fxdsconv2000

Not very many people on this forum want to hear you complain about the horsepower issue.
Let me put it this way.

You had the chance to test drive the car. If you did not like it Don't buy it. If you are worried about horsepower have the dealer put it on a dyno before you buy. Then you can deside to buy or not to buy. Then you know exactly what horsepower (RWHP) you are getting. If you don't like it don't buy it!!!!!!

Don't come on this form and bitch about the horsepower!! We don't want to hear it and we don't care!!!!!!! (I'm only speaking for myself, but I think most forum members will agree)

Mazda did the honorable thing by offering to buy back the cars that were pre-ordered. Respect Mazda for that. Don't bitch and complain now.

Ok the Crown and Coke is kicking in, time for me to go

had to edit cause my wife caught some spelling errors Damn that Crown and coke

rodmeister

A lot of car buyers are obsessed with HP, as if a 250 HP car is inherently superior to a 225 HP car. It's kind of an American thing: bigger and faster is better. People like that should buy Mustangs and the like, cars optimized for low quarter mile times and 0-60, but generally very crude cars.

I'm into pistols and a lot of pistol afficienados are obsessed with power. Bigger and heavier. It's also a guy thing. But these guys buy ridiculously overpowered pistols, like the new S&W .500, fire it once, feel the punishing recoil, and either never fire it again or use a weaker subload. But it gives them bragging rights. "So you only have a .44 magnum, I have a .50 caliber."

Don't get me wrong, fast cars are great and we all want to have fast cars, but all cars are compromises of speed, turning perfomance, ride comfort, features and cost. The overall package should be the criterion not just one performance parameter.

I'm enjoying my RX-8 with its responsiveness, great brakes, quiet cabin, relatively smooth ride for a sports car, and a very reasonable sticker price. Getting another 50 HP via a supercharger would be icing on the cake. But you have to accept the RX-8 for what is.

VikingDJ

Well said. I knew I was buying an underpowered car compared to many others in price range, but to me it didn't matter. I admit if this car had another 50whp, I'd be in absolute heaven, but I had to go with complete package, instead of consuming myself with speed. I will say that the hp numbers and estimated times do not exactly fit right with what car actually does, but if that was your criteria going into purchase, then you should have been smart enough to do your research and know what you were in for. Anyone who complains about the power should have never gotten car. It doesn't mean you can't be disappointed, but it's something you should either quickly get over and accept, or prepare for your modifications to get the power you want. Complaining about it just makes no sense. Instead of complaining, people need to put down some money, and add power til it meets your liking. Just my .02.

RX8Lover

I think that as soon as the word "horsepower" appears in a thread title, it should automatically be deleted. Odds are that it has been a topic that has been discussed to DEATH.

memrie

The horsepower issue being discussed reminds me of the Intel/AMD processor battle. Intel has their 3.0 Ghz processors. AMD has their Athlon XP 3.0 Ghz processors. The difference is that AMD actually runs at 2.1 Ghz but its performance equals that to a 3.0 Intel processor. AMD markets it this way so the average consumer won't think they are buying a "slower" computer than its competitor.

I feel that in some ways, the 8 is AMD. Regardless of the listed horsepower, even if its only 200hp, it still has put up great numbers comparable to its competition.

My 2 cents.

mjd

Regarding the HP, I test drove an automatic and a manual. I love them both. I could care less about the HP. I bought for the looks/style of the car. Believe me, the car will get looks/questions no matter if you have the 200 HP or 240 HP engine. Either way, it is still an RX-8 and a ton of people would love to have one, no matter what the HP numbers are.

EightMan

actually I'm not at all bothered by 12 less horsepower, We can make that up with intake and exhaust, there's your 250 hp, stop complaining. The car feels plenty fast to me, it handles very well, I love the look, and it's a great car that I plan to keep around for a few years. Also one last thing, if you don't like the HP it puts out, there's plenty of RX-7 motors out there, do a swap. Obviously you bought the car because you liked it, so stop bitching.

Ike

I've never bitched about it, I've debated it plenty however. I did my loudest talking by not buying one because of the lackluster acceleration, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Yes it handles great, but you seem to think you can't have your cake and eat it to. You love your car now, are you actually saying you wouldn't love it more with another 20hp or even another 30hp if the 250hp claims had been for real.

fxdsconv2000

Thats not what I'm saying. I do love my car and I would love it more if I had the extra horsepower. What I'm saying is that everyone that bought thier cars (after the pre-order people) had the chance to test drive it. If they didn't like it they shouldn't have bought it. It is pointless for someone who bought the car after test driving it, to whine about the horsepower. Plus I don't know of anyone who took thier motor out of the car and put it on a dyno, so no one can say for sure what horsepower (at the crank) they are getting.

rx8rookie

I generally agree with what you are saying...

I did not buy an RX8 yet, but am looking and am very interested.

The car might be underpowered, that is true. But - that is fine with me. The thing that really turns me off is the MPG. I know I know - this is another "endless discussion" subject, yeah...

My point is - you know, for an average consumer, it should really not matter if you are buying a rotary or "classic" engine car. Why should I care? Sure, one might drive better, rev better, have more torque, be faster... yeah - whatever. All cars are different. Unless one of goals in my life is to have a rotaty engine car (which is not the case for me) - I should really not care much. HP really does not bother me. If the testdrive was good enough - well, it was GOOD ENOUGH.

It is the MPG that you get out of the HP that does. That tells me that the Renesis is just plain inefficient compared to the "normal" V6. Again, I should not have to care, right? So I am a bit puzzled by Mazda's marketing of this car ... I guess the fact that gas prices are going up these days does not help them...

Also, MPG is something that you discover after the test drive... seems like 15-16 MPG with "grandma" driving is a bit extensive...

Sorry, did not mean to "hijack" the thread for a different subject.

fxdsconv2000

Ok I can agree with the MPG issues. Personaly I get around 18 city and 23 Highway. Plus I just got the "L" map and so far it seems my City MPG is up. And I never drive like a "grandma" I hit the buzzer two to three times a day.

If I got crappy MPG, I would still love my car I just wouldn't be able to drive it as much and I'm sure it would **** me off everytime I filled it up.

PhineasFellOff

Fxdsconv,

If you are restating your criticism of zoomed's complaint in the other now-closed thread, be aware that your points are totally irrelevant to what zoomed said. It appears that you're on your own thought path, your own agenda, and the words someone else actually writes mean nothing to you.

If you are not restating your earlier criticism of zoomed, then you (and all the others on the bandwagon) are still off-base. You need to try to remain more objective and understand that the fact someone loves the way the RX8 drives and decides to purchase the car has NOTHING TO DO WITH whether or not a car manufacturer mistates the HP rating, not once but twice.

This is so mundane a point that I ask all the "bandwagon" people to please consult the many attorneys on this forum. I don't have that much respect for attorneys or their craft, but the ridiculously SIMPLE and OBVIOUS logic in my statement above would be right up their alley, and you should ask them to explain it to you. No opposing attorney would be stupid- indeed incompetent- enough to try to counter such simple logic.

fxdsconv2000

The real question is did they mistate the HP twice? Mazda is still stating 238 HP (from www.mazdausa.com "The RX-8 6-speed comes standard with all the performance and handling features available. This includes the 238 hp RENESIS engine")

The fact that people have put the RX-8 on chasis dynos and thier HP numbers are lower means very little. No one as far as I know has pulled thier motor and done a engine dyno so we don't know the independent test of Crank HP.

From what I've read on this forum the chasis dynos are subjective. Different brands show different numbers, some more conservitive then others. Then there is the drivetrain loss on the chasis dynos and so far I haven't seen an exact percentage to what this loss is. I've read 10%-15% on drive train loss.

I just don't like when people buy a car that they got to test drive, they liked it, they felt the HP, but then they put it on a machine and all of the sudden they feel like they got screwed and want to go after Mazda.

If the exact amount of HP is that big of deal you can always state in your sales contract that your purchase is dependent on dyno test and have the dealer put it on a dyno.

Ike

Numbers will be different on various dynos, and also conditions can vary, there certainly is no exact science to it. However, there is enough info out there to support that Mazda has lied twice about the hp of the car. There have been enough dynos and trips to the dragstrip to get a pretty good idea of what hp the car is actually making. Drivetrain lose with a RWD car is pretty standard within a couple percentage points. Don't act like chassis dynos are not a pretty good indication of actuall power at the crank, because they are. It's not always going to be right on but +/- 5 hp is about the variance you will see when you're talking cars in this HP range. All of the dynos to date seem to point to the car being around 220hp or lower, all of the trap speeds seem to indicate the same.

Am I angry about this? Not one bit. Had I bought the car even if I did like it enough to purchase and then later found out I didn't get what I paid for I probably would feel a little slighted, even if I did love the car. Say you go to a restaurant and paid for a dozen chicken wings, loved the wings and even filled up on them, but as you finish your last one you realize you only got 10 wings how would you feel? Some people might not care and be happy they had some good wings and filled their belly, but plenty of people would feel they didn't get what they paid for. I think you have to respect both schools of thought. Just because you, fxd, don't feel like you need those extra wings errr horsepower doesn't mean you should impose your views on others and tell them they shouldn't expect what they paid for.

Lastly, keep in mind how some testdrives are. Sometimes you really can't open up the car and see it's full potential, whether if be a courtesy to the salesperson, not wanting to run a new car hard, being in a car that isn't yours yet, or being in an unfamiliar car. There are a lot of variables here, and just because someone took a testdrive does not mean they got to experience the full potential of the car. So if some of these people feel the car falls a little short of expectations I understand, and think they have a legitimate gripe. Even if the car meets all your expectations wouldn't it be better if it had 20 more hp, especially if it's hp you paid for in the first place?

Ike

PhineasFellOff

How does the average buyer "feel" horsepower and compare it to a stated horsepower figure of 238?

Putting it in the contract and having the dealer put on a dyno is unrealistic and irrelevant. A second admission from Mazda is improbable. What's more probable is that Mazda works on ECU tweaks and gives update reflashes asap (such as the recent "L" ecu reflash=) and possibly cat tweaks in later years while keeping specifics hush. This is how the business world works.

Doesn't matter what the drivetrain loss really is. As I have stated in the other thread, plenty of people have used ridiculously high loss percentages and it still didn't quite hit 238 HP.

Go to the Racing Beat website. I believe they have used engine dynos. Obviously, Racing Beat would never disclose sensitive findings that might hurt Mazda without first consulting Mazda.

fxdsconv2000

I'm not imposing anything on anybody. I'm just stating my opinion, and that most people are tired of this issue.

The other point I'm trying to make is that Mazda made a mistake on the original HP numbers and they offered to buy those cars back. I find it hard to believe that Mazda again misstated the HP numbers. The only way we would know for sure is for some one to dyno exactly how Mazda did. Since different dynos show different numbers

Ike

Find it hard to believe all you like, but there's pretty overwhelming evidence that they did overstate the horsepower a second time. The dynos aren't even coming close to what they should be at the wheels for a 238bhp car no matter what dyno is used...

Broker73

ok , regardless of this whole HP thing which is so old now!
The 8 is plenty fast for comparable cars.......ie, a good buddy has a 2003 G35 C, and we have pulled side by side more than once. Last week the roads were dry, and he pulled up along side me. We haven't run the cars to full tilt from a stop, but I was in second going about 40mph, so RPM's where around 5K, we both floored it, and believe it or not, up until about my shift into 4mth, I was slightly pulling away. I was surprised, and so was he. He was working the car hard as well. So IKE, believe what you want, but maybe I should doubt his car puts down 287hp??
Now maybe driver shifting had something to do with it, but in the real world, there is little difference between these cars, expect better handling and interior style which I think the 8 has over his. Now granted this little run aonly lasted about 10 secs, I was pulling away very slighly, but that could be do to shifting at 9K, and him not shifting as hard, but he did say he was reving it as well?

Your not happy with acceleration? I guess it depends on what you are comparing it to? How many cars on the road can run with either of these? really, for the average driver, they do move.....but against a powerful V-6 or V-8, or 300HP EVO, yah they may feel lacking??? If you keep the 8 in the high RPM range, it has a nice pull, if you don't down shift, and floor it, it feels weak. I use to own a BMW330, and honda Prelude, and I know the 8 would pull away on both. The G35 may have more torque, but hard to tell based on my real world experience side by side runs.........thems the facts

fxdsconv2000

Ok so if we do horsepower numbers based off of the 1/4 track times posted on the forum. The horsepower ranges from 180-209 RWHP and all of the posted runs I looked at are "stock" cars.

Calculations based on 3000 Lbs.

So based off of these calculations is it possible with out driveline loss and a free flowing exhaust that the engine could be putting out 238?

Ike

I'm not going to call you a liar about the G35 vs. RX-8 but something just isn't right IMO. The car mag numbers, my butt dyno, my experience with doing some highway jaunts with both cars, and the trap speeds all say otherwise. Yes you should coubt the G35 is putting out 287hp, because it's not rated at that.

Smoke_Weed_RX-8

i say **** an hp rating, if you know how to drive you can preform in anything.

DemonRX-8

If you choose to believe that Mazda did not lie about 238, that's you perogative. But you do that in the face of some pretty damn convincing evidence to the opposite. And don't give me "take the engine out and dyno it at the crank" - that's not relevent, practical, or necessary to determine some reasonable ball park figures. Like Ike said, chassis dynos may not be 100% accurate, but they do have some merit. He may drive a Subaru, but he has a point. The alternative is to believe that Mazda doesn't lie and the drivetrain saps 25% of the engine's power. Hmmm . . .

If you accept that 238 is also overstated, then how else would we be able to get Mazda to do something about it? We've seen ample evidence of the power that can be gained by ECU remapping and using a hi-temp cat. Why should we have to pay big bucks to add these things just to get the hp that Mazda's already "sold" us? Sitting here content with our awesome car ain't gonna get it for us.

I also dispute that most forum members do not want to discuss this complaint. And if they do want to, so what? Don't read it if you don't want to. It seems that there are as many that want to discuss it as those that don't want to discuss it. I think it would be worthwhile even if Mazda only quietly makes changes to future models to address this issue.

P.S. Mods: I saw no reason to close the other thread - healthy disussion of a topic (it seems to me) is valuable to the site whether it's been discussed before or not. There's always room for more insight.

BillK

But the point is, you can whine all you want, you won't "get" Mazda to do anything.

If someone wants to gut an RX-8, put the Renesis on an engine dyno and prove the 238 HP figure is blatantly wrong, then file a class action lawsuit, more power to them. (Frankly, I'm surprised, as the $30K investment vs. the millions of dollars in lawyer's fees to be made seems like a good payback to me.)

But IMHO sitting around arguing about HP estimates is like the old "Who would win in a fight between (superhero 1) and (superhero 2)" - engaging to the participants but otherwise completely useless...

Smoke_Weed_RX-8

i think we've got 238 hp at the engine, but i do not think our rear wheel horse is directly comparable to that number.
but is's besides the point anyway. this car excells in so many more areas than an hp rating, even if we were lied to, it wouldn't matter. and if you've driven the car you know how sick and hybrid it really is, so "DON'T BITCH ABOUT THE 238"

Deca Auto

It seems people on this board love this car so much, they are quick to defend Mazda for selling them an underrated car. I just think Mazda and all other car manufacturers for that matter, should sell cars that live up to their claimed figures or better. I'm just waiting for car magazines to dyno test it and see some real numbers.

Oh and if anyone has seen how the transmission is set up on the RX8, you'd realize it shouldn't cause so much loss in HP. The tranny is mated directly to crank, then to the rear wheels via carbon fiber drive shaft.