will not be leaving behind any G35s, by the way. Lastly the G35 beats the RX-8 0-130 by about 7 seconds, just count in your head and think about how many cars lengths that might be, it's not pretty. Comparing stock cars to modded cars is silly, other people can mod as well you know. Oh and many of them will get much more than 25 chp from an ECU mod. Did the fact that those cars I listed are about as fast or faster than the 8 bother you that much? Sorry for the facts again, I keep forgetting how much some of you despise them.

By the way Broker, I think you broke the record for fewest periods in one of your posts ever, is that really you or did someone confiscate your user name? :p

Ike

Ike

Nope, think again and read above. Also most of the traps people are getting on the production cars are around 92, 93, the G35 traps around 100, that's a big difference.

Ike

If it makes you feel any better you should be able to take a stock WRX on a highway roll since the AWD eats up some HP and 4th and 5th gear are like overdrive :D

Broker73

you really believe the 8 with an extra 25 hp will not be leaving behind any G35's?. If we are sticking to facts, how can that be? if the performance numbers are so close stock for both cars, with 25 more pops under the hood, it only makes sense the 8 would walk away.
But maybe you are an expert on the G35 to?:D
Do you even own an 8?. or looked at the performance numbers and compared them to similar cars?. and Read all the reports from Europe to Na. They just had another one done in Europe, comparing the 8 to the new VW R. And it was not much slower than a car with more torque and AWD.
You keep talking about facts, yet you seem to be finding ways to make a poor reflection on the 8?
Road and Track has the 8 faster in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile than the G35. Maybe you should go to a G35 forum and let everyone know there car is below average:o
The WRX or EVO, and lets even throw in the Mustang SVT, or how about the M3? Yes all faster. OK you win, and I guess this means you know better than most reviews, and can set the bar as far as sports car performance. You must not own the car, so why waist your time here?

Broker73

oh, ok, so now all of a sudden, you are pulling out 1/4mile times from "other people"? for the G35.

So they are getting better results than every review done?. OK:o
Lost cause

Broker73

since we are sticking to facts. But I am sure you'll find a way to pick this apart to.




Mazda RX-8 v VW Golf R32


few new cars have laid it on the line as frankly as the Mazda RX-8. It's tempting to think of it as a cautious diffuser of ideas, meticulously smudging the lines between saloon and coupe, purist sports car and executive smoothie. Its pitch smacks of contrived ambiguity. But it might just be one of the great doubt-free zones of recent times. If you buy an RX-8 you're not buying some bogus genre-bender, the reasoning goes, but an alternative mindset. Leave the ludicrous attribute-fusing to the 'motro' and oh-so 'spafe' Nissan Micra, the RX-8 really is radical: aesthetically, conceptually and propulsively.

And that's a stroke of genius straight off. The RX-8 isn't just the world's only rotary-engined car, it has no direct rivals at all. Does this make it an outcast? In a sense it does. But it also means it will be gatecrashing some of the best parties in town. Few BMW 325i drivers can have given a thought to what it would take to get them inside a Mazda showroom. They will now. Audi TT owners, too. And aspiring Nissan 350Z pilots. Even the hardcore hot hatch brigade. The RX-8 isn't mucho-macho, but how can you ignore 228bhp at 8200rpm, a 9400rpm red-line, a shape that makes even the Alfa 147 GTA's look straight-laced, and backward opening rear doors with more kerbside theatre than a row of Merc SLs in hood stow mode? You can't. And, at £22,000 for this, the more powerful of the two models, you shouldn't.

As we hinted at end of our megahatch showdown back in March, there's so much going on with the RX-8 it will probably star in a cross-genre span of group tests after it goes on sale over here in October. But, for us, it's pretty obvious where you start: with VW's Golf R32. Not only is the R32 the megahatch we like the most but, as with the Mazda, so much more than a one-trick pony.

Four-wheel drive projects its appeal deep into Audi quattro territory (damagingly for Audi because it outhandles the S3), its Phaeton-sourced 3.2-litre V6 delivers senior exec smoothness and flexibility in addition to heavy-duty stonk. And, of course, being a Golf guarantees oodles of sensible stuff to lubricate the mechanics of everyday motoring. It might not be the fastest or hardest of its type, but it is the most deftly multi-faceted and multi-talented. And that, along with its highly competitive £22,340 price, makes it a potent foil for the do-it-all Mazda.

It's the contrasts as well as the similarities that fascinate. Where the two come closest is in headline power, claimed performance and price. The Mazda's tiny 1308cc normally-aspirated twin-rotor Renesis engine (shorthand for rotary re-genesis) trails the Golf's snugly shoehorned 3179cc, 24-valve, V6 by just 9bhp, but needs to have wound on another 2000 revs before it's realised. The svelter build is the 1394kg RX-8's, though, handing it a power/weight ratio advantage of 166bhp/ton to the 1512kg Golf's 159bhp/ton. Perhaps more tellingly, the updated Wankel engine is absolutely blitzed for torque by the German car, developing its modest 156lb ft at a frenzied 5500rpm whereas the R32's thumping 236lb ft is on call at just 2800rpm.

Both have six-speed gearboxes with sprint-orientated gearing - understandably so in the Mazda's case to compensate for the paucity of low-speed grunt but with the R32 the extra ratio seems designed more to massage the already punchy demeanour of the barrel-chested V6.

Given all of which, they're surprisingly close over the classic benchmark sprint. Mazda claims 0-62mph in 6.4sec for the RX-8 which, if confirmed, will more than match the 6.4sec 0-60mph time we recorded for the Golf, though this was in the wet. Call it a draw. It's probably just as well factory in-gear figures for the Mazda aren't available; we can't help thinking they'd be murdered by the Golf which, picking just one example, tears through the 50-70mph fourth gear increment in 5.8sec. Flat-out on the autobahn, too, the Mazda's driver would have to watch the Golf's chunky rump and quad exhausts gradually disappear over the horizon: 146 plays 154mph.

But, as we've discovered so often, test track acceleration stats and the real world aren't the same place. Nor should figures be the defining factor in this clash. The real value of these cars is first and foremost embedded in what they do for the driver's feelgood receptors and satisfaction glands.

On the way from Bologna airport to our hotel by the sea in Rimini, it becomes clear that in any case there's not much in it for straight-line pace. On the autostrada, the Golf's higher claimed top speed gives it no appreciable edge in the 100-130mph zone. And on country roads, the Mazda's anticipated performance deficit seems more modest still. Partly this is due to the perfect matching of engine characteristics and the ratios of its six-speed gearbox. First and second spin up enough turbine-smooth thrust to slingshot the RX-8 right into contention with the raucous R32, despite the all-drive Teuton's bludgeoning torque and from-rest traction advantage, while third, fourth and fifth sustain a seductively silky surge that reaches out for the far side of 130mph. Settled in sixth, the almost electric hum of engine note merging with the modest levels of wind rush and road roar, it makes a superbly chilled cruiser.

Supporting this is terrific straight-line stability and a special kind of finely-tuned suppleness that smooths away fatigue along with the bumps, dips and ruts. This is not unconnected with the Mazda's 50:50 weight distribution and the fact that its twin-rotor motor is set so far back in the engine bay, well behind the front axle. The Golf's good for the long haul, too, but its suspension's more fidgety than the Mazda's and its engine considerably more vocal. It's a more sonorous, power-drenched sound, too, but the Golf simply doesn't have the serene mien or extraordinary, arrow-like security of the Japanese car.

Both cars have great gearshifts, though: low effort, rigidly gated and precise. The RX-8's is marginally notchier and, because of the sheer necessity to hook up the rotary engine's top end charge and keep it flowing, it gets more grief when you're going for it. Wringing maximum effort out of the R32 is less physically interactive, but its big V6's vivid throttle response and fat mid-band performance still has more built-in excitement.

On the squirling hillside roads, fifty or so miles in from the coast, the grunt/grip equations are tellingly resolved. The Golf plants the larger acreage of sticky, ZR-rated rubber on the road, though both cars' tyres are the same 18in diameter. Super-stiff sidewalls, Haldex torque-apportioning four-wheel drive and sophisticated traction control systems breeze the responsibility of managing the power and torque on tap in the R32. In normal fast motoring, you never get even the whiff of an impression that the rear tyres are wrestling with those at the front over which should lead the way.

By and large, though, the Golf is outclassed when it comes to changing direction. Although the Mazda can't match the R32's remarkable grip and traction out of tight bends, it feels the more transparent, fluent and incisive car to drive through random twists, with crisper responses and a more intimate sense of control. The RX-8's power steering is lighter but even more direct than the VW's and brimming with feel, whereas the R32's can occasionally seem a little synthetic behind the reassuring weight at the rim. You really do get the impression that the Mazda's tyres aren't having to work so hard to contain the mass of its engine. It feels beautifully balanced and predictable.

Switch the traction controls off and the contrast between the two cars is intriguing. On extreme uphill hairpins like our photographic corner, the opportunity to generate some slip at the rear works to the RX-8's advantage, effectively neutralising what would be a tendency to understeer. The Golf will slide too, but it was more of a handful on the bumpy photographic bend, failing to settle into a consistent attitude as its four-wheel-drive system constantly scavenged for grip, aggressively shifting torque from one axle to the other. It felt better with the traction control left on. Both machines have impressively strong, progressive braking, though the Golf's ultimate stopping power and pedal feel shade the Mazda's.

Inside, the circular themes and soft, enveloping forms of the RX-8's cabin contrast strikingly with the R32's overtly angular architecture and the overall effect is altogether cosier and more cocooning. Which won't suit everyone, of course. The Golf is the pukka four-seater, the Mazda wings it. We can't imagine anyone wanting to do a long trip in the back of the RX-8 if the R32 was the alternative, no matter how novel the means of entry. That said, the Mazda's rear seats are actually more comfortable. As are its front seats which, while not as aggressively sculpted as the Golf's Recaros, offer just as much support and form part of a more relaxed driving position.

In the end it's a close call. The sophisticated face of superhatchdom as represented by the Golf R32 is a potent force at just over £22K. Too good for Audi's S3, too good for Ford's hardcore Focus RS and too good for Alfa's charismatic 147 GTA. It has real breadth of talent and convincing answers for every road, all weather conditions and a driver's fickle moods. It's powered by a truly muscular powerplant with a musical exhaust note and heavy-hitting delivery. You'd buy this car for the noise its engine makes, the grip and cut of its chassis, the tactile pleasures of its build and finish. It's still the most capable and desirable fast hatch on the planet.

But the RX-8 is sexier. Better looking. Quieter, smoother and more comfortable. Almost as fast. Better balanced. More fun to drive down a truly demanding road. And, perhaps because of all of that, more interesting. No, it doesn't have the Golf's macho bark. Nor its grip and instantly accessible grunt. If you're in a hot hatch frame of mind, it just won't do. But if you believe that the best drivers' cars are not necessarily the quickest, but those that blend dynamics and performance so seamlessly and cohesively that the driving experience is a powerful singularity rather than a collection of dazzling party tricks, the RX-8 hits the sweet spot with uncanny accuracy.

Broker73

? wondering how you came to the conclusion the G35 beast the 8 by 7secs from 0-130?

R & T times

G35 0-100 14.9
RX8 0-100 15.9

OK you win:o

not worth the time. Especially for a guy that posts on a thread where he doesn't even own the car? wow

Broker73

oh, and one more thing, since you seem to throw facts out so wildly
Nissan Altima SE (Manual) from R & T 0-60 6.3 secs (slower than 8)
1/4 mile 14.8 at 96mph (slightly slower than 8)

and yes a hard launch was used. Gee, this seems to refute you claim the Altima is faster? Sorry, just sticking to the facts:D

RussellP

RX-8 been whoopin STi's in auto-x. Theres a clear winner in the handling dep't. Not to mention looks, inside and out.

flip

well said..

Ike

C&D April 2003

RX-8 0-60 = 5.5 0-100 = 14.2 0-130 = 33.5
G35 0-60 = 5.9 0-100 = 15.8 0-130 = 26.8

This is also a pre production RX-8 that did not have the new ECU retune, those are not really the same acceleration are they now?
As for the post of your reviews... I said its a great package and will outhandle many of the cars I mentioned, and I am fully aware that the RX-8 is a great overall package, however there are many cars on the road that will hang with it on the highway or the 1/4 mile, and that was my point.

Ike

RobDickinson

"Hang with it on the highway or 1/4 mile"

Who cares? How often (outside of Germany) do you have the chance to see 100mph, let alone 130mhp?

I regulaly drive at 90mph, but thats in the UK (with 70mph limits) over 100mph is an imidiate ban, no questions, so you dont do it (often or for extended periods).

I know US seems to care about 1/4 mile times and drag racing etc, but this just isnt a feature in the UK.

I've seen , on this forum, a stock US spec RX-8 in auto-x beating STi's (300bhp version) s2000's M3's round tracks.

For straight line, highway driving I care more about noise levels than acceleration, if its 15, or 20, 30 seconds to 130mph it does not matter. Once I'm at my cruising speed (85-90) I'm there for hours - unless theirs trafic and them acceleration matters even less.

On real roads (ones with curves etc) handling is more important than acceleration, unless I'm planing on overtaking, and I wont be doing that to any quick car that doesnt want me to (have you seen b roads in england? you'd have a shock).

renotse

Ike this says it all.

The Golf R32 (like the WRX) is a collection of dazzling party tricks

The RX8 blends dynamics and performance so seamlessly and cohesively that the driving experience is a powerful singularity.

May suggest http://www.wrx.com.au

Skyline Maniac

1) RX-8 with 25hp more might be faster than a G35, it might not..... it's NOT a fact, just a guess on your part. The point is kind of moot though, because you can't really compare stock with modded. A G35 with +25hp vs RX-8 +25hp, which one do you think will win?

2) Magazine numbers: Magazine datas are most useful when they are driven by the same drivers, under the same conditions, at the same location. As far as I know, only 3 of such reports exist: 1. C&D comparison, 2. Best Motoring video, 3) CG Magazine (All three publication results can be found under Media/Publication section) In all of these reviews, the results were pretty clear to me. CG magazine got nearly identical times for the RX-8 vs G35C, but the G35C was an auto and RX-8 was the 250hp manual.

Just facts, now flame away~

Racer X-8

April 2003? Back when the pre-prod's were experiencing sticky intake port valves? The above numbers look like the RX-8 ran out of breath. Not the same acceleration for sure. Gearing & aerodynamic drag coefficient must be in favor of RX-8, right?

Winning

Ike, instead of www.wrx.com.au , try www.wrx.net.au very active forum and friendly members who know their WRX and Sti very well. You will be welcome over there, it's been a while since we have an American WRX owner in our forum.

Buger

Hi IkeWRX,

Are you sure about those numbers?

Brian

Ike

Yes I'm sure, I'm not trying to put down the 8 in the least, though many people seem to be taking it that way. Hell, I hate magazine racing and I've been doing it all over this thread, and there is no street racing talk allowed so bringing that up wouldn't help. I've said a few times in this thread that the RX-8 is a great overall package, but the speed and acceleration numbers are not remarkable at all. That was the only point I was trying to make, so stop trying to show me all these magazine reviews that talk about what a great all around performer the 8 is.

Rob, since you brought it up... the RX-8 C&D tested was louder than many many cars C&D tests when cruising at 70 MPH. Louder than ever the 03 Cobra and G35 they tested alongside the Rx-8. But I like cars that make a little more noise, as long as it's engine and exhaust note

Racer X-8 I've heard this sticky port thing and I'm not so sure what to make of it, maybe the car was having problems and that caused it to peter out in the higher gears, but the 1/4 mile times seem to state otherwise. It would be nice if someone tests a production car soon, so all this pre production car talk can be put to rest.


Ike

Buger

Hi Ike,

I was just asking because I've never seen any RX-8 0-60 times of 5.5 seconds and 0-100 of 14.2 from any magazine.

Are you really sure that you're sure?

Brian

mikeb

ike
he's asking a question