PoorCollegeKid

...and slowly drift out of spec until their recalibrated. No two engines will put out the exact same amount of power. They will be close, very close, but not exactly the same.

What do you use as a real world driving test? Quarter mile ETs and trap speeds all point to 170-180rwhp. A 196rwhp RX8 would be trapping solidly in the upper 90s, not the low to mid 90 range that has been reported on this board. Maybe you have an unusually strong car...

MrWigggles

Using a Escort G-timer and using its raw output g's I was able to calculate how much horsepower the car had definitively.

Using the appropriate math and tests, inertial losses can be calculated fairly easilly, frictional losses can not (many people just say 15% for both combined but that is overly simplistic)

Factoring out everything including inertial losses but excluding frictional losses the car peaked at 225HP at the engine even with a K flash.

The only unknown component, frictional losses, would only be 5.8% to get Mazda's 238HP claim. 5.8% for frictional losses seems very reasonable to me.

By my tests (I build test and measurement equipment including accelerometers for a living), the car has AT LEAST 225HP but I would guess it to be upwards of 240HP.

-Mr. Wigggles

reddragonmd

Im not doubting that there are over 200HP in the motor, but to the WHEELS people are not getting near 200HP. Thats all im saying. When a car only dynos at 170-180WHP, it is NOT making 238 HP at the crank, unless something very serious is leeching power. I dont know enough about the traction control systems or the rx8 PCM yet to say anything educated about if thats effecting the power output or not, but it seems like it could be used as a weak excuse:

Dyno Tuner: Dood your car only dynoed at 170WHP
Owner: Really? wow strange, the car is suppose to have 238HP
Dyno Tuner: Um yea... it doesnt **shows printed out dyno sheet to embarressed owner**
Owner:It MUST be that finiky TC system, mazda says it makes it unusually hard to dyno
Dyno Tuner: you got 170WHP kid

Im a firm believer of road testing and dynos. I dont really care what facts are on paper (i.e. rx8 - 238HP, 0-60 5.9sec - 350z 280HP, 0-60 5.5sec). On paper cars seem alot more balanced and competetive. But whats the point of having those facts, if NO ONE can reproduce them? Has ANYONE taken their 8 to the track and dragged it to a 5.9 or better? Has anyone dynoed their car to find the correct WHP they should have if the car in fact does have 238HP? No... So on paper our cars should keep up with a 350z in a race, but for anyone who has raced one, they know thats sadly not true. Any anyone saying they smoked a 350, or stayed neck and neck with him is lying. Ive been driving a clutch for over 10 years, and know what im doing. And it wasnt even a race. Plus im too afraid of breaking this car to continue dragging it or testing it.

Now i did rough up a 02+ civic si the other night. But on paper those things run what a 15.5?

I keep coming back to the idea that this cars PCM is way to finiky or smart. I dunno. Im not arguing here, just putting my opinion down.

reddragonmd

93rdcurrent

I can appreciate where you are coming from but a little education is in order here. Canzoomer who was the first person (so far as I know) to start working on a piggy back ECU to edit the fuel/air/timing ratios has had his car on the dyno many times. He has noted that the car definately goes into a "limp mode" that has to do with the DSC/TC. When one tire moves independently of the other the car automatically cuts the power to both wheels in order to try and compensate for slippage.

Our ECU or PCM is also designed to figure out our driving habits in order to build a better fuel map. If you drive your car in town and don't excelerate hard or get on the gas regularly then it will note your habit and build your fuel map. For those like me that love to get on it regularly and hit the 9500 beep on a daily basis will get a different fuel map (this may explain why I have consistantly been in the lower range of our gas consumption even when I drive nicey nice ). Mazda did this in order to compete with the EPA standards I'm sure. They figured that some of the owners would drive the car hard and some just wanted a fun commuter. So hence we have the dilema. We are having a difficult time with most of the dynos. I would like to know which dynos the 8 has been tested on and how many people drove the hell out of the car for at least a week prior to testing. Oh and it would be nice if there is a fix for the "limp mode" that we see it posted so that future tests aren't so limited.

reddragonmd

I just want someone to come out with a reliable, effective ECU upgrade or remap, that will bring back all the lost power we seem to have, but not give us a 6MPG fuel consumption even on modest drives.

The canzoomer thing sounds great, but it doesnt sound consistant. Alot of people are reporting different effects and results. In the past ive delt with garret or AMS for ECU upgrades on cars, and those "chips" were very reliable, and effective.

93rdcurrent

I had an ECU upgrade (e-prom) from UPRD on my MR2 and was happy with that. I think CZ has worked out the bugs on his. There were some limitations based on the coil packs and other trial and error stuff. Nothing that has damaged anyones cars or that he hasn't rushed to address. I think CZ has a good product and he stands behind it making sure that his customers are happy. I will be getting at least the stage II and once I get my FI (next summer) I will upgrade to the Stage III and am even thinking about driving up to CZ and let them tune it for me. We'll see. But I have followed CZ for about a year now and like I mentioned above I am pretty impressed with how dedicated he is to getting his product right.

Frank Patrick

After reading all of the posts regarding this issue, having some fun with car at the California Speedway, and my free admission that I know very little about Dynos, ECU/PCM, but having some affiliation with the aforemention-smarter folks then I did "restore to original" OMC-Operative-Memory-Code. This was done by track tech folks, one who also has a modified 8- for the race track only. Seems that, in fact this memory is "developed" from the day you took your first Zoom-zoom, in your 8. The problem is, I did not "zoom-zoom", wanting to take exceptional care over something I had to work very hard for, I "babyed" the car, and as such my dyno scores reflect a low score avg. about 175hp. After a cleared (MC), I got my new score (kind like LSAT) you always score better on your second try, and it came in at a surprising (212 hp). Driving the car home was like driving a diffrent vehicle.

93rdcurrent

Thank you Frank for the post. That confirms at least one of my suspicions. Now can you tell me what they did or what kind of dyno was used to avoid sending the car into "limp mode"?

reddragonmd

How exactly do you "clear" your cars memory so you can start again and essentially reprogram and relearn it?

I know for a fact i babied my car as well, for fear of something breaking :o

dean2900

I like my 8 alot and it is a nice car. I understand about the car learning your driving habits and about limp mode but the car is not 238hp.

My last car was an S2000 which was rated at 240 at the crank. The S2000 was significantly faster and almost the same weight. It put down around 220 at the wheels stock.

The RX-8 is a nice car but Mazda is full of **** with it's 238hp rating. I am sure if you have perfect conditions, etc. However, take a look at almost any other cars HP rating and then look at the dyno. You are going to lose a little to the wheels but not 58hp.

The RX-8 plain and simple does not produce 238hp. If Mazda would have lowered their original 249hp down to 200hp, they knew they would have lost the majority of their buyers. I believe they found some scenario where in theory, the car was producing 238hp but I don't believe it is a realistic view.

The good news is that since this car was detuned, it should be realatively easy to get the HP back up. However, I am staying stock right now until the rights mods come out. I went through the downside of buying a new model car with the stook also. You have to give the aftermarket time.

BTW, in a nearley unrelated question. Is there anyway to turn off the stupid redline warning beep?

Dean

reddragonmd

You have a redline warning beep? Mines never beeped

Frank Patrick

The dyno was done by an experienced tester, using a Talyor (TD-24S with a torrisional Coupling and a single axle cradle), which is all greek to me, but it is what they use. The clearing sequence, appered, to me anyway, very similar to when I watched them do my M-flash. The procedure took all of 5 min, I ask if I could learn how to this, was told yes, but they would have to kill me after, and unless I had about 25K to spend for the equipment, it was a mute point. I was also told, that the car would soon re-learn, my driving habits, and if they remained the same, would see a gradual, but noticeable drop in performance. My qusetion was, why can't I just take the stupid thing out- can not do that either, as it serves multifunctions, (5) to be exact. So I am going to start ripping around once in awile- When question I did not ask- is If it learn your driving stly- can it alos -re-learn and adjust accordinly a new style.

dean2900

All 6 speeds are supposed to have them. It goes off aorund 8500 - 8700 RPMs as you are approaching redline. I usually have my stereo up and just faintely here it. I try to go to let the engine sound be my guide when shifting although it is more difficult on the 8 since the engine seems very even througout the full RPM range.

Dean

Silver_04

This is just a thought. I am new here, and admitedely not extremely knowledgable.

I did however recently read a interesting article that included a interview with Dinan, a well known BMW tuner. He demonstrated to the interviewer a nearly 75 horsepower difference in one his tuned M5's, just by using fan's.

The demo went something like, dyno the car. Way short of what he was selling. Place a large Home Depot fan in front of the car, re dyno it. Something like a 30 + horsepower jump. He then fired up a super large comercial near wind tunnel variety $4000 plus fan, pointed it at the car, and viola. The horsepower he was selling was now present. His point was that modern ECU's knew threw different sensors how fast air was being provided for cooling, intake and such and would make power accordingly. He felt the days of "shade tree" dynoing were coming to a end because providing the proper airflow was going to be too expensive for most small shops.

Is it possible when Mazda says a max output of 238, this is what they mean?

The above mentioned M5 was normally aspirated, so this wasn't a intercooler related increase.

93rdcurrent

dean2900, I am certain that your S2k was putting down something close to 220 hp. I would like to point you into a direction it doesn't seem that you addressed here. Your S2k had more torque than the 8 has. So you will feel it pulling off the line where you won't feel that with your 8. I had to make the same adjustment coming from my M3. I was used to a very strong pulling car through all the rpm ranges. This is not the the case with the 8. There is a peak to the hp and it is up in the rpm range and that is why C&D and R&T both discovered that to make good 0-60 times you had to launch at 7500 rpms. You aren't feeling the hp the same way that you would if it was higher torque in the lower rpms.

I would be willing to bet that I am putting 205 rwhp down and I know that I would smoke most 200 - 240 hp cars going 0-75 mph. The exceptions would be the obvious S2k, Elise, and some other exotics. I haven't been able to find an RSX, Integra, Civic, etc. that with mild mods can keep up. By the time I shift to 3rd I am already at least 1 car length ahead.

dean2900

Yes my stook had more torque but not a ton more. It was under 200lbs stock. The biggest difference was the VTEC. When the S2k hits 6k, it runs like a beast. It is fairly docile under that.

I do see the point you are getting at but I still cannot believe the RX-8 has 239hp or at least that Mazda rated it like most other cars rate their hp. You usually don't see a 25% power loss to the wheels. Mazda now has a history of overrateing their vehicles. I have never been a Miata fan but I rememebr the supposed 150hp Miatas. I think Mazda is too aggressive in their estimates.

I admit I am basing this more on feel than anything else. I have had a lot of sports cars and several cars in the 240 - 300 hp range. The RX-8 feels more like a RSX at 200hp and yes there are numbers to back that up.

Again, I really do like the RX-8. It has everything that I want other than satellite radio and 30-40 hp as built in options. I got my satellite radio so now I am looking for the lost hp

Dean

93rdcurrent

Dean, I will agree that the 8 needs more hp but I have felt that way with just about all of my cars. That's how I ended up with the 575 hp MR2 and putting a Dinan chip and exhaust on my M3. I will be happy with my 8 when it reaches the 350-400 hp range and I get to boost the torque a bit (hello FI). I know we aren't supposed to talk about it here but I have beaten a few RSX's here in town. I am sure that I am a better driver though and that makes a difference. I wish we could turn the driving style function off of our cars but then this is my year-round driver and in a few months I will be facing freezing temps, snow, and ice. Then I won't be driving the car like I stole it (well most of the time anyway, I do like to turn off the DSC/TC and hang it sideways through some corners every now and then... :D ).

dean2900

93,

I agree about all cars need more hp. However, the cars that I believe most people consider when looking at the RX-8 are as follows:

G35
S2000
350z
EVO
WRX

The problem is that the RX-8 is slower by more than a small bit than all of these cars.

Sure it can do good on the track because of the curves but it just seems like almost a no brainer that this car should be putting between 220 - 250hp at the wheels.

This would make the performance similar or better than 4 out of the 5. You aren't going to outrun a EVO VIII but damn those cars are ugly.

The RX-8 honestly won by default for me. The 350z and my S2000 were out because of 2 seats. The EVO, WRX, and STI just do not fit the image for a 30 something professional.

That leaves the G35 which had decent hp but nothing about that car made me say "Wow, this is nice." The RX-8 interior was nicer and the looks of the RX-8 were much better. Now if we can get some get the car mapped to even produce a true 250hp, it would be much better.

Dean

93rdcurrent

I was looking at a similar group of cars but I was serious about the 350z and the '04 M3. The problem with the Z was that it didn't handle as good or take off as fast as I would've wanted and the interior did nothing for me. The M3 was my first choice it had it all, interior room, hp, handling, nav, DSC/TC, etc. but it was almost twice the price ($59k before taxes and licensing for the options I wanted). The 8 had most of what I was after for almost half the price and the it did it with more style than the other cars. The hp I can fix... . CZ's stage II puts down 40 hp to the wheels. If you haven't been following the new developments on his piggyback ECU you may want to check them out now. I think he's getting it down to a secret science now. I know that this will be a good starting point for me. Next summer will be the FI and the stage III for individual tune with a dyno... :D

dean2900

93,

I personally have always thought BMW's are overpriced but that IMO. They are nice cars with good motors (except for Z3s, etc). However, I don't see the bang for the buck factor in Beamers. There reliability has gone up greatly although I still know people with lemons. But then again, that is about the case with any car.

dean2900

I talked to Canzoomer today for about 30 minutes. He is a real bright guy and I respect his opinion. He told me that the car absolutely does not have 239hp. He says it is around 220. He stated it as a fact and says he is 100% sure.

I also emailed Mazda of America and got one I considered a total BS response asking them about their Dyno testing. Below is their response:

<i>Thank you for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you.

In regards to the RX-8, Mazda uses Dyno testing to determine horsepower. Please understand testing is done under strict testing conditions. However, there are too many variables such as engine hood being open, wind flow, humidity, etc., to always extract the same results. Please understand, no manufacturer does Dyno testing at the wheel.

I hope this has helped to clarify any concerns you may have had.
Please let me know if you have any additional questions, as I am always happy to assist!

Have a wonderful day!</i>

93rdcurrent

dean, Glad you had a chance to talk to Maurice. Yes, I think most of us here would agree that he is a prodigy. And I for one am glad that he not only purchased his RX-8 but decided to do something about the hp instead of letting his car go back during the buy-back period. I also respect his opinion about the hp, few people outside of Mazda have done as much testing on the stock cars. Maurice knows his stuff.

dean2900

I am probably going to order his unit and hold off on the canscan for now. He told me that about 2 out of 3 cars get between 10-25hp gain on stage 1 without the tuning.

I am going to give it a try. he is spening most of his time now working on instructions and software to make the tuning more end user friendly.

It does sound like a bit of a pain to tune because the ECU is smart and will adjust to your changes.

Dean

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

what 1/4 mile and ET's??? Most people that posted slower times on this board open by saying "this was the first time at the track..." either ever or with an RX8. It takes a lot of practice to pull off a decent time - an average first time driver is not going to come close to getting everything out of the car. Most of these people are also saying "i'm shifting right before the rev buzzer comes on" or "i finished the run in 4th gear"... no wonder they are running 15's if they are not even going to take the car to the rev limiter.

I got 196rwhp from graphing the acceleration data from my CANScan and then adjusting for drag and weather conditions. I also a few weeks ago beat a WRX pretty handily despite my car being stock, me having a passenger, and the WRX having an exhaust. Hmm... something makes me think I have more then 170rwhp... or maybe WRX's only have 150hp stock

I am tired of people whining on this board that a piece of paper says the car has 170hp and then ignoring the fact that the car IS competitive on a track and with a GOOD driver it can reproduce 14 sec 1/4 mile times... and then when someone provides some data of the car when its not on a dyno stand making the ecu go crazy they give them the old " "

... i'll be quiet now