Rotario

All kidding aside, the Camry and the Solara are very well-built and very nicely engineered cars. Toyota quality (to me) is a couple notches above even Mazda. I've owned 5 Toyotas over the years, so I'm speaking from experience. The Neon doesn't hold a candle, whether in SRT-4 form or not.

Just my $0.02,
Bill

Phlash

I've seen the opposite as well. Goes back to "the driver." We had an 8 in our group at Road Atlanta in December with a "better than average" (to say the least) driver that ate up an srt-4 on that track....quite a show.......that's why I keep paying to go back again and again to these driving and racing schools........"feeeeeeeel the car...beeee the car...":D

Ike

Clearly, by saying the SRT-4 is a very strong engine I'm just trying to stir up ****. That doesn't sound moronic to you? I'll try not to say nice things about cars besides the RX-8 from now on just to make you and the rest of the fanbois happy All you're doing is subscribing to some old stereotypes about american cars and applying it to the SRT-4.

American cars have come a long way in the last 10 years, some of them in fact are some of the most reliable cars on the road. They have also passed by the Europeans as far as reliability goes, that's right you can expect a Ford Focus to have fewer Problems than your BMW or Audi. Also, Chrysler usually ranks about even with Mazda as far as reliability goes, shall we talk about how the RX-8 rates in consumer reports. Or how about we talk about the fact that Mazda ranks behind Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Subaru, and Nissan.

When it comes down to it just about every car on the road is pretty reliable, including the SRT-4 and the RX-8. Just because you love your car (the RX-8) doesn't mean you have to spew nonsense about other cars.

Ike

Most of them will be totalled by then

VRRocket

You know, I've read through what I could stand of this particular thread and have a couple of brief comments:
1. The RX8 is a beautiful car - I own one (me and the bank, but I drive it). I love it as much 15 months after purchase as I did when I bought it
2. I read enough car magazines to know that the 8 would have a difficult time with a lot of sleeper cars out there - anyone want to brag about losing to that Accord V6, Lexus LS430, Subaru Legacy GT, etc.? I doubt it - they are making rather pedestrian sedans extremely powerful today, with performance that can nearly match or exceed the performance of the 8.
3. Think about why you bought your 8 - because it seated 4? Because you could troll for Mustangs and G35's? Handling? Choose your poison, but the 8 was never the fastest car on the market, just a unique package that provides a great combination of a different engine type, seductive looks, great weight distribution/handling, and the ability to take 3 friends with you for a much better than average spirited drive.
4. I'd also like to know why Ike hangs out here - loads of posts, but not a lot to say besides correcting everyone's statistics. It's good to keep people honest, but if you're a member you should at least have some positives to contribute periodically.

Read the SRT forum, then look at ours. The SRT forum is all about KILL KILL KILL and what a bargain they got for their money. Good for them, they got their money's worth. They saw a gunfight, and they appropriately brought the right tool for the job. I think the 8 community is less about kills and more about the entire driving experience - good acceleration, good handling, good looks, nice interior, etc. Racing an SRT is like bringing a knife to a gunfight - you'll likely lose. However, if a total package means anything to you, your purchase of an 8 was not a mistake.

Sorry for the rant.

-=Rowdy=-

You're trying to stir up crap because all you do is come back with a "well, it's got a strong engine". Only for the sole purpose to start crap. I have noticed quite a bit of your posts lately and you post about everything positive about the WRX, EVO or whatever the subject is on and why its so great compared to the 8. As far as spewing nonsense about other cars-get your facts straight. I almost bought an SRT-4 except I could not get past certain aspects of the car. Period. Stating American cars have made a come back does not necessitate quality compared to other cars. The engine is the only part of the SRT-4 that is worth having. I don't care if the handling is great or the brakes are ok. When you put the whole package together, I don't see a long-lasting product.

Ike

I came here because of an interest in the car long before it was released, I liked the community and still like the car so I stayed. I've contributed plenty of positive things to this forum and like to think I'm pretty knowledgeable about cars in general, I don't see how that's not a positive thing. Some people may not like what I have to say but I'm subjective and honest (often blunt) with my posts and will remain that way both here and in real life.

I could have bought an SRT-4 for myself and saved some money just like the RX-8 owners could have. I didn't, simply because it's not the car for me, that doesn't mean that I don't respect it for what it is much like I respect the RX-8 for what it is. I don't feel the need to badmouth it because stock for stock it's faster than my WRX, or because it's a Neon. I think it's pretty remarkable that Dodge put this car out at the pricepoint it did, it's savy and gutsy and I applaude them for that. It's not just some drag car either, they handle rather well and the platform even has some nice racing roots.

The SCCA saw a rise in popularity as a result of the ACR and that car made thousands of people aware of autox and that they could get an inexpensive car and go tear up a parking lot racetrack legally and for little money. Today the SRT-4 is dominating it's class in SCCA Prorally and has also had a very impressive showing at one lap of america. I've seen 10x the number of SRT-4s at local racing events than I have RX-8s, even though according to some of you guys the RX-8 was meant for the twisties and the SRT-4 is just some shitty neon with a big engine. It may not have great amenities or refinement, and it may just be a supped up econobox in your guys eyes, but I see more people using it for sport than any RX-8 owners do their cars, yet I still see people claiming the RX-8 to be the "true" sportscar.
Traditionally most sportscars are rough raw and unrefined, they don't come with navigation, two tone leather, and cute little rotary or piston accents all over the car...

Ike

I came back with it's got a strong engine because of the post I quoted. Find me one post where I say how the WRX or Evo is so great compared to the RX-8. Since I've said these things lately you shouldn't have a problem finding them. I will say bad things about the WRX and Evo just as much as I will the RX-8. Also you tell me to get my facts straight, I'd like you to show me one thing in this post that I've said that is factually wrong.

VRRocket

Ike -
the SRT forums need someone like you...they "one-up" each other so much it's insane, like a drug. First, they get a little taste with an RX8 kill, then it's on to harder stuff, like Cobras and Vettes. Finally they're ready for rehab, with McLaren and Enzo kills. It's hard to tell where the truth ends and the rehab should begin.

For the record Ike, I do appreciate the objectivity you bring to the forum. If someone here begins to get out of line with something like a Corvette kill, you bring out the facts and straighten them out. Maybe I see more of your posts in this type of comparison thread where someone is trashing another vehicle and you're here to set the record straight.
I find myself a little intrigued by the SRT for some reason - monster engine but rental car looks. I like the WRX, EVO, and SRT, but wish that they came up as stand alone cars with no prior histories as they do. If the SRT wasn't based on the same Neon that I've had as a second class rental car, I'd have a bit more respect for them and might entertain owning one. However, unless you're an enthusiast, most people will look at an SRT out of the corner of their eye and say "oh, another neon". Too bad, because it sounds like a pretty awesome straight line experience.

Socr8tes

April MotorTrend, page 24. Unfortunately, while I really hope it is true, the magazines miss the mark sometimes so we'll just have to see...

bmcc49er

Something to ponder as I haven't got into this argument but all the talk about Dodge knowing what target audience to go after makes me think maybe we should be questioning how irresponsible they might have been. Give a little Neon alot of power for cheap to take over the Civic market right of the floor and basically they know they are giving a bunch of young kids alot of power and the majority of buyers would be young adults and teenagers. Practically encouraging racing illegally. You don't think so? How many salesman pitching this little gem went on and on about how quick it is and what cars it could beat? I highly doubt they mentioned much about the track and now you have a forum of young adults bragging about kills.

Blah

Alls I gots to say is--WHO GIVES A RAT'S BEHIND, I luuuuvvvvvzzz my 8 :P

Blah

You have a valid point...my last comment wasn't aimed at yours. Don't want to sound uncaring

Ike

I agree with you about the SRT-4 forums, which is why I stay away... I would go insane over there and my post count would be 1000 within a week and I wouldn't get anywhere :p

The problem with your perception of the WRX/STi and Evo is that they're newer to the US, but that's not the case elsewhere in the world. The Impreza was originally conceived as the succesor to the Legacy in the WRC, the Impreza, WRX, STi was born from a racecar, not the other way around. You just don't really realize it because for years all the US got was the underpowered Subarus. The great thing is you can see that in the street cars, I'm not very mechanically inclined but I can work on my own car because everything is so easy to get to and well thought out. The same ideals that go into the WRX making it possible to change a tranny is 10 minutes is applied to the WRX and I think that's pretty damn cool.

I don't think the WRX/STi/Evo are better cars than the RX-8 for that reason, they're simply different. The above cars suit me, the RX-8 suits you, the SRT-4 suits someone else. It's what's great about being a car enthusiast today, there are so many choices for enthusiasts. 10-15 years ago when I was buying my first car I wanted something I could race since I had grown up racing. My choices were pretty poor, the FD had just come out and was too expensive, as were the 3000gts, Supras, and 300Zs. I tried finding a nice TurboII RX-7 but heard a lot of horror stories and also had a hard time finding one that didn't have a problems. Starion, Conquest, cool cars but they had problems much liek the FC, thought about getting a used E30 M3 since I had raced them before but I wouldn't have been able to afford fixing it. So I ended up in an AWD DSM, it was just about the only good choice for me, I could think of 20 cars that I can afford right now that I'd be happy to own much more than that if you take used cars into consideration.

Ike

I cracks me up how people talk like streetracing is something new to our society. The NHRA exists because the problem of streetracing had become such a problem in the 50s that they decided to make sanctioned events and give people legal tracks to go test out their cars. The muscle cars of the 60s weren't exactly expensive when new and weren't targeted towards middleaged men, it's the same story just a different time period.

bmcc49er

You are correct Ike but does that make it right? I don't think I ever implied street racing is a new thing. More traffic, more power in smaller cars. I have read that board and there is a bunch of kill stories talking about cutting the race short due to traffic. They are encouraging these young adults to take that Neon and challenge people on the street not the track.

scottmhr1

The kids with Civics are funny. There are a couple ar work that spend 3-4K on wheels and a wing to look cool. I recently bought a 94 civic as a beater that is in good condition. They all asked, cool, how are ya gonna pimp it out! yea, and the 8 is my real car, lol. The money pumped into the old civics, and yea, the new srt's as far as value goes is a losing battle. lol, yea, I had the big rear tires and a paint job on the Gremlin when I was 19 too, lol.

markd

Very nice post, VRRocket. I agree with most of your points... except that I actually appreciate Ike's comments on this forum for the most part--well, minus the fact that apparently we disagree on capital punishment, but I'll save that for the Lounge (actually, I won't since I think those discussions are pointless in a forum such as this). For Ike, though, to a certain extent I think there needs to be the understanding that objectivity doesn't necessarily always work on these specific car forums. If we wanted an open view of all other cars, this place would be called carsgenerallyforum.com. But we're RX8 enthusiasts, and supporting 'the other side' isn't always the best way to foster a dialogue, though admittedly we're more civil than a lot of other forums. I don't know about everyone else, but even if it's true, sometimes I just don't want to be told that there're worthier automotive opponents out there on the road or that I have a jaded misperception of the very car that I own.

Just a thought.

Ike

I don't see it like that. When some does something Illegal with a knife I don't blame the manufacturer of the knife, or even the person that sold them the knife, I simply blame that person. I believe accountability relies on the individual, and with their guardians.

I don't want the products I buy to be policed and restricted because of the moronic actions of others. I can guarantee you the SRT-4 is safer than any of the muscle cars from the 60s, and that's not saying much because the SRT_4 isn't a very safe car. Perhaps you could fault the manufacturer for being irresponsible for not making the Neon safer, but that's about it.

I know a kid with a 95ish 626 that thinks he's some sort of streetracer, he drives like a total moron and his car is slow as snot. I don't think it matters what car it is, the people that are dangerous are going to be dangerous no matter how fast or slow their car is.

The dangers and severe problem of streetracing has been widely overblown by the media as well. Accord to a Harvard study people driving while talking on the cellphone cause more than 10X more deaths per year than Streetracing does.

bmcc49er

I have the same beliefs and if a kid kills himself in one of these I wouldn't look to Dodge for responsibility. All I am saying is I believe Dodge made this car to target younger people full well knowing it would make the perfect racer. While they are not responsible for the end result they knew going in what they were producing and who would use it for what. Money over everything as always.

And your point about dangerous people or going to be dangerous is true but encouraging danger and a forum increasing the encouragement will sway impressionable minds who have a couple of years driving under their belts. Now they have a turbocharged learner car.

Ike

Keep in mind I don't start these topics and post links from other car forums, if you guys never talked about the SRT-4, STi, Evo, etc etc I would rarely have anything to say about them. I visit a lot of different car boards and many of them bash the RX-8, if I post on them I often end up defending the RX-8 if I think someone is misrepresenting it. I don't see any use in bringing the topic over here so threads like this one can happen where people are letting their egos, emotions, and blind loyalty interfere with facts and common sense. words.

If anything I should be pissed because there is a hell of a lot more Subaru bashing going on over there than there is RX-8 bashing, but I could care less because I can evaluate the source and know it's just not worth arguing about.

-=Rowdy=-

Well I can appreciate a non-biased opinion from anyone. As long as it goes both ways and someone can appreciate the positives of any vehicle.

khtm

Can you show me some figures on this? I'm very doubtful as I have a few friends who work high up in Enterprise Rent-A-Car and apparently they regularly have transmission problems with the Focus, across many branches. They said the Mazda 3 has had FAR fewer problems.

dmp

You seem like a Republican! I like that Personal Responsibilty/Accountability.
However faulting ANY company when ppl use their products in an unreasonable mannor is bad. Cars are VERY safe. Drivers, however, are not.

khtm

Well where does it stop, Ike?

You still can't deny that Dodge has marketed the STR-4 to a younger crowd (just go to the Dodge website, it's frickin' obvious). And they know that it's cheap, easily moddable, and has tons of power. So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to assume that kids will use it for street racing. Just look at the insurance rates for these cars.

Now obviously there's got to be some ethics in the automotive industry. In this case, Dodge obviously saw a niche and took advantage of it, FOR PROFIT. As an (extreme) analogy, I bet you and G. W. have a problem with people who develop WMD and not just the people who (can/will) use them.