a new epic, pistons or rotors..
09-11-2003, 04:10 PM
#27
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Originally posted by U. N. O.
i feel that maybe but unless something serious is done about it, it will die eventually, just as it did with the rx-7s maybe 2006 will be the last year, that will make the cicle of 3 years in the market... meanwhile, pistons will get better and better it seems.. the thoought of a 2.5L 4cilinder, tubot at low psi can generate 300 hp is very compromising and to avera 18-20 in city driving!
i feel that maybe but unless something serious is done about it, it will die eventually, just as it did with the rx-7s maybe 2006 will be the last year, that will make the cicle of 3 years in the market... meanwhile, pistons will get better and better it seems.. the thoought of a 2.5L 4cilinder, tubot at low psi can generate 300 hp is very compromising and to avera 18-20 in city driving!
revhappy which Honda engine has a better T curve than the renesis and what is your criteria for better?
09-11-2003, 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by DonG35Miata
LOL I am deluded? Denial isn't a river in Egypt, you know...
THE RENESIS DOES NOT MAKE THE 247 HP AS WAS ADVERTISED IN THE USA. It can be 247 hp J-SPEC or 900 hp Mars-Spec and it does not matter. We are talking US engines here. Spin it all you want. I don't care if it is an ECU, or exhaust, or phases of the moon. The engine does not make 247 hp. Most people on here don't even think it is making the 238 hp number you gave.
Boy am I sorry I posted again. I do see some evidence of some lucid thought here, but not much!
Didn't think you would take my bet.
See you in 2006 though. I'll be back to make my victory post. Just put it in my Palm Pilot schedule.
LOL I am deluded? Denial isn't a river in Egypt, you know...
THE RENESIS DOES NOT MAKE THE 247 HP AS WAS ADVERTISED IN THE USA. It can be 247 hp J-SPEC or 900 hp Mars-Spec and it does not matter. We are talking US engines here. Spin it all you want. I don't care if it is an ECU, or exhaust, or phases of the moon. The engine does not make 247 hp. Most people on here don't even think it is making the 238 hp number you gave.
Boy am I sorry I posted again. I do see some evidence of some lucid thought here, but not much!
Didn't think you would take my bet.
See you in 2006 though. I'll be back to make my victory post. Just put it in my Palm Pilot schedule.
BTW - under your "Occam's Razor" theory I will hypothesize that your Palm Pilot will not still be in operation in 2006 (simplest line of logic is that based on average life expectancy of the Palm product it will not function for 2 more years) so i hope you remember to check in.
In your now famous Occam's Razor post you never said anything about USA -- you said the Renesis engine -- using Japan tests and dyno's doesn't produce the HP -- see your own quote ---
Using Occam's Razor on the RX-8, with the tests from Japan and the dyno numbers as evidence, it would seem that the Hi-Power Renesis just doesn't produce the advertised horsepower. That's all. Simple, Logical. And unfortunate.
[/QUOTE]
I guess you had better put your Occam's Razor theories on the BMW and Porsche boards because the BMW M3 or 911 don't make the advertised HP - the dyno doesn't produce accurate results on these cars either due to the sophisticated engine management systems.
Hope you enjoy your Mini -- everytime I check that board it makes me glad I got an 8 -- talk about product problems and defects
09-11-2003, 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by mikeb
I dont blame rxhusker for not making a bet
thus far mazda has not proved themselves to be a safe bet
I dont blame rxhusker for not making a bet
thus far mazda has not proved themselves to be a safe bet
09-11-2003, 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by zoom44
revhappy which Honda engine has a better T curve than the renesis and what is your criteria for better?
revhappy which Honda engine has a better T curve than the renesis and what is your criteria for better?
09-11-2003, 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by RXhusker
Seems to me I took the bet -- just not the dollar bet - based on my principles and values :D $50 bucks in nothing -- but I don't place wagers for money based on my own personal beliefs. This doesn't reflect my confidence in the 8 or in Mazda.
Seems to me I took the bet -- just not the dollar bet - based on my principles and values :D $50 bucks in nothing -- but I don't place wagers for money based on my own personal beliefs. This doesn't reflect my confidence in the 8 or in Mazda.
so RXhusker , would you say that at this age in time the rotor engine is a better "bet" ( :D ) than a piston? if so why?
09-11-2003, 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by revhappy
The S2000 and the RSX-S. The RSX-S's toque curve was very close to the original Renesis torque curve that was published late last year. The new Renesis torque curve drops like a rock after 6,250 RPMS. In fact, its sort of similar the EVO's. Of course, the EVO produces a lot more wheel torque and there are pretty cheap solutions to making it pull to redline.
The S2000 and the RSX-S. The RSX-S's toque curve was very close to the original Renesis torque curve that was published late last year. The new Renesis torque curve drops like a rock after 6,250 RPMS. In fact, its sort of similar the EVO's. Of course, the EVO produces a lot more wheel torque and there are pretty cheap solutions to making it pull to redline.
09-11-2003, 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by revhappy
The S2000 and the RSX-S. The RSX-S's toque curve was very close to the original Renesis torque curve that was published late last year. The new Renesis torque curve drops like a rock after 6,250 RPMS. In fact, its sort of similar the EVO's. Of course, the EVO produces a lot more wheel torque and there are pretty cheap solutions to making it pull to redline.
The S2000 and the RSX-S. The RSX-S's toque curve was very close to the original Renesis torque curve that was published late last year. The new Renesis torque curve drops like a rock after 6,250 RPMS. In fact, its sort of similar the EVO's. Of course, the EVO produces a lot more wheel torque and there are pretty cheap solutions to making it pull to redline.
09-11-2003, 04:37 PM
#38
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Originally posted by revhappy
The S2000 and the RSX-S. The RSX-S's toque curve was very close to the original Renesis torque curve that was published late last year. The new Renesis torque curve drops like a rock after 6,250 RPMS. In fact, its sort of similar the EVO's. Of course, the EVO produces a lot more wheel torque and there are pretty cheap solutions to making it pull to redline.
The S2000 and the RSX-S. The RSX-S's toque curve was very close to the original Renesis torque curve that was published late last year. The new Renesis torque curve drops like a rock after 6,250 RPMS. In fact, its sort of similar the EVO's. Of course, the EVO produces a lot more wheel torque and there are pretty cheap solutions to making it pull to redline.
09-11-2003, 04:39 PM
#39
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Originally posted by U. N. O.
sorry but how vegue...
i rose a couple of questions about that post can YOU answer them?
sorry but how vegue...
i rose a couple of questions about that post can YOU answer them?
here they are:
and you last point is that a 280 hp rotary would cost a lot more, so pistons are more affordable.
so what if the engine is smaller/lighter the question remains, does it perform equal, superior, or inferior than a piston? i guess the technology/time is not right for this type of engine just yet..
Last edited by zoom44; 09-11-2003 at 04:45 PM.
09-11-2003, 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by RXhusker
[B]
I wouldn't say most people don't think it makes 238 HP -- more of your false logic. A few malcontents -- most of whom don't even own the car keep that myth alive.
BTW - under your "Occam's Razor" theory I will hypothesize that your Palm Pilot will not still be in operation in 2006 (simplest line of logic is that based on average life expectancy of the Palm product it will not function for 2 more years) so i hope you remember to check in.
In your now famous Occam's Razor post you never said anything about USA -- you said the Renesis engine -- using Japan tests and dyno's doesn't produce the HP -- see your own quote ---
Using Occam's Razor on the RX-8, with the tests from Japan and the dyno numbers as evidence, it would seem that the Hi-Power Renesis just doesn't produce the advertised horsepower. That's all. Simple, Logical. And unfortunate.
I guess you had better put your Occam's Razor theories on the BMW and Porsche boards because the BMW M3 or 911 don't make the advertised HP - the dyno doesn't produce accurate results on these cars either due to the sophisticated engine management systems.
Hope you enjoy your Mini -- everytime I check that board it makes me glad I got an 8 -- talk about product problems and defects
[B]
I wouldn't say most people don't think it makes 238 HP -- more of your false logic. A few malcontents -- most of whom don't even own the car keep that myth alive.
BTW - under your "Occam's Razor" theory I will hypothesize that your Palm Pilot will not still be in operation in 2006 (simplest line of logic is that based on average life expectancy of the Palm product it will not function for 2 more years) so i hope you remember to check in.
In your now famous Occam's Razor post you never said anything about USA -- you said the Renesis engine -- using Japan tests and dyno's doesn't produce the HP -- see your own quote ---
Using Occam's Razor on the RX-8, with the tests from Japan and the dyno numbers as evidence, it would seem that the Hi-Power Renesis just doesn't produce the advertised horsepower. That's all. Simple, Logical. And unfortunate.
I guess you had better put your Occam's Razor theories on the BMW and Porsche boards because the BMW M3 or 911 don't make the advertised HP - the dyno doesn't produce accurate results on these cars either due to the sophisticated engine management systems.
Hope you enjoy your Mini -- everytime I check that board it makes me glad I got an 8 -- talk about product problems and defects
Do whatever mental gymnsatics you want. All the tall about ECUs, Occam's Razor, etc don't mean a hill of beans whether it comes from you or from me. What matters is #1 the Renesis is not remarkably powerful and #2 it sucks gas WAY out of proportion of its performance or power level. I think the rationalizations of U.N.O., canzoomer, TomsterRX8, and Chadr regarding the car and the rotary are accurate and will reflect the public at large. The marketplace isn't stupid and won't support such a product for long.
09-11-2003, 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by DonG35Miata
The marketplace isn't stupid and won't support such a product for long.
The marketplace isn't stupid and won't support such a product for long.
#2 How long has the Sebring been on the market?
09-11-2003, 04:49 PM
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quote:Originally posted by bwayout
Maybe someone can point me in the right direction -- but why do rotary engines come out producing a much poorer MPG than a piston engine?
I'm not a scientist or enginer, but I would have thought that with a rotary engine being such an elegantly simple, more powerful and smaller machine that it would easly do much better than the average 4 pistoned engine?
Maybe someone can point me in the right direction -- but why do rotary engines come out producing a much poorer MPG than a piston engine?
I'm not a scientist or enginer, but I would have thought that with a rotary engine being such an elegantly simple, more powerful and smaller machine that it would easly do much better than the average 4 pistoned engine?
Originally posted by RX8-TX
I guess one of the reasons is its cycle rate...idle speeds are higher than a regular piston (recipro.) engine.
I guess one of the reasons is its cycle rate...idle speeds are higher than a regular piston (recipro.) engine.
I hope that Mazda's engineers are working on slowing the idle speeds or trying some kind of hybrid combination to get better MPG ...
09-11-2003, 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by zoom44
agreed but with one caveat: the us torque curve, as we still need to see stock japanese curves(unless i have missed them) from one or more of the owners there.
agreed but with one caveat: the us torque curve, as we still need to see stock japanese curves(unless i have missed them) from one or more of the owners there.
I even have my doubts about the Japanese RX8. To get obliterated that bad by the new ITR (in the US it'd be the RSX-R with ~ 217 hp and ~ 2700 lbs.)and the S2000 seems to indicate its not making its high-end power (I'm not convinced it was "sticking ports").
The bottom line is that the Honda 4 bangers are better small engines for sporty cars in the real world because they are more well-rounded.
09-11-2003, 04:51 PM
#44
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What matters is #1 the Renesis is not remarkably powerful and #2 it sucks gas WAY out of proportion of its performance or power level.
but on #1 i'm here to tell you that you are wrong. this engine IS remarkably powerful for it's size and weight.
09-11-2003, 04:51 PM
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My humble opinion.
I think the rotary engine will have a great future. I see the poor MPG issue as not so much of an issue, its most likely because of "green" engines. I wont be surprised if RX-8 owners will be reporting a better MPG a year from now.
With regards to torque, sure the current Renesis does not have a lot, but thats a factor of displacement. We cant expect a 1.3L engine to have gobs of torque like a V6/V8. The 159lb/ft is what the average 2.0L 4 cylinder engine is getting. However, Mazda can solve this dilemna if they do like Subaru has done with their engines ... add a Turbo!
With regards to torque, sure the current Renesis does not have a lot, but thats a factor of displacement. We cant expect a 1.3L engine to have gobs of torque like a V6/V8. The 159lb/ft is what the average 2.0L 4 cylinder engine is getting. However, Mazda can solve this dilemna if they do like Subaru has done with their engines ... add a Turbo!
Last edited by Tweety-nator; 09-11-2003 at 04:53 PM.
09-11-2003, 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by revhappy
The key is that an engine must be well-rounded to succeed. It can produce 10,000 HP and get 100 MPG, but if it fails US emissions, its not going to be on our shores.
I even have my doubts about the Japanese RX8. To get obliterated that bad by the new ITR (in the US it'd be the RSX-R with ~ 217 hp and ~ 2700 lbs.)and the S2000 seems to indicate its not making its high-end power (I'm not convinced it was "sticking ports").
The bottom line is that the Honda 4 bangers are better small engines for sporty cars in the real world because they are more well-rounded.
The key is that an engine must be well-rounded to succeed. It can produce 10,000 HP and get 100 MPG, but if it fails US emissions, its not going to be on our shores.
I even have my doubts about the Japanese RX8. To get obliterated that bad by the new ITR (in the US it'd be the RSX-R with ~ 217 hp and ~ 2700 lbs.)and the S2000 seems to indicate its not making its high-end power (I'm not convinced it was "sticking ports").
The bottom line is that the Honda 4 bangers are better small engines for sporty cars in the real world because they are more well-rounded.
Last edited by RX8-TX; 09-11-2003 at 05:06 PM.
09-11-2003, 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by U. N. O.
hope is always the last resort for the despered ones..
so RXhusker , would you say that at this age in time the rotor engine is a better "bet" ( :D ) than a piston? if so why?
hope is always the last resort for the despered ones..
so RXhusker , would you say that at this age in time the rotor engine is a better "bet" ( :D ) than a piston? if so why?
SUV - Piston
Pick-up Truck - Piston
Mini Van - Piston
Family Sedan - Piston
Semi Truck - Piston (diesel)
SPORTS CAR - ROTARY
This is my opinion based on what I prefer. High reving, lightweight sports cars. Others prefer brute power with little refinement (Mustang, etal) Many people forget that it is not the power to the wheels that makes the rotary great for sports car applications -- it is what the inherent benefits of the rotary bring to the table for engineering the REST of the CAR. Handling, feel, sound, body design, weight distribution, etc. Any engine can make HP - it is the unique characteristics of a particular engine that make it the right fit for a specific application.
People also forget that the RX-8 is not just the Renesis engine. It is the total driving package that Mazda's engineers have put together. We don't sit around talking about the Miata's engine -- we talk about the way it drives :D Same goes for the 8. If I was 5'8" and didn't have kids I may have gotten a Miata -- but I can't sit in it and my kids can't come with us
09-11-2003, 04:55 PM
#48
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Originally posted by bwayout
Hey, RX8-TX thanks for an answer that I can understand!
I hope that Mazda's engineers are working on slowing the idle speeds or trying some kind of hybrid combination to get better MPG ...
Hey, RX8-TX thanks for an answer that I can understand!
I hope that Mazda's engineers are working on slowing the idle speeds or trying some kind of hybrid combination to get better MPG ...
09-11-2003, 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by RXhusker
People also forget that the RX-8 is not just the Renesis engine. It is the total driving package that Mazda's engineers have put together. We don't sit around talking about the Miata's engine -- we talk about the way it drives :D Same goes for the 8. If I was 5'8" and didn't have kids I may have gotten a Miata -- but I can't sit in it and my kids can't come with us
People also forget that the RX-8 is not just the Renesis engine. It is the total driving package that Mazda's engineers have put together. We don't sit around talking about the Miata's engine -- we talk about the way it drives :D Same goes for the 8. If I was 5'8" and didn't have kids I may have gotten a Miata -- but I can't sit in it and my kids can't come with us
I dont think the MPG for the RX-8 is that bad, I mean its only 1MPG lower than my (soon to arrive) 350Z. Its quite acceptable for a sports car.
09-11-2003, 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by zoom44
hey you didn't like my muddled-brain answer? :p and did you see my answer in the other thread concerning hybrids?
hey you didn't like my muddled-brain answer? :p and did you see my answer in the other thread concerning hybrids?
And Bwayout: take my explanation with a grain of salt; I am no mechanic nor engineer.