babylou

Why the hell do I have a US brochure, that I got from Jeff Haas Mazda in Houston, TX only two weeks ago, that clearly states in the specs section;

Horsepower, SAE Net, 250@8500 rpm

This is not some sort of preproduction brochure either. It is the real thing.

BillK

This is true. The folks who say it was "always" 247 HP haven't been around since the early days; it was 250 BHP in all preproduction materials, on the Mazda web site, in all the car magazine reviews, etc. It was only when production commenced that it became 250 PS, or 247 BHP. Now with the recent admission it's 239 BHP.

That's if we're trying to get the sequence of events right. If we're talking about actual performance, of course, big flipping deal. You test drive it and make your decision there unless you're only buying it for bragging rights. If one were looking to drop $30K to be able to say one had more HP than a friend with an S2000, I guess the RX-8's off that person's shopping list. A shame, as they'll never know what they missed...

Boozehound

So any word on the official problem? I don't want to make an uninformed decision - I would think that Mazda owes that to me. I want to know if it was emissions and what fix was applied if it ever made our shores with 247.

I love the car, but now this is an economic decision. Do I take the ~$!500 or do I try to find another one, deal on it, recooperate some of the initial depreciation (1 month and 2500 miles of ownership) and maybe come out ahead. Then I have had the oil light problem once or twice, a few squeaks, and now I get an e-brake light when I go around a corner hard. Let me tell you, every little problem I find is one more ***** in the armor.

I love the car, but don't know what to do. I don't need a service nightmare or something that's going to depreciate much faster if Mazda comes back next year with a honest 247hp renesis. That would shoot my car's value quite nicely. I feel like I need more information from Mazda - buyback specifics, problem description, etc.

Frustrating to read about this on a Sat morning. I think I need to go drive....

msrecant

Dead on! The car performs as advertised and publicized. The only thing wrong are the three numbers on the window sticker.

Last night, before I was aware of Mazda's announcement, I had my RX-8 out on a winding back road. It was awesome! While people were burning up the Internet with rhetoric, my RX-8 was burning up the highway.

That's the nice thing about the RX-8, it can do everything but read.

Prowla

Ha... you're going to rely on your stopwatch to tell u the time u ran?

RX-Nut

Rumors, speculation, propaganda..

Since it seems Mazda is aware of the fact, all I care about right now is an explanation for the loss. Right now we're all clueless as to WHY, and just ranting like madmen.

MAZDA: dont just send us a letter saying "we're sorry, here choose from these options.." Please EXPLAIN the problem. If there EVEN IS a problem? We're all pretty much educated rotary enthusiast folk and can understand a good lot of what you might need to say.

graphicguy

Thanks! Does Mazda have "egg on their face"? Hell, yes!

But let's put it into perspective. From what I can gather, these cars showed up on the dock well within advertised HP numbers. Mazda found out that the car wouldn't meet CA emmissions regs (I wonder if it would have passed elsewhere?) which are pretty severe to begin with. They have to reflash the ECU to pass emmisssions (which explains the "rework" sticker under the hood) at the dock and they believe they are OK because they're still within the 5% "fudge factor". I don't believe there is some large conspiracy going on within Mazda trying to defraud the public. I'd make a bet that whatever person or group within Mazda that's responsible for emmissions testing is now pumping gas somewhere, too.

Some tuner gets hold of one. Pulls the engine, builds a stand, mounts it, dynos it and all sorts of crazy internet rumors/theorists/chatter is the result. Now, Mazda has a PR problem on their hands since internet chatter moves quickly. When, in fact, they thought they had taken care of the problem and were within the normally acceptable HP claim range. They do a quick recovery (the first I heard of this was less than a week ago) by offering money and free service or, as someone else so aptly put it, "satisfaction guaranteed or your money back". Believe me, I've had other cars with lots worse issues and had to fight tooth and nail just to get them to admit the problems, let alone offer to buy it back.

Would I like the car for free? Sure! If they gave me more money would I take it? Hell, yes! Is their offer acceptable to me? Most certainly.

Again, the car I test drove and bought performs the same way today as it did yesterday. Nothing about it has changed. The only thing that's changed is some numbers on a sheet of paper. I don't feel as if I was intentionally misled by Mazda.

If you think about it, you'd either have to spend a lot more money on a higher end sports car to get SIGNIFICANTLY better performance, or you'd have to give up the quality, handling, looks, comfort of the RX8 and get an EVO or WRX. Even new Corvettes or Porsches in my 'burg don't get the stares and the "thumbs-up" that my car has received.

graphicguy

It just "gauls" you that we love these cars, doesn't it. That fact alone makes me want to keep my car.

BillK

Just look around. The "Search" button is real handy for that type of thing.

Fine, a GTECH isn't a stopwatch, but still - Speed Racer posted the graphs below in a discussion roughly here...

graphicguy

I'd bet my stopwatch method is within a tenth or two of what a track run would show. And, no, I won't take my $30K car to the track. I've got other, cheaper vehicles I'd rather abuse by doing that.

Quick_lude

I must agree with fips.. Gtech is a nice toy but by no means it is accurate enough for 1/4 mile and whp readings. To accurately measure the above values go to a dyno and a 1/4 mile strip. Please post your results.

Graphicguy, so are you saying that you bought a sports car and will never take it to redline? Sure going racing every weekend might be hard on the car but once or twice in its lifetime will not do anything to it. I redline my car at least twice a day and I also attend lapping days and auto-x. So far at 60K miles no mechanical problems what so ever. Knock, knock If anything, a $30K car with a "sports" mission should be built even better to deal with such driving than my Prelude.

ectomort

Since they updated the horsepower ratings, MazdaUSA is calling the engine "RENISIS" rather than "RENESIS."

I know it's just a typo; but, jeez, get it together Mazda!

EDIT: RX8-Nut observed this last night on another thread.

BOOSTD 7

fips ... you're gone, thanks for playing

Jims5543

iTrader: (1)

First of all - Mazda has done nothing BUT compare the RX-8 to the 3rd gen. RX-7 I have seen video's of the 2 of them racing on a road course together. I would imagine the driver of the RX-7 was told not to pull away from the RX-8. Real #'s do not lie. The 3rd gen RX-7's in stock form put close to 40 more HP to the wheels. So if Mazda never intended the RX-8 to be an ultimate sports car their PR people should stop comparing it to the RX-7 and calling it a sports car in their print ads. Pretty suspicious that their "Provisional Target" HP is very very close to the 255 of the third Gen RX-7 dont you think?

Mazda has/had a 3 rotor car on the road in Japan it is a Cosmo its engine is very popular here in the states. Pettit Racing builds a 500+HP 3rd gen RX-7 with this 20B engine in it. Mazda doesn't even have to develop this engine it exists already.


If I was any of you that own a RX-8 I would DEMAND Mazda to FIX the car and get its performance back to where they said it was. Much in the same manner as Ford did with the Cobras.

This "Here's $500 and a service contract now move along" attitude they are showing is utter BS.

Oh and I did buy something else I am picking up my Mini Cooper S Works addition wed. next week.

BTW - I am not a troll. I am an owner of a heavily tuned 87 Turbo RX-7 and race it. I even have my little Mazdaspeed sposorship.

I hesitated on the RX-8 to see how they would be in the hands of the everage consumer. I heard there was a Mazdaspeed additon in the works and was going to wait for that to arrive. I bought the Mini cash and planed on driving it for a couple of years until the Mazdaspeed addition came out.

My RX-7 at one point in time had 225RWHP so I know exactly what a 250 HP feels like. I raced my RX-7 in this trim for 6 months.
If someone is comparing the acceleration to a 90GXL you are correct it is not very flattering. It makes me wonder if anyone here knows what a 2900lb. 250HP car feels like in terms of acceleration.

I am suprised that everyone is so happy with their cars here. My point is simply do not let Mazda pay you off to shut up. Demand they find the HP they claimed you were getting. Oh, and its a lot more than 9 HP. Guys are dynoing at 180RWHP that translates to 210-216 crank HP. I am at a loss why you are so willing to ignore this little fact. I would not be content until my car pulled 215 at the wheels. Then it would be a hoot of a car.

This 0-60 time is crazy too. So what so you are pulling 6.5 seconds. Dodge claims its SRT-4 Neon is pulling a 5.9 second 0-60. Try to run one from a light and see what happens. They are turning 14 flat 1/4 miles at the track.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

Question I just thought of - say I take this $500 and put it towards an intake/exhaust/chip upgrade. Are the bastards at my dealer going to say I just violated my warranty and not give me the free maintanance?



If I change the intake i'm no longer going to get the free air filter change. Since my dealer was already giving me free oil changes, what am I going to get out of this free maintanance except for 4 spark plugs and a change of diff fluid?



How is this going to cost Mazda millions - it only effects what about 8,000 cars (if lucky)... so thats what about $8,000 worth of service/refund. Given that if they buy back the car it gets resold as being used, they probably will not even loose much money on that either. It seems they are getting off very easy. Hell, there are no rebates, no deals, no nothing on these cars - they are making a whole frikkin lot more then $500 on each car. Hell, GM looses more money per car giving out $2000 factory rebates! The only way this is going to cost them any significant amount of money is if suddenly nobody buys the RX8 anymore - and I really don't see them not being able to see another 10-20k in the next year to reach their target.



I'd like them to explain the problem, come up with a fix for the problem and then fix the problem, and promise to us they won't go around and lower the MSRP by a couple grand and f*&k us on resale value, and then kiss our asses by including something else rather then throw a couple bucks that means nothing to them at us and thats it.


...given all that, I'll probably remain pissed at my favorite company from blatantly hiding this for as long as possible for awhile and take the $500 :o

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

***moderator edit***

TurboSE

Ok, since so many of you came to the conclusion that the car will make the advertised power and that it was changed at the ports for emissions reasons, can someone tell me how these CA emissions tests are conducted. Do they test at a cars redline or something? That seems to be the problem here, everything is nice and dandy till around 6k rpm and then it poops out. Someone educated in CA emissions educate me on this cause I don't buy this theory at all.
And no, I am not a Honda driving troll. I am a rotorhead who is slightly pissed off at Mazda.

DoobyWho

All i know is i traded in my car when i bought my 8. If i decided to do the buy back.. Do i get my car back? Do I just get all my money back (tax,title,license,payoff on my car, etc)...

I love my car, but my finances might be getting tight pretty soon with a new baby coming (just found out)... so i dunno if ill use this to get a cheaper car.. or what..

TybeeRX-8

You are absolutely correct about how much this will cost Mazda. First, they are making a healthy profit on each car as is and how many have they actually sold or had pre-ordered before 8/26/03 in the US? Let's guess and say it was 2,000 cars (which may be high by 500+). The $500 credit amounts to $1M IF every owner makes use of it. The service contract may actually cost another $1M assuming every current owner keeps the car for the term of the warranty. But we know that won't happen. Many will be traded, some will be wrecked, some will get the warranty voided by after-market changes, etc. The continued free service will most likely not apply to the second owner. So, in a "nutshell", Mazda is getting off cheap with this deal. $2M is a drop in the bucket for them and Ford. Of course they will have to live with the fallout in terms of sales. In my book, they would be far better off coming up with a fix for the problem. Then everybody would truly be happy with their purchase. I'll get mine next week and will miss the hp probably only in my mind. But that counts for something, no matter how "small minded" I may be.

jsotelo

So has anyone figured out what emmision piece was added to removed the HP?

To me it seems the power is still in the engine, it's the same one they sell in Japan that makes 248hp.. you just have to find out what you need to undo to get the HP back.

I know I got about 18 hp from undoing the cats on my 7

graphicguy

I never said I wouldn't redline it. I do that regularly (since break in is through).

I won't take it to the track, however. I doubt that I'll do a 7K clutch dump either. It runs fast without the clutch dump.

I used to go to the track with a beat up, but well-modded Mustang GT. Nice hobby, but I have backed away from it. Too many "wannabes" and punks with more money than sense began showing up. Used to autox with a a bunch of cars...including a first gen MR2, a '60s version MINI and an 80s vintage Corolla GTS.

I'm no stranger to tuning, nor the track and I've spent enough of my free time on both and more than a fair amount of money, too.

Thanks for giving "flips" the boot. He was just like any number of the ******** I tried to avoid when at the track.

Prowla

Upon going to my dealership to find out some information, I picked up a copy of this lil ummm magazine (its reallll thin) talking about "International Engine of the Year awards 2003... Presented by engine technology international magazine" I didn't want to search through all the posts, but for those questioning the engines that were tested for those awards, it shows on the last page what power outputs were used for the judges. I'll just qoute it since I don't have a scanner:

"Naturally aspirated and available with two power outputs (192bhp or 240bhp), the rotary impressed the judges with its silky smooth power delivery, incredible refinement and willingness to rev so freely."

That's not too far off at all from what Mazda has adjusted their hp claims to be. Then again, I have no clue where I'm going with this except to answer those questions about the power of the engine when it was judged for the awards.

StretchSJE

Wow, I had no idea. I never followed much on Miatas since I'm much too tall to fit in them. I've heard of tall owners, but not me. In fact, I see more over the top of the windshield with the top down than under it, and despite that my height comes from long legs. I'd probably own one otherwise- I love lightweight cars, and don't mind a "cozy" cockpit.

Anyway, I heard this transmission issue was a large problem with Proteges as well, though I haven't heard much on that issue either. I almost bought a Protege and a friend has a 2002 5-spd, and it's not effected. Still, some drivers report the issue.

This begs the question- do all Mazda manual transmissions have this issue?

I used to hold Mazda in the highest regard as my favorite auto manufacturer. They always seemed to innovate by thinking outside the box, and weren't afraid to build something different. While that still stands true, now that I'm an owner and hanging with the Mazda crowd much more closely, I'm beginning to lose such high favor. This horsepower issue is rediculous. I don't care about this missing power- I care about the company that somehow forgot to test the production cars. It's a trust issue. If major issues like that slip, it's no wonder the manual tranny's haven't been fixed despite being used in many different designs in many different cars.

When I was one of the first Mazda6 owners, it was because I trusted Mazda to build a reliable car despite no reliability data. Yet, I have a clutch shudder. I expected resale value to be high when Mazda promised not to put rebates on their midsize cars, and they proceeded to put huge rebates on the car soon after. I also expected a sporty sedan, and at least that I got. Really, that's the only thing that can be told from a test drive, and the rest was a guess. Kudos to the design team, but shame on Mazda North America in their continued poor execution of marketing great Japense vehicles. I don't trust Mazda anymore.

In regards to the horsepower issue- what about people who trusted Mazda so much, they pre-ordered with a non-refundable deposit for their 250hp sports car? Wouldn't you feel betrayed if you kept looking forward to added power after a break-in, and it never came?

I'm not saying the car is bad the way it is, I'm saying it's a matter of trust.

RX-8 Zoomster

Call it what you want. I feel different. You obviously have a lot of pent up anger for Mazda.

Bottom line, I was perfectly happy with my car before & feel the same now.

Obviously you feel differently, and that's your opinion. Since you already own the car, if you don't like it, then take the buyback and quit complaining. Mazda was nice enough to at least give you that option.

I'm done debating you on this subject.

Ike

With this post this topic now has one more response than the best motoring thread:D