ciccone376

does anyone feel that this admittance in power deficiency will allow new car buyers to make better deals on the RX8?

omahawk

Just got to work and saw the news. Mazda just forced my hand and I am not getting the RX-8 now. I know 3 others here at work that are calling the dealer and they are getting their deposit's back as I type this. It sucks that Mazda droped the ball again, this will hurt them more than they understand.


Also 58 hp loss through a manual transmission is unacceptable. I could see this with a slushbox but not a manual with a carbon fiber drive shaft. If any of you believe that it actually has 238hp at the crank, you are crazy and are probably the ones that believe everything that corporate america has to say. I know how much bs With all of the dynos that have been posted by credible people there is more than a 9 hp deficet.

ciccone376

this has to make it easier for new buyers to make deals, especially if people are taking their deposits back.


what I think is funny is everyone is concerned about straight line performance, whereby almost every magazine I read STATED the car was a little underpowered but that the handling, ride, styling and balance of the car more then made up for it. Allowing it to place AHEAD of the G35Coupe in a Car and Driver comparison.

oh well, people will still take power over handling I guess.

In the world of F1, Renault just won a GP this weekend with a car more then 50-70hp DOWN against the BMW's and Ferraris...they won with handling.

Ciccone

TomsterRX8

I certainly do! The main reason why I'll probably turn the car back in to Mazda is that this is going to cause a glut of 8's on the market. From people cancelling orders to people turning cars back in to people staying away, the value of this car is quite likely to plummet. I have no doubt that I can give this car back tomorrow and, if I wished, could buy a new one later this year for $3,000 less than I paid a month ago.

Mazda needs time to get this car right. Once the power issues are resolved then they need to work on the heat that pours into the cabin, trunk, glove box and cup holders. While they're at it, maybe find a way to get better gas mileage than a Ford Expedition.


Other than these 3 things.............love the car!

graphicguy

My delaer just called me regarding this issue.

Two things....first, he said the letter should hit today as they sent them out last week. Mazda's goal was for all of them to get into owners hands either today or tomorrow.

He said that Mazda indeed will buy the car back, if you want to give it back to them.

Something a little different than what's been posted here....he said that the $500 is being called something like "Mazda Bucks", good only for Mazda accessories.

I asked him about the free maintenance. He said he didn't think that was part of the deal.

Again, I'll wait until I get my letter to find out the details. I'll assume we'll all get them at the same time and this board will be filled with the exact details as the mailman makes his rounds.

boowana

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Racer X-8
[B]
Lets say they had the ecu mapped for the NA reg's. and for some reason, when they were shipped with that mapping, the epa test all of the sudden failed! Hundreds of RX8's sitting portside, confined due to failed epa test results! They did a quick fix by a less-than-optimum re-mapping that got the cars out of port & into the hands of the proud owners. Great, except, now the final fix still needs to be done. Meawhile, those proud new owners got bad mpg & bad rwhp numbers & this spread like wildfire & the doggon final fix has still not surfaced!!!!

In my opinion, this scenario is really not too far fetched. Hard to believe, sure. Unforgivable? Well....easy for some to say. Final fix never gonna happen? Well....easy for some to say. I say it's coming when it's ready & it's going to be "something wonderful!"

All speculation though.


RX-Racer:

I think you're right on the money. Based on what i know (knew) that scenario plays right into the relm of possibility.

I do know that approximately 3000 cars are affected and that the cars being built right now in Japan are speced exactly the same with no changes at 238 HP.

Might this change down the road with some type of fix after the engineers get a chance to play, I can only hope so. If Mazda does pursue this, I thnk a great deal of good will can be generated and broken fences mended.

loco4rx8

Just talked to Mike at Mazda's RX-8 Customer Service. I asked him about WHY the power rating has been downgraded. He said that the pre-production RX-8 rated at 247 hp, but that once the PCM was tuned for U.S. emissions standards, the power dropped to 238.

I know we have speculated this before, but according to my conversation, it does seem that this is the at least semi-official word from Mazda, so I thought it was worth posting.

He was also adamant that the performance numbers (0-60, 1/4 mile, etc) have not dropped.

RXhusker

You might want to shift out of SIXTH gear when you pass next time :D

My wife is contemplating suing me for whiplash injuries for stepping on the gas peddle in 3rd gear while flying down the highway. 4th also has very good acceleration -- 5th and 6th are for cruising and gas mileage --- not for passing and throwing you back in your seat. Makes me wonder how much of this HP issue is a driver issue and not an engine/car issue?

If you are expecting a "turbo-type" power surge at 7k then I think your expectations are way off -- If you don't feel a nice change in the power and sound of the engine at approx 7500 rpm's then your car may have an issue -- my car certainly kicks it in at around 7500 and takes on a different persona :D

loco4rx8

Fortunately, your dealer is wrong. The guy at Mazda Customer Service that I just spoke to indicated that the free service is included and that the $500 is a debit card that you can spend any way you want.

Slick_Advanced

The only problem I see with the current deal is this. If you take the deal and then Mod your ECU or what not does that void your warrenty?

Assurances that you caould make certian mods without penalty would be a nice step in the right direction for those that have serious concerns about the hp loss/gain.


However I don't currently see that as a plausbile solution more of a fanboy type of solution.

Mark Booth

With the 2001 Miata horsepower fiasco, the $500 refund was in the form of a pre-paid MasterCard with a $500 limit. It could be used anywhere MasterCard is accepted.

I don't really know what kind of "deals" early buyers have been getting. But, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of them have been paying sticker or slightly above. If that is the case, there is no doubt in my mind that future buyers (say, in November and beyond) will be getting substantially better deals on their RX-8s.

I purchased my 2001 Miata AFTER Mazda's admission of the horsepower mistake. I paid $4,000 UNDER sticker price after Mazda rebate and dealer discount. I did not have to negotiate this deal... the dealer was advertising it and it applied to every 2001 Miata on their lot.

Mark

TomsterRX8

Actually it was a shift from 5th to 4th in order to pass. No whip lash effect, other than the whiplash I was comtemplating getting from the car headed in the opposite direction!

If your car does something special after 7k rpm then you're the first I've heard. All comments I've heard/read talk about the same sensation I experience.....nothing happening at 7k rpm and up. Having owned a number of performance autos, and knowing how to drive them like they're designed, I can say that if the RX8 produces more than 180-190 horses at the rear wheel then them horses need to be put out to stud.

For my $33,000 I got a pretty cool looking car with some semi-irritating first year glitches and performance equal to a Honda Accord. The only thing making me hesitate on selling it back is the damn Navigation system is about the neatest freaking toy I've ever owned!

graphicguy

Thanks....I'll wait for the letter. Then we can all put this issue to rest.

zthang

You guys are right, the more expensive models of the 350z come out $2-$4K more than a similarly equipped rx8 model. However, I own a performance trim z, and it only comes with HID headlights, 18" rims, the spoiler package, and some other minor details (homelink mirror, vdc, etc). I didn't want leather b/c i'm a custom 2tone leather kind of guy, and my performance was $30,xxx i forgot exactly what. The rx8 similarly equipped here is still lower, but by less than a thousand dollars.

So in conclusion, I RETRACT my previous statement. The rx8 is cheaper similarly equipped on every model of the 350z BUT the base b/c the base of the z is in the $26k, and for the 240hp rx8 it is in the $27k. Man were getting really technical now!!

Aside from choosing a model that costs above $31k (which by the way I don't think EITHER of these cars are worth more than $31k!!) my point was that the price range of certain models of these cars are really close...I already know some of you 8 owners feel you got what you paid for, but are there any owners out there who don't? I really wanted an 8 and was thinking of trading my z at one point. But now, i don't think i will b/c i just don't feel it gives as much bang for the buck PERFORMANCE wise.

Now the reason i made this stupid technical $ to $ point b/w the 2 cars is b/c I want some owners out there to take charge, unite, and maybe get those ponies back so i can be jealous of the 8's performance while i'm driving, and if it the 8s performace comes out as comprible to the zs in the end, i can again have that beautiful dillema of whether or not to trade my z in for the 8 b/c they give such great bang for the buck performacne, while still staying in the more reliable japanese market.

Can anyone do me a favor and pull up the performance numbers of the Acura CL-S, TL, TL-S as well as their prices?

sburkett

So how many different cars from different manufacturers have been "unexpectedly" derated in order to meet emissions now?

Yet Mazda goes ahead and publishes HP numbers for a US model BEFORE they test for emissions compliance? That is either supreme stupidity, or just the usual corporate "mendacity by incompetence".

Take one starry eyed terminally optimistic engineering department, one "ethics is whatever you can get away with" marketing department, a couple of vice presidents who won't listen to bad news, mix it all together, and voila - scandal, customer screwed, "honest" mistake. Happens ALL the time in the software industry, I would imagine that automotive is similar.

Anyway, I love the car, I love what Mazda does to support racing, and I don't believe Mazda is particularly more incompetent/evil than most large organizations. I won't speculate further on the actual cause of the problem. But one thing I'm personally sure of - someone(s) at Mazda knew the published numbers were false or at least irresponsibly optimistic a long time ago.

Steven

RXhusker

I am not the only one - check some of the other threads:

"Did a bunch of redlining, and I discovered at about 7200 the engine sound changed from just quiet to a kind of fuzzy rattling sound until redline buzzer. I had never noticed this before, but also hadn't been working right at that rev and listening purposefully. Still there is a definite character change in engine sound there, possibly the crossover pipe doing the back and forth intake compression I think it is? Any other ideas on this?

I don't know whether to believe my butt, but I absolutely can say that I felt the EXTRA push as 7270 rpm with more and faster acceleration. I don't remember this before, it had always seemed to go the same acceleration all the way up."

There are several of us who have commented in various threads -- there may be an issue affecting some cars but not ALL the cars. And yes I also know what a 240 - 250 HP car feels like and I also would like to think that I have realistic expectations as to what the power boost feels like when the 3rd ports open. I will also say that at 600 miles when I first took it to redline I didn't notice the same effect but by 750 - 800 miles the engine really started to loosen up and I can definitely feel the kick -- my wife knows nothing about the supposed 7250 rpm 3rd port opening and she mentioned that she could really feel the difference when the revs get up to the 7500 level.

If your car is performing like a Honda Accord I would definitely take the return option -- my car is NOT peforming like an Accord (yes I have driven a new V6 Accord).

I don't pretend to have any answers -- but I also don't think it is fair to say all RX-8's are not performing as expected. My car has all the accelaration I was expecting (even before the HP announcement) -- better handling than I could have imagined -- an awesome interior -- a head turning/neck snapping exterior -- a little less headroom than I would have designed myself (6'3") -- and an amazing amount of room for the family in a REAL SPORTS car

graphicguy

Zthang, you can go to carsdirect.com or Edmunds.com and get pricing on those other cars. Just curious....why are you unhappy with your Z? It's a good car, isn't it? Reason I'm asking, while I bought the rX8, the 350z was my 2nd choice and I thought it was a great car, too.

TomsterRX8

I'll agree that the engine SOUNDS different above 7,000 rpm......much more growl. But there's no real push in my car to go along with the terrific growl. My car has 1,200 miles on it now and still nothing much happens from 7,000 to 9,000 rpm.......just a polite, gradual, methodic acceleration. All the while that damn car in my passing lane is getting closer and closer.

Both my BMW 330 coupe and my S2000 really came to life as you approached redline. The surge in power was quite apparent. I highly doubt my RX8 performs any differently than anyone else's. The test ride that a friend and I took had the exact same characteristic. My friend, who races competitively, noticed it immediately.

I don't say any of this to bash the car. It's a really nice performing, great looking automobile. My concern is that we certainly paid too much for the performance we're receiving and, more importantly, this snafu could REALLY destroy its market value. The smart play here is to take the money, do without till Christmas, then buy one again for your Christmas present.....saving literally thousands of dollars in the re-purchase price. With those thousands saved you could give others a really great Christmas or, a better idea, put that money into performance parts that will make this car really scream.

Just my $0.02.

zthang

Haha...we did the exact opposite of each other. I got the Z, you got the 8. But to answer your question, I'm actually very happy with my Z....the only gripes I have are the stiff ride and the lack of backseats/cargo room. I didn't think it would be a problem when i first bought the car because I said "oh ill move crap and get groceries in my jeep", but now that the Z has become more of my daily driver/weekend warrior/play toy, sometimes ill be getting ready to go out or whatever and I just want to take more than one of my friends dammit!! Its just not the same going out at night in a car with one other person vs. 3-4 other people. Does anyone know what i'm talking about? It's just more fun when there are more people with you in the car. Thats my only regret...but rest assured, i won't be trading in my Z for anything. I'm actually helping my brother sell his old accord and maybe getting something rx8, acura tl/cl like. Thats why i was asking. And thanks for the links.

ACRX8

After my test drive - I told my dealer to keep my RX-8. Not what I expected!

canzoomer

Exactly right.
The average person who does aftermarket mods for power easily spends a few thousand dollars on this.

Before I received my car I told a friend, and my wife:
"It will sure be nice, as it looks like this time I don't have to spend time and money on upgrading my new car, for a change."

Instead I now find we are starting down 30hp in the hole,
based on an engine output of 217hp, based on the fact that all the dyno results so far have hielded around 180hp.
17% loss on 217 = 180hp at the wheels

To gain back the missing 30hp is a pretty major set of mods.

Typically on most cars that is AT LEAST an air intake, exhaust system, and ECU tuning. In general those parts cost around $2000 to $3000.
To get back to the point we are supposed to be at we will have to spend that much at a minumum.

Add to this the fact that this also eliminates those typical "easy gains" for most people, and we are left with a car that we can not boost over the stock claim with anything less than a turbo or supercharger, which usually runs over $5,000 to implement, and would void our warranty, whereas exhaust and intake do not, and the serious nature of this is perhaps a bit more clear.

Again, forget the "free service" or $500
I want the car that Mazda advertised, and I expect them to take steps to correct their errors and deliver that car.

And, as I know that there are a couple of you just itching to tell me how I can give it back, then please tell me how i can get my previous car back, and all the other expenses I will incur?

I know that the moderators on this list only want to hear the "happy happy" side of things, but seriously people, we have been seriously screwed here, and the only acceptable solution is for Mazda to deliver what they promised.

Aratinga

Okay. Just got off the phone with Mike (busy guy) at Mazda's RX-8 Owner's customer service (800) 662-6779. Here's what he told me:

Reason for missing HP: Engines were tested in Japan without emissions equipment; when it was added (apparently at the port, although he wasn't sure), HP numbers were down.

Terms of buyback/free service offer:
These will be spelled out in a letter already sent to all RX-8 owners, but the basic offer is (1) Mazda will buy back your car, including dealer markup, and costs associated with your loan if with Mazda Credit. No ding on your credit if you unwind the deal. They will not reimburse for aftermarket things you've added, late fees, negative equity on trade-in, and a few other reasonable things.

THERE IS NO RESTRICTION ON YOUR TURNING AROUND AND BUYING ANOTHER RX-8 THE VERY NEXT DAY. Yes, all-caps was intentional... I asked him specifically about this.

The car you turn in will NOT be available on your dealer's lot as a used car; Mazda North America will take the car and offer it to its employees. In fact, Mike said "If you turn in your car it could be my car." Thus, no glut of barely-used RX-8s on the market.

Deadline to make up your mind: OCT. 1st 2003. So... I can drive my car until then, turn it in for full refund, and then turn around and buy a brand-new one the very same day.

If you opt for buy-back, you'll have to call the number above and then work out the details.

OR... you can take option (2), free scheduled maintenance for the full term of the warranty period, and a $500 Mastercard debit card that is good anyplace debit cards are accepted. If you opt for this, you simply check a box on the letter you'll be receiving and send it back to Mazda.

I asked him what effect this will have on demand and pricing of the RX-8. He claimed that since performance numbers were unaffected (can anybody confirm this?) demand for the car will remain high and resale price should be unaffected. I wonder if dealers are still going to be getting MSRP or better for this car now, though....

He politely asked me at the end of our very pleasant conversation what my plans were for my car. I told him I'm as yet undecided, although I'm leaning toward keeping her. The fact that I could drive this one another month and then turn around and buy a brand new one is tempting, though.

graphicguy

Totally understand what you're saying. That's one of the major reasons I bought the RX8....it can haul more than just 2 people. On the other hand, I thought the hatchback arrangement with the Z would hold more than the trunk of the RX8. How much room do you have back there with the hatch?

graphicguy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aratinga
[B]Okay. Just got off the phone with Mike (busy guy) at Mazda's RX-8 Owner's customer service (800) 662-6779. Here's what he told me:

Reason for missing HP: Engines were tested in Japan without emissions equipment; when it was added (apparently at the port, although he wasn't sure), HP numbers were down.

Terms of buyback/free service offer:
These will be spelled out in a letter already sent to all RX-8 owners, but the basic offer is (1) Mazda will buy back your car, including dealer markup, and costs associated with your loan if with Mazda Credit.

OK....what if you didn't finance through Mazda credit? Will Mamzda assume the fees and loan amount that my local bank will assess?

nk_Rx8

So technically, someone could buy one before end of tomorrow to have a summer car that you can just have tons of fun on and beat on it for a month, and then return it by Fall (Oct 1). Then you can decide if you really like the car and buy another one next Spring, probably cheaper. So it can be like a free 1month test drive car.:D ....not that I would do that!