Need some help
03-14-2004 | 07:26 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 68
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Need some help
I am in the process of fighting Mazda to get rid of the 8 due to being unreliable and horrible gas mileage. The Indiana attourney general got a response back from the dealership, Tom Roush Mazda in Westfield Indiana (By far the scum of the earth) saying that they would not buy back the car without doing the full lemon law procedure. They also said that Mazda does not warranty flooding, nor does any other manufacturer. They said they "on a one time goodwill basis" they agreed to take care of the matter for me. What they did was change the oil for gas in the oil and then charge me for it. Gas is still in the oil. They did not change the plugs because it would have cost me a couple hundred dollars. Basically the dealership is lying to the attourney general. Im forced to flood the car 3 more times and tow it back and forth to the dealership, which basically is killing the car. We were asking for the difference between sticker and used value now, a compromise. They also said that "sports cars" were more tempermental than normal cars. They never said a word about flooding or gas mileage to me before I bought the car.
I know flooding is covered under warranty. I remember seeing a thread that had an official Mazda response saying that flooding was covered for as long as the warranty. Can somebody please respond with that or scan it and PM me? I want to have some ammunition when the snakes try to charge me again for oil changes and towing.
Thanks
Eric
(please do not buy anything from Tom Roush Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda)
I know flooding is covered under warranty. I remember seeing a thread that had an official Mazda response saying that flooding was covered for as long as the warranty. Can somebody please respond with that or scan it and PM me? I want to have some ammunition when the snakes try to charge me again for oil changes and towing.
Thanks
Eric
(please do not buy anything from Tom Roush Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda)
03-14-2004 | 07:41 PM
#2
Is Scarce
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
From: Ann Arbor, MI
This sounds like a terrible situation.
TSBs:
http://www.finishlineperformance.com...ocs/index.html
Recent Flooding TSB:
http://www.finishlineperformance.com.../01-011-04.htm
Flooding Thread:
The Tech Garage > Engine Flooding Info/Questions
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=17498
Recent Thread on flooding TSB
RX-8 Discussion > New TSB out concerning flooding
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=22989
Thread on flooding covered under warranty:
RX-8 Discussion > Got My Letter: Flooding Covered Under Warranty!
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=20065
TSBs:
http://www.finishlineperformance.com...ocs/index.html
Recent Flooding TSB:
http://www.finishlineperformance.com.../01-011-04.htm
Flooding Thread:
The Tech Garage > Engine Flooding Info/Questions
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=17498
Recent Thread on flooding TSB
RX-8 Discussion > New TSB out concerning flooding
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=22989
Thread on flooding covered under warranty:
RX-8 Discussion > Got My Letter: Flooding Covered Under Warranty!
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=20065
Last edited by Trx8; 03-14-2004 at 07:47 PM.
03-14-2004 | 08:00 PM
#3
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Thanks. I forgot to mention that they said i was just having buyers remorse. Its hard to keep cool, you just want to yell at those people. Im betting that even after the TSB, the oil will still be milky which would give me an out that way too. Ive had this car parked at my dad's shop with a sign "do not move" on it for the past 3 months, and i cant wait to resolve the issue.
03-14-2004 | 08:17 PM
#4
Mr. Blue Man
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 887
Likes: 0
From: Carmel, IN
rieskame,
Roush is right up the road from me. To be honest, I don't think their approach you are describing here would be different at any dealer. They are all in business to make money. The Lemon laws were put into effect as dealers never returned a faulty car out of the goodness of thier heart. I don't think anything has changed from that perspective. I feel your frustration.
By the way, I was dealing with another service department and their official word from Mazda was that flooding would not consitute lemon clauses. They said since it worked the same way on all RX-8's (and "7"'s from other posts here) that it was a (paraphrasing here) "feature" not a "defect". Not sure if the TSB listed above componds that view since it's now recognized as a warentee issue oficially of not.
One more thing. I would assume best case they will give you trade in value for the "8". You might have better luck getting it running properly under warentee and selling it on your own. The cost difference could be pretty large. Although I would imagine with all the frustration you've been going through a quick solution sounds better than a drawn out one even if it means more dollars in your pocket. Just wanted to point that out.
My guess is that within a short while, Mazda will come up with a sign-off document stating that the customer has been infomred of proper engine warming procedures to beter protect Mazda against these types of issues. No mention of flooding, just warm it before turning it off. Of course that doesn't address the issue.
By the way for me, even thought the dealer (not Rousch) didn't tell me about it, I knew about it from this board. So to me it's just part of the car. Not implying judgement on your perspective. That's just the way I look at it.
Best of luck and please keep us posted.
Roush is right up the road from me. To be honest, I don't think their approach you are describing here would be different at any dealer. They are all in business to make money. The Lemon laws were put into effect as dealers never returned a faulty car out of the goodness of thier heart. I don't think anything has changed from that perspective. I feel your frustration.
By the way, I was dealing with another service department and their official word from Mazda was that flooding would not consitute lemon clauses. They said since it worked the same way on all RX-8's (and "7"'s from other posts here) that it was a (paraphrasing here) "feature" not a "defect". Not sure if the TSB listed above componds that view since it's now recognized as a warentee issue oficially of not.
One more thing. I would assume best case they will give you trade in value for the "8". You might have better luck getting it running properly under warentee and selling it on your own. The cost difference could be pretty large. Although I would imagine with all the frustration you've been going through a quick solution sounds better than a drawn out one even if it means more dollars in your pocket. Just wanted to point that out.
My guess is that within a short while, Mazda will come up with a sign-off document stating that the customer has been infomred of proper engine warming procedures to beter protect Mazda against these types of issues. No mention of flooding, just warm it before turning it off. Of course that doesn't address the issue.
By the way for me, even thought the dealer (not Rousch) didn't tell me about it, I knew about it from this board. So to me it's just part of the car. Not implying judgement on your perspective. That's just the way I look at it.
Best of luck and please keep us posted.
03-14-2004 | 09:52 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 68
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I believe that the EPA tested the car before the HP "adjustment". I bet if they did it again, future owners would be paying the gas guzzler tax. At least in trucks that get 13 mpg, they are equiped with 25-35 gallon gas tanks.
03-15-2004 | 07:49 AM
#7
Is Scarce
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Some other views on MPG and EPA are here:
MPG RELATED THREADS
RX-8 Discussion > My current MPG, the saga continues......
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=15404
The Tech Garage > Type of gas(octane/company) varies performance greatly?
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=20976
RX-8 Discussion > An interesting way in which I improved Fuel Economy.
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=21089
ANALYSIS BASED ON DATA SUPPLIED BY FORUM MEMBERS
The most comprehensive MPG reporting I have seen is here:
RX-8 Discussion > Statistical Analysis Approach to Understanding MPG Issue
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=13280
The corresponding results of that analysis are here:
RX-8 Discussion > RESULTS: Statistical Analysis of MPG -- Long
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=13404
In order of driving style the statistical city/highway MPG results were:
(A) 17.1 / 22.3 MPG
(B) 15.9 / 21.1 MPG
(C) 14.7 / 20.0 MPG
EPA TEST PROCEDURE
RX-8 Discussion > Bad mileage - a talk with the EPA
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=15454
I think some cars have benefited from a new flash or other dealer work, but I haven't tracked those threads.
I am getting 19.X with a mostly (A)-(B) driving style in urban/rural driving; some miles are at style (C). My best was 21.7 MPG at mostly fast expressway speeds, and my worse was 15.7 with many cold-short city drives.
There appear to be diverse views on MPG in the forum, some members think its been beat-to-death and are willing to ~flame at mention of it, and others are willing to research it in detail.
MPG RELATED THREADS
RX-8 Discussion > My current MPG, the saga continues......
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=15404
The Tech Garage > Type of gas(octane/company) varies performance greatly?
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=20976
RX-8 Discussion > An interesting way in which I improved Fuel Economy.
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=21089
ANALYSIS BASED ON DATA SUPPLIED BY FORUM MEMBERS
The most comprehensive MPG reporting I have seen is here:
RX-8 Discussion > Statistical Analysis Approach to Understanding MPG Issue
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=13280
The corresponding results of that analysis are here:
RX-8 Discussion > RESULTS: Statistical Analysis of MPG -- Long
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=13404
In order of driving style the statistical city/highway MPG results were:
(A) 17.1 / 22.3 MPG
(B) 15.9 / 21.1 MPG
(C) 14.7 / 20.0 MPG
EPA TEST PROCEDURE
RX-8 Discussion > Bad mileage - a talk with the EPA
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=15454
Originally posted by Charles Cope
...
Both City and Highway tests were run on a dyno with a 48” diameter roll loading the driving wheels.
The City test is 7.5 miles, stop-and-go, starting with a “cold start”. The average speed is 20 mph, with 18 stops, a hot start in the middle of the test and 18% idle time, to simulate stopping at traffic lights. The test dates back to the 1970’s! The EPA rep admitted that this test may need an update, but said that those in a position to change it were reluctant because of its 30 year history and the ability to do a relative comparison between vehicles has been successful.
The Highway test is 10 miles with a 48 mph average speed and begins with a hot start. There are no stops and little idling time. The max speed is 60 mph.
The numbers posted on the window sticker are derived from the emissions testing described, above. A sample bag of exhaust gas is collected and the gas mileage is determined, based on the amount of unburned hydrocarbons in the sample. City mileage is de-rated 10% from the test result, to reflect “real world” conditions. The highway mileage is de-rated by 22%
...
...
Both City and Highway tests were run on a dyno with a 48” diameter roll loading the driving wheels.
The City test is 7.5 miles, stop-and-go, starting with a “cold start”. The average speed is 20 mph, with 18 stops, a hot start in the middle of the test and 18% idle time, to simulate stopping at traffic lights. The test dates back to the 1970’s! The EPA rep admitted that this test may need an update, but said that those in a position to change it were reluctant because of its 30 year history and the ability to do a relative comparison between vehicles has been successful.
The Highway test is 10 miles with a 48 mph average speed and begins with a hot start. There are no stops and little idling time. The max speed is 60 mph.
The numbers posted on the window sticker are derived from the emissions testing described, above. A sample bag of exhaust gas is collected and the gas mileage is determined, based on the amount of unburned hydrocarbons in the sample. City mileage is de-rated 10% from the test result, to reflect “real world” conditions. The highway mileage is de-rated by 22%
...
I am getting 19.X with a mostly (A)-(B) driving style in urban/rural driving; some miles are at style (C). My best was 21.7 MPG at mostly fast expressway speeds, and my worse was 15.7 with many cold-short city drives.
There appear to be diverse views on MPG in the forum, some members think its been beat-to-death and are willing to ~flame at mention of it, and others are willing to research it in detail.
Last edited by Trx8; 03-15-2004 at 10:25 AM.
03-15-2004 | 08:07 AM
#8
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,571
Likes: 1
I'm Uk person, not sure of US laws but :
"Tom Roush Mazda in Westfield Indiana (By far the scum of the earth) saying that they would not buy back the car without doing the full lemon law procedure."
Theres a procedure for lemon law cars, if it 'passes' that rpocedure he buys it back under the lemon law, if it doesnt its not a lemo , right?
"They also said that Mazda does not warranty flooding, nor does any other manufacturer.They said they "on a one time goodwill basis" they agreed to take care of the matter for me "
They dont warranty crashing onto walls either. Flooding isnt IMO your dealers problem, tho most are helping out, seems covered here by mazda's recovery too. Tho it seems flooding is covered under US warranty?
" What they did was change the oil for gas in the oil and then charge me for it. Gas is still in the oil. "
When you change the oil in an 8 you only get half, the other half is still in the coolers etc, so you only water down the problem.
"They did not change the plugs because it would have cost me a couple hundred dollars."
Fair nuff, you wouldnt pay, but seems most people in UK get free replacementplugs when neded, and its on the owners manual to replace plugs etc within 9k miles if a problem.
"Basically the dealership is lying to the attourney general. Im forced to flood the car 3 more times and tow it back and forth to the dealership, which basically is killing the car."
You've been forced to flood the car? by whome? stop flooding your car!
"They also said that "sports cars" were more tempermental than normal cars. They never said a word about flooding or gas mileage to me before I bought the car."
Flooding is a problem, but will get worse with EVERY car due to new emmisions laws. Caused by dumping fuel to flame grill the CAT up to temp - which hits gas milage...
And MPG realy 100% depends on how you drive the car, under 3k and light right foot = better MPG, by 25% +.
"Tom Roush Mazda in Westfield Indiana (By far the scum of the earth) saying that they would not buy back the car without doing the full lemon law procedure."
Theres a procedure for lemon law cars, if it 'passes' that rpocedure he buys it back under the lemon law, if it doesnt its not a lemo , right?
"They also said that Mazda does not warranty flooding, nor does any other manufacturer.They said they "on a one time goodwill basis" they agreed to take care of the matter for me "
They dont warranty crashing onto walls either. Flooding isnt IMO your dealers problem, tho most are helping out, seems covered here by mazda's recovery too. Tho it seems flooding is covered under US warranty?
" What they did was change the oil for gas in the oil and then charge me for it. Gas is still in the oil. "
When you change the oil in an 8 you only get half, the other half is still in the coolers etc, so you only water down the problem.
"They did not change the plugs because it would have cost me a couple hundred dollars."
Fair nuff, you wouldnt pay, but seems most people in UK get free replacementplugs when neded, and its on the owners manual to replace plugs etc within 9k miles if a problem.
"Basically the dealership is lying to the attourney general. Im forced to flood the car 3 more times and tow it back and forth to the dealership, which basically is killing the car."
You've been forced to flood the car? by whome? stop flooding your car!
"They also said that "sports cars" were more tempermental than normal cars. They never said a word about flooding or gas mileage to me before I bought the car."
Flooding is a problem, but will get worse with EVERY car due to new emmisions laws. Caused by dumping fuel to flame grill the CAT up to temp - which hits gas milage...
And MPG realy 100% depends on how you drive the car, under 3k and light right foot = better MPG, by 25% +.