New article on Mazda/RX-8
10-01-2002, 07:57 AM
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New article on Mazda/RX-8
http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=39124
Mazda is returning to its sporty roots with the introduction of the RX8 sports car next year while the Mazda 6-based MPS concept car unveiled at the Paris Motor Show could also go into production.
Research and development chief Joseph Bakaj said a new version of the enduring MX-5 two-seater is also under way.
Although Mazda is now developing cars jointly with parent company Ford, Bakaj said the Mazda DNA would be very clear in all its versions.
"They are very different cars to drive. We might jointly develop the vehicles and their component parts, but we build in enough flexibility to fine tune the chassis and engines to suit our own tastes."
The RX8 is now in its final development stage and will be a real showcase for the brand.
"It is a unique car," said Bakaj. It is a true four seater but it is no sports saloon, it is a no-compromise sports car. No one has done that successfully before.
"As such it has no real competition although you might look towards the high performance versions of the BMW 3-series or Alfa Romeo - but it really does not fit into any category."
There were a number of problems to overcome to produce a four-door sports car. "We had to keep it light, with a low centre of gravity while retaining good body stiffness."
By moving the engine back towards the cabin and the fuel tank forward, weight has been centralised reducing yaw intertia. Mazda's rotary engine can also be mounted lower than a conventional motor so improving the car's centre of gravity.
"Body rigidity is also stiffer than the old RX-7 sports car," added Bakaj. "Even though that only had two doors, while weight is also lower than the old model thanks to using aluminium suspension parts and through designing weight out using computer aided engineering."
There is no time scale yet for the updated MX-5 but Bakaj said Mazda would stick to the original concept of a simple, lightweight and affordable two-seater.
"The MX-5 has been one of Mazda's real success stories. It still looks great and has an extraordinary reputation for reliability - customers keep wanting to come back."
Bakaj said that the new MCX-5 would not share its underpinnings with any Ford models. "It will keep its unique platform," he added.
Mazda is returning to its sporty roots with the introduction of the RX8 sports car next year while the Mazda 6-based MPS concept car unveiled at the Paris Motor Show could also go into production.
Research and development chief Joseph Bakaj said a new version of the enduring MX-5 two-seater is also under way.
Although Mazda is now developing cars jointly with parent company Ford, Bakaj said the Mazda DNA would be very clear in all its versions.
"They are very different cars to drive. We might jointly develop the vehicles and their component parts, but we build in enough flexibility to fine tune the chassis and engines to suit our own tastes."
The RX8 is now in its final development stage and will be a real showcase for the brand.
"It is a unique car," said Bakaj. It is a true four seater but it is no sports saloon, it is a no-compromise sports car. No one has done that successfully before.
"As such it has no real competition although you might look towards the high performance versions of the BMW 3-series or Alfa Romeo - but it really does not fit into any category."
There were a number of problems to overcome to produce a four-door sports car. "We had to keep it light, with a low centre of gravity while retaining good body stiffness."
By moving the engine back towards the cabin and the fuel tank forward, weight has been centralised reducing yaw intertia. Mazda's rotary engine can also be mounted lower than a conventional motor so improving the car's centre of gravity.
"Body rigidity is also stiffer than the old RX-7 sports car," added Bakaj. "Even though that only had two doors, while weight is also lower than the old model thanks to using aluminium suspension parts and through designing weight out using computer aided engineering."
There is no time scale yet for the updated MX-5 but Bakaj said Mazda would stick to the original concept of a simple, lightweight and affordable two-seater.
"The MX-5 has been one of Mazda's real success stories. It still looks great and has an extraordinary reputation for reliability - customers keep wanting to come back."
Bakaj said that the new MCX-5 would not share its underpinnings with any Ford models. "It will keep its unique platform," he added.
10-01-2002, 08:12 AM
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Always glad to get news from any source on Mazda stuff. Pleased to hear that Mazda will keep many things on their cars from Mazda. Ford may have the $$, but a Mazda is a Mazda and ought to stay that way, or else I'd buy a Ford (Arg!). Mazda V-6's are the smoothest I've driven, even better than the one in the Lexus ES. Everyone who rides in my Milennia comments about the car, especially the smooth and quiet ride.
Gimmie my MazdaSpeed RX-8 Now!!
Gimmie my MazdaSpeed RX-8 Now!!
10-01-2002, 11:32 AM
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Expected weight
"weight is also lower than the old model" is the first thing that I noticed as well. Good news!
"...It is a true four seater but it is no sports saloon, it is a no-compromise sports car..." It's starting to sound more and more like a updated RX-7 with two usable seats in the back, and not a rotary powered sporty sedan.
"...It is a true four seater but it is no sports saloon, it is a no-compromise sports car..." It's starting to sound more and more like a updated RX-7 with two usable seats in the back, and not a rotary powered sporty sedan.
10-01-2002, 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by Snowman
Has anyone else caught this? "weight is also lower than the old model"... Are we looking at a 2700 lb RX-8?! Oh boy oh boy!
Has anyone else caught this? "weight is also lower than the old model"... Are we looking at a 2700 lb RX-8?! Oh boy oh boy!
---jps
10-01-2002, 03:36 PM
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If weight is 270 lbs less than what we are anticipating (around 2970 lbs), then I'll eat my hat. I don't see how it could possibly be lighter than the RX-7, with 2 extra seats, more luxury doo-dads, and extra chassis stiffness.
If it really is 2700 lbs when it comes out, I'd be so happy that I'd garnish that hat with a shoe.
If it really is 2700 lbs when it comes out, I'd be so happy that I'd garnish that hat with a shoe.
10-01-2002, 06:12 PM
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Weight
"weight is also lower than the old model"... Are we looking at a 2700 lb RX-8?!
10-02-2002, 10:25 AM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"weight is also lower than the old model"... Are we looking at a 2700 lb RX-8?!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In March, I posted the below:
I am still hoping that Mazda will have another "operation gram per head" like they did to cut 250 lbs from the 2nd gen before production but think that it's likely that the rx-8 will come in around 28** lbs.
and I still believe the rx-8 will come in with a 28** lb weight. The weight and the gearing ratios are still the 2 of the most important specs which we don't have any solid information on. While searching for more info on these subjects, I did come across an old article regarding weight goals of the evolve at the below link:
http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/m...article01.html
In the article, Martin Leach (previous Mazda R&D chief) advised:
"Another target is a curb weight of 2626 pounds, and to get there, Leach says he’s set up a “gram force” to cut weight. Another goal for the RX-Evolv is a sub-five-second 0-to-60-mph time, so the car promises to be breathtakingly quick."
Of course, many things have changed since the evolv. The rx-8 will not have 276 hp, 10k rev limit, id access card, etc. I still do think that the rx-8 will weigh 28** lbs and do 0-60 in (a little) less than 6 seconds though.
Brian
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"weight is also lower than the old model"... Are we looking at a 2700 lb RX-8?!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In March, I posted the below:
I am still hoping that Mazda will have another "operation gram per head" like they did to cut 250 lbs from the 2nd gen before production but think that it's likely that the rx-8 will come in around 28** lbs.
and I still believe the rx-8 will come in with a 28** lb weight. The weight and the gearing ratios are still the 2 of the most important specs which we don't have any solid information on. While searching for more info on these subjects, I did come across an old article regarding weight goals of the evolve at the below link:
http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/m...article01.html
In the article, Martin Leach (previous Mazda R&D chief) advised:
"Another target is a curb weight of 2626 pounds, and to get there, Leach says he’s set up a “gram force” to cut weight. Another goal for the RX-Evolv is a sub-five-second 0-to-60-mph time, so the car promises to be breathtakingly quick."
Of course, many things have changed since the evolv. The rx-8 will not have 276 hp, 10k rev limit, id access card, etc. I still do think that the rx-8 will weigh 28** lbs and do 0-60 in (a little) less than 6 seconds though.
Brian
10-02-2002, 11:38 AM
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Of course the quote from Mazda's current R&D chief (Joseph Bakaj) is much more significant from an old quote from the previous chief (Martin Leach).
In the article at: http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=39124 (thanks Rich)
In comparing the rx-8 to the 3rd gen rx-7, Baklaj CLEARLY says:
"Even though that only had two doors, while weight is also lower than the old model thanks to using aluminium suspension parts and through designing weight out using computer aided engineering."
Below are the Curb weights for the different models of the third gen rx-7:
2,789lbs Base Model with 5 Speed Manual
2,857lbs Base Model with 4 Speed Automatic
2,800lbs R1 (5 Speed only, no Automatic available)
2,862lbs Touring Model with 5 Speed
2,923lbs Touring Model with 4 Speed Automatic
Taking Baklaj's quote to heart, the most conservative person can conclude that teh rx-8 will definitely be lighter than 2923 lbs.
Taking it at face value, the base rx-8 might be less than 2,789lbs ?!?!?!?
The prototype which was tested by Road and Track had an "estimated 2970 lb " curb weight.
From Road & Track's website:
Our Curb weight measurement is taken with a full fuel tank, but no driver (below). Test weight includes our tester and whatever fuel is in the tank (most of the time it’s full).
Is there any precedent to expect that Mazda can lose 200 lbs from one of it's prototypes? The answer is YES!
For more information on "Operation Gram Per Head" read the below passage is from "sports car color history Mazda RX-7" by John Matras:
[Uchiyama] launched: "Operation Gram Per Head," in which every designer and engineer working on P747 (2nd gen) was asked to devise a way to save one gram from the weight of the car. The staff dismantled a prototype - by this time complete cars were running and being evaluated - and spread the parts on rows of mats on the floor of the design center's auditorium for the designers and engineers to pick and choose for weight reduction.
OGPH was so successful that over 250 lbs were pared from the prototype. Many parts of the car were changed from fabricated steel to forged aluminum. Among these were:
A-arms (saved 4.4 lbs each)
wheel hubs front and rear (saved 14.7 lbs per car)
engine bracket (saved 2.4 lbs)
final drive rear cover and mounting bracket (saved 4.4 lbs)
jack (saved 3 lbs)
Given Mazda's passion and experience with producing lightweight cars, I would dare to hope that a 2770 lb base rx-8 may be possible. By the way, in case any of you were wondering where the 2626 lb weight goal of Martin Leach came from, OGPH lowered the weight of the 2nd gen prototype so that the base rx-7 in 1986 had a curb weight of... you guessed it 2626 lbs.
The main constraint on the weight loss would be the price of replacing the steel components with aluminum. While the rx-8 has certain price constraints to be successful enough for mass production, the future rx-7 (if the 8 sells well) could be made lighter still for the enthusiasts out there willing to pay a few more dollars for ultimate performance.
After all of that, I am still expecting a curb weight of 28** lbs because I don't want to set myself up for too much disappointment. Sorry if I got anybody too excited.
Brian
In the article at: http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=39124 (thanks Rich)
In comparing the rx-8 to the 3rd gen rx-7, Baklaj CLEARLY says:
"Even though that only had two doors, while weight is also lower than the old model thanks to using aluminium suspension parts and through designing weight out using computer aided engineering."
Below are the Curb weights for the different models of the third gen rx-7:
2,789lbs Base Model with 5 Speed Manual
2,857lbs Base Model with 4 Speed Automatic
2,800lbs R1 (5 Speed only, no Automatic available)
2,862lbs Touring Model with 5 Speed
2,923lbs Touring Model with 4 Speed Automatic
Taking Baklaj's quote to heart, the most conservative person can conclude that teh rx-8 will definitely be lighter than 2923 lbs.
Taking it at face value, the base rx-8 might be less than 2,789lbs ?!?!?!?
The prototype which was tested by Road and Track had an "estimated 2970 lb " curb weight.
From Road & Track's website:
Our Curb weight measurement is taken with a full fuel tank, but no driver (below). Test weight includes our tester and whatever fuel is in the tank (most of the time it’s full).
Is there any precedent to expect that Mazda can lose 200 lbs from one of it's prototypes? The answer is YES!
For more information on "Operation Gram Per Head" read the below passage is from "sports car color history Mazda RX-7" by John Matras:
[Uchiyama] launched: "Operation Gram Per Head," in which every designer and engineer working on P747 (2nd gen) was asked to devise a way to save one gram from the weight of the car. The staff dismantled a prototype - by this time complete cars were running and being evaluated - and spread the parts on rows of mats on the floor of the design center's auditorium for the designers and engineers to pick and choose for weight reduction.
OGPH was so successful that over 250 lbs were pared from the prototype. Many parts of the car were changed from fabricated steel to forged aluminum. Among these were:
A-arms (saved 4.4 lbs each)
wheel hubs front and rear (saved 14.7 lbs per car)
engine bracket (saved 2.4 lbs)
final drive rear cover and mounting bracket (saved 4.4 lbs)
jack (saved 3 lbs)
Given Mazda's passion and experience with producing lightweight cars, I would dare to hope that a 2770 lb base rx-8 may be possible. By the way, in case any of you were wondering where the 2626 lb weight goal of Martin Leach came from, OGPH lowered the weight of the 2nd gen prototype so that the base rx-7 in 1986 had a curb weight of... you guessed it 2626 lbs.
The main constraint on the weight loss would be the price of replacing the steel components with aluminum. While the rx-8 has certain price constraints to be successful enough for mass production, the future rx-7 (if the 8 sells well) could be made lighter still for the enthusiasts out there willing to pay a few more dollars for ultimate performance.
After all of that, I am still expecting a curb weight of 28** lbs because I don't want to set myself up for too much disappointment. Sorry if I got anybody too excited.
Brian
10-02-2002, 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by Buger
BTW, I'll eat my hat too if the Rx-8 comes in under 2770 lbs. :D
Brian
BTW, I'll eat my hat too if the Rx-8 comes in under 2770 lbs. :D
Brian
10-03-2002, 05:34 PM
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I'm still amazed on this projected weight
Do you guys realize how fast this car could be if the RX-8 tipped the scales in the 2700 to low 2800lb range?!?! Given the dyno chart of the Renesis with good gear ratios, were talking a really fast car. I was thinking about Bugers mentioning of the "gram per head" project. If Mazda is going through such lengths as a carbon fiber (or some other composite) drive shaft, aluminum suspension parts (supposedly), then I have to believe they are really taking extreme measures to reduce weight. I remember Mazda mentioning in their advertising scheme that the sun visors were made of some mesh material in efforts to reduce weight. Reminds me of the advertising scheme of the last gen RX-7:
"The only brake pedal designed to make you go faster"
And thus the start of drilled pedals to shave a few grams.
I'm trying to guesstimate 0-60 and 1/4mi times of this car if it came in at around or under 2800lbs. It seems to me that well under 6 seconds to sixty and mid 14's for the 1/4 should come easy.
"The only brake pedal designed to make you go faster"
And thus the start of drilled pedals to shave a few grams.
I'm trying to guesstimate 0-60 and 1/4mi times of this car if it came in at around or under 2800lbs. It seems to me that well under 6 seconds to sixty and mid 14's for the 1/4 should come easy.
Last edited by rxtreme; 10-03-2002 at 05:37 PM.
10-03-2002, 07:53 PM
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rxtreme,
I'm really hoping that they go through the same drastic measures to trim weight like they did on the RX-7. A sub-2700 lb RX-8 would be amazing!
I remember the ad campaign for the RX-7 and it was refreshing that they were so determined to keep the car lightweight, while the competition just kept getting heavier and heavier.
iluvmyrx7.com has some, if not all, of those print ads for the RX-7.
I'm really hoping that they go through the same drastic measures to trim weight like they did on the RX-7. A sub-2700 lb RX-8 would be amazing!
I remember the ad campaign for the RX-7 and it was refreshing that they were so determined to keep the car lightweight, while the competition just kept getting heavier and heavier.
iluvmyrx7.com has some, if not all, of those print ads for the RX-7.
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