bureau13

This is not a flame, but wouldn't a performance-oriented buyer buy the car based on how it performs? To me this would necessitate a fairly rigorous test drive. If, after that, I was happy with the way it performs, I really don't need to know the exact horsepower. Hell, what is the real-world difference in performance between a car with 247 hp and one that has 238, or whatever it really has in this case. Is it much different that hauling a passenger around? Maybe even less.

I do think its embarrassing, and I'd be pissed about it too...scratch that, as a Mazda and rotary fan and owner (just not an 8, at least not yet) I am pissed and embarrassed....but more so because I have to take crap from owners of other cars now, and because of any potential negative impact on the future of rotary sports cars. That said...I don't see people avoiding Cobras or Miatas, and they had the same issues. I just greatly preferred being on "ha ha laugh at the other guy" end of it :-D

jds

Zaphod

So as a "performance oriented buyer" you wanted something with 247, but 238 is unacceptable? Or is it just that you were misled regardless of the numbers? Just curious.

Frankly, I probably would have gone for the Z in the first place if not for the need for a back seat. Comparing the Z to the 8 is comparing apples to oranges in my book, since the Z is not an option for me given my requirements. If you are a "performance oriented buyer," there are so many more options than the 8 even if it had 270 hp.

canzoomer

There are a lotof ways to compare this:
Power to weight, for example:
350Z Track Pack: 287hp / 3226lbs = 11.24 lb/hp
RX-8 with 247hp: 247hp / 3046lbs = 12.33 lb/hp
RX-8 with 238hp: 238 / 3046 = 12.79 lb/hp
RX-8 with 228hp: 228 / 3046 = 13.36 lb/hp

Therefore, to get the same acceleration figures from the RX-8 as the 350Z we would need to have 271hp.
Without getting into the math, the quarter mile times for the 350Z compared to the RX-8 support a power level of around 220hp for the RX-8.

Or, to put it as $ per hp, using Canadian $ and prices:
350Z Track Pack: $45,400 $158.19 per hp
RX-8 6MT - GT 247hp: $39,995 $161.92 per hp
RX-8 6MT - GT 238hp: $39,995 $168.05 per hp
RX-8 6MT - GT 228hp: $39,995 $175.42 per hp

BTW, I got the 228hp from the euro spec claim of 230ps as sold in Germany and UK.
230ps = 228hp
Looking at 228hp at the engine, and 17% loss, we would get 189hp, which is in the range of what people are seeing on a dyno.
With Mazda you can choose what power rating you want, just by going to different Mazda websites.

Canada, USA, Germany, UK, Japan, Italy, are all different:
247,238,228,228,247,240

Racer X-8

Whoops! I really didn't mean to sound like I was in any kind of disagreement to what you have posted.

Yeah, peace.

I'm trying to be as forgiving as I can be with Mazda. I'm an engineer and I know that things totally unexpected can come up just like this.

Lets say they had the ecu mapped for the NA reg's. and for some reason, when they were shipped with that mapping, the epa test all of the sudden failed! Hundreds of RX8's sitting portside, confined due to failed epa test results! They did a quick fix by a less-than-optimum re-mapping that got the cars out of port & into the hands of the proud owners. Great, except, now the final fix still needs to be done. Meawhile, those proud new owners got bad mpg & bad rwhp numbers & this spread like wildfire & the doggon final fix has still not surfaced!!!!

In my opinion, this scenario is really not too far fetched. Hard to believe, sure. Unforgivable? Well....easy for some to say. Final fix never gonna happen? Well....easy for some to say. I say it's coming when it's ready & it's going to be "something wonderful!"

All speculation though.

Funny, 22 pages of nothing but speculation, my posts included, cuz... Budaman said the letters will be mailed-out tomorrow. Cheez. The letters haven't even been mailed yet.

Budaman got the short-n-sweet by someone in the know and the subtleties of the deal that show Mazda's true colors could have been left out for mere brevity. This is the same company that has been showering its RX-8 pre-orderers with unexpected gifts of gratitude. Now look at us...

Once again kidmarc, I liked your post. Peace!

I sure hope for everyones sake (except for those who feed upon this type of thing) that Mazda will treat us like they have already.

CarEnthusiast

Ok, I'll provide an argument for the "minimal" difference of hp between 247 vs 238...

I ask, how many here in the long term plan on upgrading exhaust, intake, headers, ecu and such? Basic bolt-ons to make it simple.

Sure it is no different now with 238 than it was a couple days ago with 247. But I wont be surprised when 6 months down the road, people here would be bolting on performance enhancements trying to inch more and more power out the rotary. More importantly, trying to make it "perform" better than in stock form.

Wouldnt you want to work with a strong foundation from the beginning?

But hey, for those who don't plan on not changing anything, it would still be fun to drive no matter the hp number right? Even in the long run and while hauling 4 adults?

rowentx

I'm definatey on the fence right now. Should I take the buy back or the money and service? That is the question.

I love the car, I look forward to driving it everyday. It's a great car and I've had no complaints so far.

However, I got home Saturday afternoon and there was one message on the answering machine; it was the sales person I worked with. He briefly explained the offer in the message, but left out the real meat of why he called. My stomach sunk, because I knew deep down what it was about.

I do feel that car value is a question now, is $1500 or so enough? How can I justify the expense of this vehicle when it is very apparent that I paid for more performance than I actually got? Heck, the dyno results posted on this board suggest it's even more of a power deficiency than 9HP.

I'm trying not to be rash, hopefully a good nights sleep will keep from leaning towards the buy back. In the end I want the car, but the economics tell me I overpaid.

I'll be interested to see how this plays out over the next week, I won't make a decision until I receive the letter from Mazda.

Love the board, glad to see Mazda has at least reacted.

msrecant

I am curious, what was the acceleration and top speed that you clocked for your RX-8?

Also, doesn't the MX-6 only weigh around 2,600 lbs vs the RX-8's 3,000 lbs?

Kas

Personaly, for 8 or 9 HP, give them a break!

Are you happy with the car? Obviously the people who are going to let mazda buy the car back have either realised the debt they created and/or are not true rotary followers.

My rx-8 is my 5th mazda and 3rd rotary i've owned, I have a following and didnt just jump on the next "how to be cool" band wagon.

Comments from Australia...where the HP has always been 238.

RX-GR8

this link http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/fe...5scc_mazdarx8/ has a good review of the rx-8 and mentions the power port sticking when it was dyno'd and how the car was taken away from them when this was found out. all apologies if this link has already been posted.

RX-8 Zoomster

I agree with you here.

The RX-8 seems to be good mix of sedan, coupe, and sports car. I believe there were many that cross-shopped the RX-8 in every one of these categories.

If I wanted a true sedan, I wouldn't even considered the RX-8. At one time, a little over a year ago, I was leaning that way. On my short list was a BMW330, G35 Sedan, Audi S4, and a Saab S-93.

Then that tastes progressed to a coupe - BMW 330ci or a G35c. More sporty styling than the sedan, but still have a rear seat.

Now if I would have wanted a more "performance orientated" car, I would have looked into something more in the lines of a Porsche, 350Z, S2000, a 'Vette or even something like a Mustang.

Now when the RX-8 came along, it seemed like a great compromise of all those categories. Sedan because it had a rear seat I wanted. A coupe because of it's look when the clamshell door are closed. A sports car with it's looks and its combination of performance and handling. And of course, I figure in another factor - affordability. Ideal for me.

The bottom line is that Zaphod, myself, and a number of people here, probably would have chosen something other than the RX-8 if our "requirements" was strictly a sedan, coupe or performance car. Because of it's styling & features, the RX-8 offered a compromising combination of all three, and that was the reason we bought it. At least for me it was. So this is why I'm not as disappointed as some because of the minus 9HP. I bought the car for more than performance alone. But I do understand and sympathize for those that feel cheated in the area of performance of this car.

rxtreme

iTrader: (1)

This is kind of off subject (maybe budaman can answer this), I need to know who I can contact so Mazda sends my letter to the right address. I'm in the military and recently moved. My last address will probably have no forward. Who would I have to call to make sure the letter arrives at my new home?

zthang

For those who don't know, I was looking very hard at both of these cars and was having a hard time deciding. Styling-wise, it was pretty close but i actually like the 8 better than the Z just b/c of how good the front of the 8 looks. Practicality made no difference....i have a jeep at home to lug crap around....i wanted a great Bang-For-The-Buck sports car. (this is probably where i differ from most pple on this board b/c they all bought the 8 for practicality). So anyways, PERFORMANCE/$$ was what i was looking at, and I had $30k to do it with. The originally rated rx8 with ~250hp was the minimum i wanted to buy. If i wanted a great looking sub-250hp car i would've just gone with an acura TL for much cheaper than $30k. But now that the 8 has dipped into the 230hp range (albeit high 30's) it just doesn't seem worth the price PERFORMANCE wise to me. Again, just my personal opinion....i already know many people here disagree with me....but i also know some people here agree...just wanted to answer your question.

By the way...i'm not just some hp junkie...i looked closely at handling/skidpad numbers, 0-60-100 times etc...i would take the rx8 with only 238hp in a heartbeat if it could do what the s2000 does with 240hp. Now thats worth $30k

mashoutposse00

Please, the fact that current owners have test driven the car before buying hardly acquits Mazda in this situation.

Before the declared power output revision, the RX-8 was 'deceptively fast,' with the lack of a distinct feel of power being chalked up to 'the inherent smoothness of the rotary,' 'super linear power delivery,' 'a flat torque curve,' et cetera. These kinds of comments, repeatedly posted on this forum by test drivers, were made in good faith that, despite the feel, the RX-8 really does offer S2000/WRX/350Z/etc. performance in a unique package.

Now we are finding out that, frankly, it was all bullshit and that we should have trusted the seat of our pants a bit more. That Best Motoring video posted earlier this summer was the first clue that something was wrong -- the car was soundly beaten by supposedly comparable cars like the S2000, Integra Type R, WRX, and G35 Coupe, and we heard talk about 'green' engines, bad driver, and similar tripe.

The fact of the matter is that the RX-8 offers a level of performance on par with that of vehicles costing thousands of dollars less -- with more time for people to properly break in their 8's and pass the 'must baby it' stage, the truth would have come out sooner or later, anyway. The RX-8 is a nice 4-seater with sporty styling, but it is FAR from being the groundbreaking 'practical sports car' that was anticipated. Not with RSX Type S-level performance.

Also, considering the fact that the RX-8 currently dynos anywhere from 15-20rwhp under the 240hp S2000, one should seriously doubt the validity of the restated numbers.

mystrx8

I searched the internet for information about the Cobra debacle, and I posted my results here:

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9522

I hope I did not post that in the wrong forum. My apologies to the admins if I did...

bureau13

I realize you're trying to make a point, but nowhere in my post which you seem to be responding to did I even remotely suggest this.

I can't really argue with anything else you have said, though. I think we differ on the conclusions that are to be drawn perhaps.

jds

nostatic

This is spot on with my thinking about the situation. I was, to say the least, very disappointed with the results of the Best Motoring video. That video is the best example I have seen of a true comparison of the cars involved (same track, same conditions, same level of skill among professional drivers!). I couldn't understand what the hell happened to the RX-8 in the video, but it makes sense now.

I, too, believe that the power deficiency is closer to 15-20 hp. But I am glad to see that Mazda is trying to maintain a loyal customer base with its offer. Kudos for that at least.

mashoutposse00

Apologies for the misinterpretation.

Werner

Wow, the same thing all over again. This kind of confirms what a Mazda Europe guy told me on August 16th at the MX-5.de meeting, when I discussed the power issue with him. He basically said that there are no big engine or ECU differences between the Europe (231 PS) and US version. When I asked hin how this could happen a second time since the Miata fiasco, he said it was the same thing again. Optimistic pre-announcements and when the truth comes out. marketing refuses to have the numbers adjusted according to reality because they are afraid of lower sales.

FWIW

jsotelo

Thank you for putting it in perspective for everyone.

"The sky is falling"

BRealistic

If that is what happened this time, and the same marketing execs are responsible, then I say "lynch 'em". Cars were much better before focus groups and market analysis planners diluted the market with too many wannabe Camrys and marketing handwringing almost sporty cars made more vanilla to appeal to a broader market than just the enthusiasts. Let the designers create what they want, let the engineers perfect it, and then let the public decide if it is for them or not. Kill all the marketing execs.

ProtoConVert

what options were you choosing when you compared the two in price? When I do the same, Z comes out to be >2k higher. I find that I'd have to lose a lot in the Z to get an near equal price.

graphicguy

When I was shopping, I was comparing the price of a 350Z/G35 to the RX8. The price for a Touring 350Z was $36K with NAV, side aircurtains, and sunroof was not available. The G35 Leather with sunroof and NAV was close to $37K. My RX8 6MT GT with NAV was ~$33K. So, if you are comparing "apples to apples" regarding equipment levels, the 350Z/G35 costs more by about $3K-$4K.

BillK

What more can you possibly want? To use your analogy above Mazda is offering to comp your entire meal, steaks, drinks, everything. Gratis. Thanks for coming. Here's ALL your money back, have a nice day, sorry for the inconvenience. Please try us again someday.

Really, what more do you want? (I shouldn't ask that in today's society, someone is sure to sue saying they want compensation for the mental anguish of being forced to drive such a wimpy car, plus mental duress because their friends who own S2000s are now making fun of them.)

In short:

1) If you own an RX-8 and are unhappy with the HP or numbers, return it for a full refund.

2) If you like your car, keep it and take the credit and maintenance.

3) If you haven't bought one yet and are upset by the situation, DON'T BUY ONE. Don't whine here, it doesn't do any good. Write a letter to Mazda if you like telling them why you won't buy an 8; they're not reading your message here. Don't talk about how this will bankrupt Mazda; most buyers don't know/care about what's happened here and even fewer have heard about the Miata fiasco.

Why is this so difficult?

TomsterRX8

Personally, I feel the power generated is considerabley below even the 238 admitted horses. I passed someone yesterday on a two lane highway and was wondering if I was EVER gonna get past him........just no power surge after 7,000 rpm.

If this offer is legit and not just internet gossip, then Mazda can have this car back. I'll wait for the MazdaSpeed version of the RX8 or new RX7.

athena

Talked to Mazda, sounds like they are offering good compensation for this! I found out that the $500 is in the form of a Mastercard that can be used anywhere. I have to take them up on this, doesn't change the fact that I love my RX-8!!!! They said that they mailed letters to all of the rx-8 owners on friday that will give instruction on how to opt for this deal!!!!